Wikipedia:Tlatlahtoaloyan

De Wikipedia

Tabla de contenidos 1 Nahuatl Classica 2 Imagen 3 Ideas 4 About Nahuatl spelling 5 Yankwik yekihkwilotl 6 International Writing Contest 7 Wikimedia Collaboration 8 Sobre la ortografía 9 Estudio de WIkipedia Global 10 Nahuatl source content 11 Audio template 12 Stewards election 13 Saludos 14 Hoax: The Flowers Of Romance, please delete 15 Administrador y bloqueo 16 Localized date formats need to be verified 17 Ideas para neologismos 18 Ideas 19 Interwiki Bot Status 20 Wikimania 2007 Team Bulletin

[editar] Nahuatl Classica

I think that to avoid dialect problems, we should use Classical Nahuatl. It is not perfect for all Nahuatl speakers to understand, but it is also not recognising one dialect as better than the others. It also has a well-established literary history. Thus "Tlahtolmatiliztli" and not "Tlahtolmachiliztli".

I also think that perhaps we should make a few minor changes:

ci -> si
cu -> kw
ca -> ka
ce -> se
co -> ko
qu -> k
hu -> w
ch -> c
-u+iseltikakiztli -> -w+iseltikakiztli
j -> h (usually already done)

Thus the following sentence, "Naja nicnequi nicmartiz maquinohn tlayakanan icpanin tlin ninnekin ninchihuasque." would become "Naha nikneki nikmartiz makinohn tlayakanan ikpanin tlin ninnekin ninciwaske."

I think that the addition of new diacritical marks is too big of a change for people who might already be familiar with the classical orthography, and that even though syllable-final aspiration may not be distinguishable in writing from long vowels, fluent speakers will be able to tell this.

The changes I have proposed are mainly in the interest of one-to-one correspondences between phonemes and letters. I also think these changes are a good idea for any Native American languages that still use a hispanoform orthography, such as Quechua ("kecwa" in my proposed orthography), Guarani ("warani" in my proposed orthography), and Quiche [maya] ("kice" in my proposed orthography) It takes less space, and although the time it saves in reading may be just fractions of a second, it is easier for the brain to process (ie, instead of having to apply contextual rules to decide what sound a letter makes, the same letters always make the same sound).

--Node ue 05:19, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[editar] Imagen

Intenté bajar la foto "Imagen:Arana.jpg" desde http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araña pero el archivo que llegó está vacío (Image:Imagen:Arana.jpg). Desde mi actual computadora no puedo grabar el archivo del modo habitual. Si alguien baja la imagen de la araña, que nombre el archivo "Tocatl.jpg", por favor. - Piolinfax 11:08, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hola amigo. Arreglé la imagen. La bajé desde el wikipedia en inglés con el nombre tocatl. Estamos usando el software en inglés, eso quiere decir que para poner una imagen, hay que escribir [[image:nombre_de_la_imagen.XXX]], si quieres que la imagen aparezca sólo si hagas click, escribe [[media:nombre_de_la_imagen.XXX|Haga_click_o_que_sea_como_texto]] -- Youssefsan 04:03, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[editar] Ideas

Hola. Sabes cuando haces una busqueda con 'nahuatl' en google, encontras pronto Wikipedia. Tengo dos sugerencias :

• ¿Quieres que use en nah: un bot para poner enlaces de idiomas ?
• ¿Que tal si escribemos un anuncio en sitios sobre Linux en México para tratar de atraer usuarios ? No sé si va funcionar. Pero ¿cómo vez?--Youssefsan 07:11, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Salut/Niltze, mon ami/nocniuhtli! Un saludo muy especial. Ambas ideas me parecen muy buenas. Ahora mismo no puedo, pero en cuanto tenga un rato, si quieres (porque tal vez te apetezca hacerlo a ti), te redacto el anuncio y tú lo pones. Estoy intentando cambiar un poco la portada con la ayuda de las portadas catalanas y albanesa. Estoy tardando un poco porque desconozco muchos de los comandos pero poco a poco voy aprendiendo. El problema es traducir muchas de las cosas...de momento las dejo en castellano hasta que alguien más competente decida cómo modificarlas. En cuanto lo acabe, la cambio. (¡Ah!, te dejé un mensajín en http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Café, en la parte del cambio de software de la wiki gallega). Tlahzokamati por todo, colega. Vales tu peso en oro (muchísimo más, en realidad). ¡Y felices fiestas! - Piolinfax 05:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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Una pregunta -- veo que tienen 51 páginas en Nahuatl, pero ¿hay un lugar donde puedo ver una lista de las 51 páginas? Gracias / Tlaxkamati7 --Pablo

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[editar] About Nahuatl spelling

I write better in English, but will attempt to translate to Spanish and Nahuatl soon. --Pablo/Paul

Nahuatl orthography still hasn't found a good standardization, mainly because most people don't realize all the contrasts that should be shown. Furthermore, different forms of Nahuatl have slightly different phonology.

One suggestion is currently at User talk:Netza. I see only one major problem with Carochi's system: what happens when a long vowel precedes aspiration (I assume saltillo means aspiration here), as in pähtli (medicine)? For that reason, and because aspiration behaves like syllable-final consonants, I recommend writing an 'h' or a 'j' for aspiration.

There are, definitely, no glottalized long vowels in Nahuatl. The /a/ vowel in pahtli (medicine) is well attested as short (pätli = something melted/dissolved, lacks glottal stop; pähtli is morphophonemically impossible in Nahuatl). Nevertheless, this is not to imply that specifying aspiration/glottal-stop as a diacritic on a vowel (as Carochi suggests) is "better" than specifying it as a separate consonant (as you recommend, but using <h> instead of <j>). Some Nahuatl scholars, such as Karttunen, recommend the latter on the grounds that it better reflects the underlying structure of the language. However, other Nahuatl scholars recommend the former on the exact same grounds. --Danakil

(es:) Definitivamente, en Náhuatl no hay vocales largas glotalizadas. La vocal /a/ en pahtli (medicina) está bastante atestigüada como corta (pätli = algo derretido/disuelto, no lleva paro glotal; pähtli es morfofonémicamente imposible en Náhuatl). Sin embargo, esto no quiere decir que la especificación de la aspiración/paro-glotal mediante un diacrítico sobre vocal (como Carochi sugiere) es "mejor" que la especificación mediante una consonante separada (como recomiendas, pero utilizando <h> en vez de <j>). Algunos estudiosos del Náhuatl, como Karttunen, recomiendan el uso de la consonante argumentando que así se refleja mejor la estructura subyacente del lenguaje. Sin embargo, otros estudiosos recomiendan el uso del diacrítico basándose en precisamente el mismo argumento. --Danakil

Here are general requirements I recommend for any writing in Nahuatl:

1. Please distinguish between short and long vowels! This can be done in a number of ways, most of which are probably acceptable:

Totally agree. --Danakil

(es:) Totalmente de acuerdo. --Danakil

1. • Place a macron over long vowels, viz: Nāwatl. This is the best looking, as macrons traditionally mark long vowels. However, it is hard to typeset on any computer I've seen, so is inappropriate for (among other things) Wikis.
   • Place some other kind of mark over long vowels, viz: Näwatl or Nàwatl. This is easier to typeset on most computers, especially Mexican computers. This is a good solution.
   • Place an acute accent over long vowels, viz Náwatl. This is almost as good, except that I've met native speakers of Nahuatl who think short vowels sound more like they have an accent. So this is not quite as good as the other answers.
   • Place a colon immediately after a long vowel, viz Na:watl. This is another good solution.
   • Write two of the long vowel, viz Naawatl. This is a bad solution, because doubled vowels contrast against long vowels. The first part of tlaalaxtik (está liso) is not like the first part of tlälli (tierra)
2. I recommend never to use the word saltillo because it is used by some people to mean glottal stop, and by others to mean syllable-final aspiration.
3. Syllable-final aspiration is just that. It may affect the sound of the preceding vowel, but it acts just like any other syllable-final consonant, and should be marked with either an 'h' or a 'j' depending on your preference.
4. Word-final aspiration is extremely confusing in Huasteca Nahuatl (and possibly in other Nahuatl languages). I do not have a good answer for how to represent it, quite yet.

I agree that a W should be used instead of an HU (as in classical orthography), trying to keep two letters where one is sufficient as well as more logical and efficient is just trying to keep a Hispanicized orthography where it doesn't really suit the language well. The same goes for using a J instead of an H. to mark aspirants. I would suggest replacing CH with TX (as it is more logical), but I don't know how well received that would be.

but there are alternatives to w: u and v. u is workable because there is no need for a /u/ vowel graph, as it is always an allophone of phonemic /o/. --Danakil

(es:) pero hay alternativas a w: u y v. u es posible ya que no hay necesidad de un grafo vocálico para /u/, ya que este sonido es siempre un alófono del phonema /o/. --Danakil

Also, I think that macrons are the best idea for long vowels. If we *do* decide to use macrons, you don't have to worry about the keyboard problem because I can create a Windows keyboard layout for the chosen orthography free-of-charge.

A colon is *not* a good idea, because it would conflict with punctuation and be very confusing because anybody trying to read Nahuatl is most likely either expecting some sort of diacritic above long vowels rather than colons after them.

What exactly is wrong with using an H for word-final aspiration if one uses it for syllable-final aspiration?

Best wishes, Node

Niltze Node! Welcome to Wikipedia in Nahuatl. Thanks for your suggestions. We really need long discussions to fix, in the better possible way, some of the current drawbacks of Nahuatl as a written language and it is good having different kinds of opinion on the many topics about it.

You mention the need to make distinctions between long and short vowels in Nahuatl. I agree that vowel length is a relevant feature of the language but I think we really need the opinion of fluent Nahuatl speakers on the matter. Diacritics are not usually welcome in general if the written language can do well without them: there are many cases of this; for example, in Amharic (a thoroughly written language of Ethiopia since the 19th century) they use double consonants in speech in a way that changes meaning of the words and situations, but double consonants never appear in the written language; in Arabic, vowels are necessary in spoken language but they are scarcely represented (generally they are used only in the Koran and dictionaries); in Spanish (my mother tongue) stress is a relevant feature but a vast quantity of Spanish-speakers can do quite well without using it when writing and the message is 99.9% perfectly conveyed... There are more cases like this.

Anyway, I am not against using some kind of diacritic to mark vowel length, but I think we should listen to the points of view of as many Nahuatl-speakers as possible before settling any general rule. They are the ones who should decide if it is worth doing or it is not. - Tochpapalotl (Piolinfax) 10:59, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that a new letter be invented and used for the "tl" sound, so that people will no longer be tempted to pronounce this sound like the tl in "turtle". I think that the misconception among both english and spanish speakers that nahuatl words are to be pronounced this way is unfortunate and that it should be countered before it become even deeper rooted among the many well meaning people who are learning nahuatl. Elias Huitzilyn Huitzilyn@hotmail.com

Noihuan nicnomachtica nahuatl ihuan niquintemoa occenquintin tlacah aquique quinequih quiyeyecoasque nahuatl nohuan. Tla aca cacicamati inin ma nechtitlani netitlanilistli nican Huitzilyn@hotmail.com

• Navajo uses TŁ (lowercase tł) for that sound (or at least for a similar one). However, in the Navajo Nation people who don't know any navajo commonly write placenames with an l instead of ł, so it ends up getting pronounced like l.

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Naja nicnequi nicmartiz maquinohn tlayakanan icpanin tlin ninnekin ninchihuasque. Naja ta ihcuan nitzitzinin nihueli nan tlahtohli tlin otechcahuilitehquen tohtahnhuan.

tla itlan nihueliz ni mechpalehuiz, za nan nechtlahcuilohuilican. gelacio_mar@yahoo.com.mx

macehualtzin gelacio lazaro martinez

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I think we should decide now which spelling we are going to use. We have 84 pages now, if we have 100 the Nahuatl Wikipedia will be listed on the English Wikipedia main page at 'Wikipedias with over 100 articles', it's best to have a standard spelling then. My vote goes for the 'classical' Nahuatl spelling. Perhaps it has some illogical parts, but still it's the most used. It is also used in Nahuatl loan words in other languages (in almost all languages it's Mexico and not Mexiko, chocolate and not txoclate and Quetzalcoatl and not Kwetsalkoatl.

Another idea may be having two Nahuatl Wikipedias, a Nahuatl Huiquipedia and a Nawatl Wikipedia.--Mixcoatl 11:58, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It has already been decided. The policy is now to use Yankwik Nawa:tl orthography instead of Nahuatl Classica. It follows the basic principle of 1 sound = 1 letter:

• sh -> x (this is already in Nahuatl Classica, but some people don't use it)
• ch -> tx
• qu -> k
• ci/e -> si/e
• ca/co/cu/c -> ka/ko/ku/k
• cua/cui/cue/cuo -> kwa/kwi/kwe/kwo
• coa -> kwa
• long vowels/vocales largas/iseltikakizweyakeh: vowel/vocal/iseltikakiztl + :
• j -> h
• hu -> w

• As far as tl, this is left unresolved in Yankwik Nawa:tl, and that is a decision we must make now. The choices are: tλ, tl (same as classical orthography), tĺ, tļ, tŀ, tł, ƛ, or λ̷.

My vote would be for λ̷, because it is a single letter (unlike all others except ƛ), and because it can be capitalised (ƛ cannot); when capitalised it looks like Λ̷. However, this might not be such a good solution because it is probably better to limit it to ASCII. Another option is tkl or tlx, however these are inaccurate phonetically. Probably the best option is tλ because even though the second character isn't ASCII, it can be typed easily using HTML character entities. Another possibility is using just λ. If we really need an ASCII solution, we can use something similar to λ instead of λ itself, for example v (capital λ upside down looks like a V).

So my vote is for either tl or v.

--Node ue 01:51, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Node Ue, you said: "It has already been decided. The policy is now to use Yankwik Nawa:tl orthography instead of Nahuatl Classica." Yankwik Nawa:tl is a clear system but may be not quite good to reflect the huge variety of dialectal Nahuatl, and Nahuatl is not yet an engineered language like many standarized ones previously were. Anyway who decided it? -[[User:Piolinfax|Tochpapalotl (Piolinfax)]] 11:40, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This policy has been decided on through e-mail by me and some fluent speakers who have either written some pages or have indicated on this or other pages that they are interested. The reason is because Yankwik Nawa:tl matches the SEA orthography which children are being taught at school and which is standard now, with a couple of exceptions, "tx" instead of "ch" (removal of an unnessecary extra), and using : to indicate long vowels instead of writing the vowel twice to remove ambiguities since in SEA orthography a double vowel is used to indicate both long vowels and two subsequent short vowels. Regarding dialectal Aztec, there *is* a standard which is modeled on the Classical form (not using the same orthography though). --Node ue 05:48, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That sounds interesting. Could you provide more information about it? Maybe it would be a good idea if you selected some relevant bits of your correspondence and added them here (maybe with a link to one subpage of your user's page or something like that). So far, Ken moikwiloa nawatl and/or Yankwik Nawatl seem to be preferable if they are being widely used. Anyway, choosing new spellings not widely used so far (e.g.: the spelling "tx") may be just "adding more noise to the confusing system". Besides, if we follow the policy 1 phoneme (better than one sound) + 1 letter it should be checked if Nahuatl speakers perceive this sound as one or two ("ch" in "chirp" may be perceived by an English speaking person as t+ʃ (en:IPA), but, for example, in Spanish "ch" in "nacho" it is perceived as only one [and actually is not the same the English standard (bi)phoneme; it's c+ʃ (en:IPA, c=palatal oclusive). The same may be true as well for "tz/ts". Do they perceive it as one only consonant or as two consonants put together? If they perceive one, one option would be "c" (as, for example, in Malay) for "ch/tx" and "z" for "tz/ts". Anyway, I don't like my last proposal either, I think that pushing the 1 phoneme = 1 letter policy (which I find to be a basically good one) to the extreme may not be a very useful thing. Personally, I find the using of the semicolon a bit awkward. Probably it would be a better option (when necessary) an easy diacritic that could be found in any Mexican standard keyboard. I don't think it is a good idea creating new spellings when there are already plenty of them (many quite easy and clear) to choose from. Probably is better to follow Ken moikwiloa nawatl and/or Yankwik Nawatl as much as possible- [[User:Piolinfax|Tochpapalotl (Piolinfax)]] 11:36, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I still can't totally understand what the problem with the spelling tl is. Of course it doesn't show a "real pronounciation" but the same happens with the spelling in most of the known languages: only one example(between several probable hundreds); does "ch" sound in Italian, English, Spanish or French like the addition of the typical sound of "c+h" in those languages? No. If I want to learn Welsh and I come across the spelling "ll", I may think that it is pronounced like an "l", like an Spanish "ll", etc. but unless I hear to people pronouncing it (on tapes or otherwise) or I can understand the phonetical guiding from my learning source I shouldn't assume any pronounciation guided by the mere look of it. The same should happen to anyone trying to learn Nahuatl: one should be aware that spelling is just a convention. Trying to change such a stable, easy and traditional option as tl on the phonetic grounds that it is misleading seems to me a little too much. Should we complain about the misleading (for us) spelling of some Inupiaq sounds? What about the misleading English spelling gh or oo. Is misleading that in Polish rz and ż are pronounced the same way? Historical reasosns are important. The spelling tlhappens to be one of the only spellings that seems to have been kept in most of the classical and current written Nahuatl texts (except in many linguistic studies were several phonetic scripts are used) virtually untouched. -[[User:Piolinfax|Tochpapalotl (Piolinfax)]] 19:59, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As I noted before, an option is to use "tl", but the problem with it is it doesn't fit a principle of 1 letter = 1 sound. Since it is currently used in all daily-use orthographies and the sound can be approximated roughly by a "t" followed by an "l", it is probably not a good idea to drop it but this was suggested by one person in the group. --Node ue 05:48, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

> Anyway who decided it? That's a good question, I can't see where amd by who the 'nawatl' spelling was officially decided. --Mixcoatl 21:59, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have a good question too, do you know any Aztec at all? "Quetzalcoatl and not Kwetsalkoatl" (a quote of yours) indicates an imperfect understanding of the sounds of the language since it would be in YN as "Ketzalkoatl", WITHOUT a w. If it were to be converted as kwe, it would be written in classical orthography as cue, and I would find it hard to believe if you tried to say anybody ever wrote a word "cuetzalcoatl". Regarding loans in general though, why is this of concern if the primary use of orthography is for writing a language in an everyday setting? Speakers of a language should not be concerned about how foreigners have written words borrowed from their language when they write the language in an everyday environment. If this were a worry, many languages would be using very different orthographies today, for example the standard Mandarin romanisation system is now HanYu PinYin (pronounced like Spanish "jáñu pín-in", not "jañu píñin"), but English borrowings such as Tai Chi, Mao Tsetung, Kuomintang, Taipei, Lao Tse, etc. use Wade-Giles romanisation, also for example in Central/Southern Arizona, placenames from O'odham are spelled, for example, "Ak Chin", "On Auk Mor", "San Xavier del Bac", "Gila Bend", and even "Arizona", using different older orthographies (the first one uses Saxton orthography, all the others use much older orthographies, in modern orthography they would be: Ak Cin, Onk Akimel, Va:k Cekṣanĭ ["Cekṣanĭ" means "district", not "San Xavier del"], Hila Vi:n, and Al Ṣon). --Node ue 05:48, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm coming into this discussion a little bit late, but is there a good reason why the first letter of each sentence (and each individual's name, I guess) has to be capitalized? The difference between lowercase and uppercase characters being so marked, you'd think that its use could be better employed than it has it been.

And, for that matter, why use macrons to represent long vowels when you could just as well hold the Shift key down, and capitalize your vowels where you find them, so they come out in uppercase form, in the best and most appropriate place to pronounce them?

And as for the glottal stop, you could always use the backward 'c' character (admittedly not readily displayed in today's HTML-centric internet, but if you are in the habit of writing your own laserprinter fonts - a fairly easy thing to do if you avoid "Windows" like a plague - it's a piece of cake) to represent it. Or you could just use the uppercase H character to represent a glottal stop, and not worry about funny characters that HTML stumbles on.

So, if you want to mark your vowels 'long,' just hold the Shift key down. It is much easier (and that much more attractive) than using a macron, acute, or grave diacritical mark.

[editar] Yankwik yekihkwilotl

Onikiteixpaniktlali in yekihkwilotl ipan Wikipedia:Yekihkwilotl, iwan oniktlali in ineyolapanaloniwan ipan Wikipedia_talk:Yekihkwilotl. Nametxontlatlawlatia ma kinalmamikilis.

He puesto una propuesta para la ortografía en el artículo Wikipedia:Yekihkwilotl, y doy las razones en Wikipedia_talk:Yekihkwilotl. Por favor apóyenla.

I've proposed an ortography at the Wikipedia:Yekihkwilotl, and the reasons are at Wikipedia_talk:Yekihkwilotl. Please accept it.

--Netza 07:56, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[editar] International Writing Contest

Hello everybody,

In Berlin at Dezember 2004 there was the critique that there is not enough connection in the work of all the different Wikipedias in their different languages. I think, that an internationally linked writing contest should be one possible chance to cooperate and work together. At March 1st there will be the start of the second writing contest in the german Wikipedia so I thought, we can start it as an international project. There had bee contests in the Wikipedia of the Netherlands nl:Wikipedia:Schrijfwedstrijd, the german Wikipedia de:Wikipedia:Schreibwettbewerb and the english one and as far as I could see it, it worked really good.

I hope you will join the Contest, please visit meta:International writing contest to find out more. -- 149.225.56.90 09:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) (Achim Raschka aka Necrophorus)

[editar] Wikimedia Collaboration

A new attempt to get the Wikimedia community to collaborate on multi-lingual tasks is the Wikimedia Collaboration of the Week. Please see the page on meta for details. It would be great if you could translate the following and encourage editors here to work on the help pages in this language. The text below is from en:Template:Wm-cotw and will be updated every week. Thanks. Angela 20:10, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Sobre la ortografía

Saludos. Mi opinión es que una enciclopedia no es realmente el lugar adecuado para ensayar propuestas ortográficas. Y me parece que no es sólo mi opinión, pues es una política establecida de Wikipedia que éste no es el lugar para propuestas experimentales, sino que la Wikipedia es un proyecto que meramente se limita a reportar los usos establecidos y el conocimiento establecido, y creo que esto es aplicable a querer escribir la Wikipedia de un idioma en una ortografía nueva o experimental en lugar de en la ortografía ya establecida y tradicional para ese idioma.

Hay mil y un propuestas para reformar la ortografía inglesa (incluso existe un alfabeto inventado específicamente para el inglés, el shaviano), de carácter fonémico y hecho a medida de las características particulares de esta lengua), y también las hay para reformar la ortografía española. Sin embargo, ninguna de tales ha sido implementada en la Wikipedia correspondiente, sino que se sigue la ortografía tradicional, no importa los muchos problemas que tenga, lo poco bien que refleje la realidad fonémica del idioma, la presencia de dígrafos o de letras con diversas pronunciaciones, o lo muy en desacuerdo con la misma que pueda estar una parte de sus hablantes; es la ortografía establecida y por tanto la que es pertinente usar para escribir en la Wikipedia.

En el caso del náhuatl, les podrá gustar o no gustar, les podrá parecer adecuada o inadecuada, les podrá no convencer que se basase en la ortografía española —igualmente se podría argumentar que las nuevas ortografías están inspiradas en la ortografía inglesa o que dan una apariencia demasiado "germánica" con tanta k y w; además, dado que el náhuatl es una lengua muy distinta del español, la ortografía clásica pese a compartir ciertas convenciones con la ortografía española genera un feeling propio y posee un look autónomo y fácilmente reconocible (esa abundancia de tl, tz, uh... tiene un sabor decididamente a náhuatl y no para nada a español). El hecho innegable, no obstante, es que la única ortografía que puede calificarse de "tradicional", "estándar" o "establecida" para el náhuatl es la ortografía clásica, contando con una tradición de siglos y siendo la única que resulta familiar para cualquiera (sea hablante de náhuatl o no), al ser la que han llevado consigo los préstamos del náhuatl a otras lenguas y al ser la que se utiliza por ejemplo en los nombres de los dioses aztecas (todo el mundo reconoce instantáneamente la ortografía "Quetzalcoatl", mientras que una gran mayoría se quedaría perplejo ante "Ketsalkoatl"). Cierto es que la ortografía clásica no es un estándar unitario, habiendo ligeras variaciones, pero comparten lo esencial y las variaciones son comparables a las existentes entre la ortografía inglesa británica y la estadounidense.

Además, por otra parte está el problema de que el náhuatl no es una sola lengua, sino un grupo de lenguas estrechamente emparentadas (el Ethnologue lista hasta 28 lenguas náhuatl, basándose en el criterio de no inteligibilidad mutua), y la única variedad que tiene la capacidad de no crear rencillas o acusaciones de pretender que la mía es la mejor entre los hablantes de las otras es el náhuatl clásico, precisamente por no ser actualmente la lengua nativa de ninguno y por ser la lengua de la que descienden las variedades actuales.

Un caso similar sería tratar de hacer una Wikipedia en "lengua romance": la única manera de poner de acuerdo a los hablantes de español, francés, italiano, rumano, etc., sería usar el latín, lengua madre de todas ellas y lengua nativa de ninguno en la actualidad, lo que la dota del carácter de tronco común y opción neutra para todos los hablantes de lenguas romances. Para el caso del náhuatl, esta solución es mucho más fácil de llevar a la práctica, dado que el latín y las lenguas romances modernas están separadas por dos milenios, mientras que al náhuatl clásico sólo lo separa medio milenio de las lenguas náhuatl modernas, por lo que es mucho más similar a éstas de lo que el latín lo es del español o el francés, no requiriendo pues de un gran esfuerzo por parte de los hablantes de las lenguas náhuatl modernas para ser capaces de manejarse en la lengua clásica. Otro ejemplo similar lo tenemos con el árabe estándar frente a los árabes coloquiales (mutuamente ininteligibles: un iraquí tiene problemas muy serios para entenderse con un marroquí si hablan en sus respectivos mal llamados dialectos; es por ello el Ethnologue lista hasta 35 lenguas árabes distintas). La Wikipedia en árabe no está escrita pues ni en árabe marroquí, ni en árabe iraquí, ni en árabe yemení... ni siquiera en árabe egipcio (que es la lengua árabe coloquial más difundida), sino en árabe estándar moderno —esto es, una versión del árabe clásico (el coránico) actualizada a las necesidades (especialmente de vocabulario) de la sociedad actual, como el latín moderno que utiliza hoy el Vaticano es una versión actualizada del latín clásico que empleaban los romanos. Este árabe estándar moderno es la lengua que, sin ser el idioma nativo de ninguno de ellos, sirve de vehículo común de comunicación entre los distintos pueblos árabes.

Por tanto, creo que la Wikipedia en náhuatl, al menos la principal, debería estar escrita en náhuatl clásico y con la ortografía clásica. Luego, si acaso, sería posible crear otras Wikipedias para cada uno de los modernos idiomas náhuatl, lenguas distintas tanto de la clásica como entre sí (al igual que el español y el italiano, aunque sean mutuamente inteligibles en un elevado tanto por ciento, son lenguas distintas y cada una tiene su Wikipedia). Estas lenguas náhuatl modernas, a diferencia de la lengua clásica, son las que sí que no tienen una ortografía realmente establecida aún (de ahí toda la discusión entre sus hablantes sobre si habrán de escribirse así o asá), por lo que para ellas no hay impedimento en emplear una ortografía de nuevo cuño. 213.37.6.156 18:04, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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A question / una pregunta:

Is Nahuatl your native language? / Es Nahuatl su lingua materna?

Perhaps you don't realise that few Nahuatl speakers today use the traditional orthography. Most use the SEP orthography, which is the basis for most proposals here, most of which are very similar.

The SEP orthography dispenses with the silly and ambiguous "c" and replaces it with s and k, it dispenses with the unnessecary q, it replaces the z with s (for what reason, I do not know, but it appears to be more used this way), in some cases j and h are switched although this is a point of confusion in SEP orthography; the w is added as a semivowel to replace confusing vowel combinations.

Nahuatl speakers care little whether "todo el mundo" recognises "quetzalcoatl". They write their language for themselves, not "el resto del mundo". It is easier for them to write "ketsalkoatl". They don't care what outsiders like you tell them, "you should retain classic orthography" and such, although university professors and ameteures "language-learners" have been advocating forr this for a very long time.

Netza and I proposed only minor changes from the SEP orthography, the main one is replacing "ch" with "tx". I proposed marking all long vowels (probably with a colon), while Netza proposed marking only minimal pairs (pares minimos). Netza's proposal, when regarding "pares minimos", drew some fire from people who appear to be native speakers, while my proposal, when regarding "uso de las letras 'z' y 's'", drew some fire from the same people. So it appears that this Wikipedia is planned to procede using SEP orthography, using "h" where some (though not all) people use "j", "tx" where many people use "ch" (although some people already use "tx" due to 'folk-simplification'), marking all long vowels (rather than just minimal pairs), and trying to use something close to a classical grammar and vocabulary rather than a modern, more dialectally-fragmented form.

Node

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Did you care to read anything of what I said?

Firstly, exactly how is the spelling "Ketsalkoatl" easier than "Quetzalcoatl"? On the one hand, like it or not, modern Nahuatl speakers are living in a Spanish-dominated society, and must learn Spanish and Spanish orthography in order to thrive economically, many becoming literate only in Spanish; thus, the spelling conventions of classical orthography are more familiar-looking to Mexicans than any new Germanic-looking orthography. On the other hand, in Spanish you cannot tell the orthography of a word from its pronunciation (less so in English or French), because for example phoneme /b/ is sometimes spelled "b" and sometimes "v", while in classical Nahuatl orthography that's not a problem because phoneme /k/ is always spelled "qu" before front vowels (e/i) and "c" before back vowels (a/o), phoneme /s/ is always spelled "c" before front vowels and "z" before back vowels (the variant "ç" for both may also be found and "z" may also be used before e/i, but it makes no difference, unlike choosing between "b" and "v" in Spanish), phoneme /w/ is always spelled "hu" when syllable-initial and "uh" when syllable-final, phoneme /ts/ is always spelled "tz" in any position, etc. Thus, your argument that learning to spell "Quetzalcoatl" is supposedly difficult has no real basis: it's a straightforward application of the rules, while learning to spell "vaca" in Spanish is a rote-memorization task because the spelling "baca" is pronounced the same but has a quite different meaning, not to mention English "write" which sounds the same as "rite", "right" and "wright". Classical Nahuatl orthography is a dream to learn compared to Spanish orthography, let alone English or French orthographies.

Secondly, it's actually irrelevant whether classical Nahuatl orthography is "easy" or "difficult", just like it's irrelevant whether standard Spanish and English orthographies are "easy" or "difficult". The relevant point is that, because of an expressly stated policy, Wikipedia is not the place to question existing standards nor to test new proposals; Wikipedia uses and reports already established standards, and the only well-established, traditional and widely-recognized standard for spelling Nahuatl is classical orthography, like it or not. If you choose to ignore the established, widely-used standard, and instead procede to write the Nahuatl Wikipedia using a newly devised orthography of your own or a local standard which has not been widely-adopted elsewhere (like that used by the SEP), you're infringing a basic Wikipedia policy.

Thirdly, the word Nahuatl, when unqualified, refers by default to Classical Nahuatl, which is by far the most important Nahuatl language and the only one which is and has been widely studied and taught and used in written form, and the one people all around the world talk about 99% of the times when they use the word "Nahuatl". Modern Nahuatl speakers do not actually speak Nahuatl (i.e. Classical Nahuatl), they speak one of a bunch of modern Nahuatl languages which have derived through some five centuries of change from Classical Nahuatl, each one of them being different from the others and from Classical Nahuatl (Guerrero Nahuatl is not the same language as Orizaba Nahuatl, for example, even though they are close relatives and the speakers of each one may understand the speakers of the other to a high degree, just like speakers of Sicilian may understand speakers of Neapolitan to a high degree). Thus, if the speakers of a modern Nahuatl language want to create a Wikipedia for them in their native language, instead of one in Classical Nahuatl, the domain name nah.wikipedia.org is not the appropriate place for it, just like the domain name it.wikipedia.org is not the appropriate place to write in Sicilian or in Neapolitan instead of in standard Italian, or just like en.wikipedia.org is not the appropriate place to write in Ebonics or in Scots instead of in standard English. The domain nah.wikipedia.org is for a Wikipedia in the most important of the Nahuatl languages, i.e. Classical Nahuatl, and of course using the established conventions for that language (i.e. classical orthography), and it is intended for anyone who has learned or is interested in that ancient language regardless of his/her native tongue, and everyone, including all modern Nahuatl speakers, is an "outsider" regarding Classical Nahuatl because there are no native speakers of Classical Nahuatl left, just like in the case of Old English, Latin or Ancient Greek. If speakers of modern Nahuatl languages are not interested in Classical Nahuatl, they can leave the task of creating the Classical Nahuatl Wikipedia to other people who are interested in that ancient language, just like in the case of the Latin Wikipedia which is not solely nor mostly being created by (nor by any means for) speakers of modern Romance languages. If you happen to be a native speaker of a modern Nahuatl language, say, Orizaba Nahuatl, and want a Wikipedia in your native language, you may file a petition for the domain name "nah-orizaba.wikipedia.org" or "nah-zongolica.wikipedia.org" (or else "nah-nlv.wikipedia.org" or "nlv.wikipedia.org" using the SIL code for the language), and there you'll be free to (and should) leave aside Classical Nahuatl orthography, grammar and vocabulary and use the grammar and vocabulary of Orizaba Nahuatl and the orthography most commonly used to write that language (which for example happens to be one where "w" is used instead of "hu").

213.37.6.156 19:54, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. I will ask you again, are you a native speaker?

As has been said elsewhere here, the most commonly-used orthography by actual speakers of Nahuatl is the SEP orthography. Your comments about Spanish are very linguistically imperialistic and are typical of people who try to force things on the native speakers of a language.

Also, how much time has past since "Classical Nahuatl" and today? Perhaps about 500 years, right? This, then, does not quite qualify as an "ancient" language.

Let's look at other ancient languages: "Gothic", used until about 600 AD in Gothland, and about 1700 in the Crimea... (Crimean Gothic is not considered to be ancient) "Old English", generally classified as English until 900 AD or so... that's over 1100 years. "Classical Chinese", spoken natively into perhaps 100 AD at the latest... 1900 years. "Hebrew"... last natively spoken (before revival) in perhaps 300 AD... 1700 years...

Now, some standard versions of modern languages, especially those which have fragmented into an array of dialects, are actually older versions of the spoken language at a time when the dialects were still relatively unified, generally between 300 and 700 years ago. Sometimes, the standard is simply the speech of the capital, but in languages where there is much dialectal pride and a low rate of native language education, this isn't a very good idea as people will likely just ignore it.

As I noted before, the SEP orthography is more widely used than your wonderful spectacular amazingly uniquely beautifully Aztec, Classical orthography, and it is used in primary education. It is hardly "new" or "unestablished". Like it or not, the SEP orthography is the only orthography that is already well-established.

Please don't lecture me about Na:watlahtoli as if I had never heard of it before. You are the ameteur here claiming to speak for native speakers, while I claim no expertise and go with what native speakers have said.

You are talking about how easy the ortografia classica is to learn, but you do not realise my point. It may be a dream in comparison to English or French orthography (French is easy to read but difficult to transcribe), your comparison to Spanish is ridiculous as there is actually a difference between "b" and "v" in many peoples' pronunciation. My point is that rather than having to learn positional pronunciation (ie, c is read differently in 'ce' and 'ca') and digraphs (qu, ch, hu, ua), it is much easier to learn a system where one letter corresponds to one sound, as it is in the widely-used SEP system (with the exception of "tl" and "ch", "ch" having been replaced in "yankwik na:watl"). Thus, the digraphs and positional pronunciations of "Quetzalcoatl" are totally eliminated in "Ketsalkoatl", which is actually a bit shorter.

Node

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I will repeat it again: there are no native speakers of Classical Nahuatl left, get it? The speakers of modern Nahuatl languages are speakers of different languages and don't have any more say about Classical Nahuatl than "outsider" Classical Nahuatl scholars.

Don't you think perhaps speakers of modern Aztecan languages can understand Classical Nahuatl a bit better than you can? They are different, yes, but not by as much as you paint the situation. There is still a chance of expecting people to read and write in C. Nahuatl, but speak in their local Aztecan languages.

I think it's already clear it's not possible to try to argue with someone who answers with "bla bla bla" and puts in my mouth things I have never said (that thing about the "wonderful spectacular amazingly uniquely beautifully Aztec, Classical orthography"). Classical Nahuatl is the most important Nahuatl language and the established, traditional orthography for it is the classical orthography (which is not to say it is perfect nor anything along those lines, it's just to say it's the traditional, well-established standard); to deny this is to deny facts.

What on earth are you talking about? You talked in your original posts about how recognisably, uniquely Aztec the Classical orthography is, while criticising the "Germanic" look of the modern orthography. How do you judge that Classical Nahuatl is the most important? How many people speak it? Oh wait, right, that number is a huge 0. So then how can it be more important than those Aztecan languages which have tens of thousands of speakers? And why do you have such a problem trying to unify all Aztecan languages under one written standard? So far, all Nahuatl speakers who have inputted on this have viewed it positively, do you speak Nahuatl? I don't, but at least I value input by those who do.

You keep on talking about the modern Nahuatl languages, and about a supposed "conspiration" by "outsiders" to "impose" classical orthography on those languages, which, apart from false (I couldn't care less how the native speakers of the modern languages choose to spell their languages), is completely irrelevant to this conversation, because this is not the domain name for those languages; this is the domain name for a Wikipedia in Classical Nahuatl, because that is by miles far the most important Nahuatl language (like it or not), and not the domain name for a Wikipedia in any of the many modern Nahuatl languages which are different languages

Again, where do you get the idea that it is most important? Where does it say that "nah:" is the ISO code for Classical Nahuatl? Nowhere. It is labelled simply "Nahuatl" and is all-encompassing, just as "sq" covers 3 different Albanian languages.

(BTW, not all languages change at the same rate: Spanish has remained virtually unchanged during the past 500 years while English has undergone major changes especially in pronunciation; languages spoken by small "isolated" communities, like Nahuatl, tend to split into different languages at a much quicker rate and the modern Nahuatl languages have diverged from Classical Nahuatl enough to be classed as several dozen different languages by the SIL)

Hah! Spanish has remained virtually unchanged? SIL classifies it as 5 different languages: Caló, Extremaduran, Ladino, Castillian, and Loreto-Ucayali. I am well aware that languages change at different rates. SIL even considers more than 3 versions of "English", and if you count pidgin and creole languages, they consider more than 20.

If you want to use the SEP orthography and the vocabulary and grammar of some modern Nahuatl language, instead of Classical Nahuatl and its classical orthography, I have already told you what you have to do: ask for the appropriate domain name for that language. Otherwise you're infringing a Wikipedia policy and I will report it on MetaWiki.

This is not just my decision, it has been decided already by a MAJORITY. It is not against policy, it is not original research, and "nah" is for "Nahuatl", not "Classical Nahuatl". If you want to know how Nahuatl is defined, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl_language . I also don't see what's wrong with writing Classical Nahuatl in SEP orthography - it has been done over and over again by people and agencies that do not want to bother with drafting multiple documents in different Aztecan languages and so opt instead to use Classical Nahuatl grammar and vocabulary with SEP orthography. This approach is even used sometimes by the SEP itself.

BTW, as for distinguishing the pronunciation of "b" and "v" in Spanish:

"La /v/ labiodental se articula solamente en casos de afectación o pedantería. Está quizás más generalizada en el Plata y en Paraguay. No ha sido registrada ni siquiera en los anglicismos del español en Nuevo Méjico, lo que refuerza la opinión de que era ya un sonido desconocido del español de los siglos XV y XVI".

The fact that you quote from a source who uses "Méjico" only reënforces my perception of your linguistic imperialism and colonialist behaviour - colonialists clearly believe that Classical Nahuatl is very important and good and that modern nahuatl is merely some patois.

Anyhow, I'm not talking about a labiodental but rather a voiced bilabial fricative, /β/. --.

(Labiodental /v/ is pronounced only in cases of affectation and pedantry. It is perhaps more wide-spread in el Plata and Paraguay. It hasn't even been documented in the anglicisms of New Mexico Spanish, which reinforces the opinion that it was already an unknown sound in 15th and 16th century Spanish.)

Quote from: Alonso Zamora, Vicente "Dialectología española", chapter "Español de América", p. 329. Ed. Gredos, Madrid, 1960

213.37.6.156 05:40, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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• Estoy de acuerdo en que la ortografía que se deba de mantener para este idioma, sea la clásica, ya que creo que es mejor aceptada la tradición de su escritura, que las reglas impuestas. Como he leído en otros comentarios yo no veo la dificultad en seguir escribiendo el náhuatl como se ha hecho durante los últimos cinco siglos, por el contrario creo que entre los nahuablantes, el cambio de escritura crea una confusión haciendo intentendible para ellos mismos la lectura de los textos antiguos en esta lengua ya que utilizan un alfabeto distinto.--Ricardo 23:04, 20 Tlamactlihuanonti 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Estudio de WIkipedia Global

Hola. Estoy estudiando el comunidad de Wikipedia global, especialmente los comunidades de idiomas indigenas. Me gustaria entrevistar a gente de este comunidad. Si te interesa, por favor ve a : http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/AY2005/cs6470_spring/researchstudy/webconsent_wikipedia_study1.html Gracias Mcm

Hi there. I am a graduate student at Georgia Tech studying the global aspect of Wikipedia with a special interest in indigneous languages. If you are interested in being interviewed, please read the study description and consent form at : http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/AY2005/cs6470_spring/researchstudy/webconsent_wikipedia_study1.html Thanks! Mcm

[editar] Nahuatl source content

Source content from w:James Lockhart's "Nahuatl as Written" is now available on [1]; in particular, at the Nahuatl Main Page. We should probably decide on the right way to translate "Main Page" into Nahuatl, and apply that name both here and there. SJ 19:44, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Audio template

Hi, I am making audio recordings of the pronunciation of words. Example; Media:Nl-be guy verhofstadt.ogg To include this in a good way in your wiki I need to know what your audio template is and how it works. When I know it i, and many others, can put it directly inside articles on your wikipedia.

Can some one please put your audio template on this page;

• commons:List of the different audio-templates for the Wikipedias

Greetings, nl:gebruiker:Walter

[editar] Stewards election

Hello,

The stewards election has started on m:Stewards/elections 2005. Anyone can vote provided that he has a valid account on meta with a link to at least one user page, on a project where the editor is a participant, with at least 3 months participation to the project. Stewards can give sysop right on projects where there are no local bureaucrate. Please vote ! Yann 16:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

PS: Please translate this. Thanks. Yann 16:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Saludos

Estoy interesado en crear algunas plantillas babel para esta wikipedia pero necesito saber como se escribe: "usuarios por idioma" tal vez sea algo con las palabras "tlatitlanini" y "tlakatlahtol" pero no estoy seguro

saludos--Mnts 08:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Hoax: The Flowers Of Romance, please delete

Sorry, i don't speak the language of this Wikipedia. However i would like to inform you that the Article The Flowers Of Romance is an hoax, see [2] and commons:Commons:Village_pump#Hoax Article in 57 languages -- de:Benutzer:Kju 19:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Administrador y bloqueo

Hola. Veo que no tenemos ningun administrador aquí [3] Alguń voluntario ?. Pienso que necesitamos al menos uno. También propongo que bloqueemos la portada hasta que tengamos más usuarios porque muchas veces se agregan enlaces a sitios feos. Qué opinan ?--Youssefsan 10:01, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Localized date formats need to be verified

Dear Wikipedians,

I need your help to look at date formats for your language. I created a large list of formats here. Please take a look and fix any mistakes or add any new formats. This will help interwiki bot to match en:April 1, fr:1 avril, ru:1 апреля, zh:4月1日, and all other sites together.

What's needed: Look here at every format for your language, fix any mistakes, note any exceptions (some languages have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc naming schemas, or year 1 is written as '1 (year)' unlike all other years).

Also, I would like to receive a bot status on your site for my bot User:YurikBot. It will be mostly involved in interwikies.

Thank you!!!

You can contact me at en:Yurik (--70.192.56.68 22:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC))

[editar] Ideas para neologismos

Bona tarda. Bon vèspre.

Soy un wikipedista de la Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure en català y de la Oiquipedià, l'enciclopedia liura en occitan. Soy de Barcelona y por tanto domino a la perfeccion tanto el castellano como el catalan, y hablo ingles frances y occitano. Me gusta mucho cultivar mi lengua (català) y aprender mi lengua hermana en inmimente peligro de extincion (occitan) y por tanto quiero hablarlas lo mejor posible. Pero en el catalan los castellanismos crecen dia a dia y llegará un dia en que nuestra lengua, debido a tanto castellanismo, acabará absorbida por el castellano. Se calcula que son dos siglos para que desaparezca aun teniendo 11 millones de hablantes y siento oficial en la Comunitat Autònoma de Catalunya, Comunitat Valenciana, Illes Balears y en el pais de Andorra. También los neologismos son un peligro para las lenguas.

Por eso, no quiero que pase lo mismo con las demas lenguas. Tengo una idea sobre los neologismos.

Por ejemplo, internet. Que quiere decir internet, red "internacional" mas o menos ,no ? Pues en castellano se deberia llamar INTERRED, en catalan INTERXARXA, en occitano INTERMALHUM y así respectivamente. No creeis? Como seria por ese metodo internet en nahuatl?

Muchisima suerte y luchen por sus derechos en america! Moltíssima sort i lluïtin pels seus drets a amèrica! Fòrça astre e luchatz per los drechs vòstres en america!

• Niltze

Estoy de acuerdo contigo, creo hay algunas palabras que realmente sí pueden traducirse y no hay necesidad de recurrir a nuevos términos para definir algún objeto. Si no me equivoco sí hay un término que puede crease para definir internet sería con las palabras mátlatl que es red y, no estoy seguro si es correcto, combinarla con cemanáhuatl que es mundo (fara formar red mundial), ya que no he encontrado una traducción para internacional; otra traducción podría ser con la definición de "red de redes" utilizando la palabra mátlatl. --Ricardo 02:45, 21 Tlamactlihuanonti 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Ideas

Ingles/Español

Es estado leyendo algunas discusiones en esta pagina y me molesta mucho la falta de respeto y vision que muchas personas han demostrado. La cuestion ortografica es importante sin duda, pero no hay necesidad de rebajar. No hay que olvidar el contexto de la obra. Esto es una enciclopedia, pero tambien es la coleccion de textos modernos y originales en nahuatl mas grande en la internet. ¡No hay que olvidar esto! Tampoco debemos de olvidar que nahuatl no es idioma muerto, que gente aun lo habla, y que algun dia, sea en 5 años, sea en 50, podran gozar de este proyecto. No es nuestro idioma solo; ante todo es el idioma de esta gente. La gran mayoria de nosotros somos o academicos o individuos que han estudiado nahuatl por el placer. Creo que es casi imposible ponernos en el contexto de la gente que mantiene este idioma vivo. No debemos, no podemos imponer nuestras ideas y prejuicios sobre una obra que ellos terminaran controlando en el futuro. Por esta razon creo que debemos de ser muy conservadores. Hay que considerar cuidadosamente antes de sugerir y aceptar propuestas ortograficas y linguisticas. Como decia mi abuela, cuando dios quiere destruir a alguien le manda la vanidad, y creo que debemos de evitar esto.

Por si acaso, mi primer idioma fue nahuatl. Mi abuela era ya una de las ultimas personas en hablar un poco en su pueblo, y no me lo enseño mas alla de unas palabras, pero siento que sigue siendo mi idioma materno.

I have been reading some of the discussions on this page and it bothers me to see the lack of respect and vision that some have shown. The orthography question is undoutedly important, but there is no need to demean. We must not forget the context of this work. It is an encyclopedia, but it is also the largest body of modern and original nahuatl work on the internet. We must not forget this! We must not also forget that nahuatl is a living language, that people still speak it, and that one day, in 5 years or 50, they will use this project. It is not our language only, it is these people's above all. The vast majority of us are academics or individuals who learnt nahuatl for the sheer pleasure of it. It is difficult to put ourselves in the context of the people that keep this language alive. Thusly, we should not, must not impose out own ideas and prejudices on this work which they will end up controling in the future. It is because of this that we must be extremely careful in suggesting and accepting any reforms to spelling and the written language. As my grandmother said, when god wants to destroy someone, god sends vanity, and we must avoid this.

Incidentally, my first language was nahuatl. My grandmother was one of the last people to speak some in her town, but I never learnt more than a few words. I still feel like it is my mother tongue though.

--chema mexicatl 00:10, 11 Tlamactlihuanonti 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Interwiki Bot Status

Hi. I would like to get my interwiki bot YurikBot marked as a bot in your language. The bot is already operating in almost 50 languages, and it would lower the server load and improve the quality of articles if all interwikies are updated at the same time. You can read more or ask questions here. I always run the latest version of the Pywikipediabot (i am also one of the developers of this project). The request for the bot status is here. Please support. Thank you. --Yurik (en) 03:13, 24 Tlamactlihuanonti 2005 (UTC)

[editar] Wikimania 2007 Team Bulletin

Published by the Wikimania 2007 Taipei Team, Wikimania 2007 Team Bulletin provides the latest news of the Team's organizing work to everyone who is interested in Wikimania; it also gives the Team chances to announce calls for help/participation, so assistance in human and other resources can be sought in a wider range. Team Bulletin is published at the official website of Wikimania 2007 and released to the public domain. Issue 1 and Issue 2 has already published.--218.166.212.246 02:05 29 oct 2006 (UTC)