Talk:Java

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To-do list for Java:	edit · history · watch · refresh
A general one: expand each section (except maybe History). Sure, this should be a summary article, but currently, it is not much more than a list. Particularly demographics, language, and admin divisions.--Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Copy edit History Section - does it give balanced attention to all areas? --Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Expand history - consider a History of Java article to allow more detail Comment: although i agree in principal, the History section is probably the best section in the whole article. Can i suggest it is a lower priority for more detail? Although, of course we have to assess the quality, refs, etc. --Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Lead - needs to be expanded see WP:LEAD References - lack of references for current information, remember to include references for all new material. Volcanism should be expanded to explain the significance of the presence (fertile soils, eruptions and effect on local beliefs and practtices) - there was one theory that Java might have been a number of island while they were in their infancy! (ie before their outpourings filled in around them) .SatuSuro 10:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Dry regions - just because parts of java a very wet - Gunung Kidul is a rainshadow area - so a single "climate" description is false - same as the north east side of Gunung Agung in Bali SatuSuro 10:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Changing coastline - massive erosion due to over exploitation leading to deltas and associated phenomena SatuSuro 10:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

To-do list for Java:

edit · history · watch · refresh

A general one: expand each section (except maybe History). Sure, this should be a summary article, but currently, it is not much more than a list. Particularly demographics, language, and admin divisions.--Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Copy edit History Section - does it give balanced attention to all areas? --Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Expand history - consider a History of Java article to allow more detail

Comment: although i agree in principal, the History section is probably the best section in the whole article. Can i suggest it is a lower priority for more detail? Although, of course we have to assess the quality, refs, etc. --Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Lead - needs to be expanded see WP:LEAD
References - lack of references for current information, remember to include references for all new material.

Volcanism should be expanded to explain the significance of the presence (fertile soils, eruptions and effect on local beliefs and practtices) - there was one theory that Java might have been a number of island while they were in their infancy! (ie before their outpourings filled in around them) .SatuSuro 10:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Dry regions - just because parts of java a very wet - Gunung Kidul is a rainshadow area - so a single "climate" description is false - same as the north east side of Gunung Agung in Bali SatuSuro 10:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Changing coastline - massive erosion due to over exploitation leading to deltas and associated phenomena SatuSuro 10:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page one

The following paragraph is correct except for the 85%. "Java is by far the most populous island in Indonesia, with nearly 85% of the overall population of the country residing there [1]. With an area of 126,700 square km, and 124 million inhabitants at 981 people per km² it would, if it were a country, be the second-most densely-populated country of the world after Bangladesh, except for some very small city-states." 124 million is a little more than half of the overall population of the country.

Someone added the phrase "kathleen is a very sexyy girl and i love her in" to the article in the second paragraph

So remove it. You're not blocked. Be bold. ... discospinster _talk 18:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Something's wrong with the statement: "It is the most populous island in the world, and fifth most populous land mass after Eurasia, Africa, North America, and South America (see the list of islands by population)."

It would seem to leave out Australia... I'm no expert on Australia, but I'm pretty sure it's bigger than Java. I checked the included reference of Islands by population and it doesn't mesh with the statement either. I'm starting the talk simply becasue I'm not an expert on this topic or on Java so if people want to understand my upcoming rewrite and it's rationale there's something here. Gabe 02:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm a dummy... I got myself confused becasue the list of islands by population includes Antarctica as a land mass, which kind of boggles the mind, but joins North and South America and Africa and Eurasia. I'm gonna go look at the talk page there to understand what they did and then consider how to reconcile these two articles. Gabe 02:54, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to the continent article:

"Because of the perceived cultural differences by Europeans, it is conventional to subdivide Eurasia into Europe and Asia. They are more appropriately called regions, and neither is a geological or geographical continent. In the same manner, historians may subdivide Africa-Eurasia into Eurasia-North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa.

These definitions give the following alternate models:

   * 7 regions: Europe, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 6 regions: Europe, Asia, Africa, America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 5 continents: Eurasia, Africa, America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 4 continents: Africa-Eurasia, America, Antarctica, and Australia.

The 7-region model is usually taught in the United States, while the geological 6-continent model is taught in Canada and in East Asia. In Europe and Latin America including the United Kingdom and Mexico, they teach the 6-region model, which is shown in the Olympic Games flag as five rings, excluding Antarctica."

Therefore I've decided to rephrase the article such that it indicates that Java is the most populous non-contiental landmass, and indeed more populous than both Australia and Antarctica and not say anything further on the matter since any statement boils down to what you consider a land mass and the jury seems to be out on that. ;) Gabe 03:10, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What About the Economy of the Island?

I would have thought that there would have been some mention of the word "coffee", as in "cup of Java". Is this not indeed where the phrase comes from? "Dutch coffee plantations", or something. I'm sure the Dutch didn't come there to surf. (Oct.)

[edit] Announcing Wikipedia:Indonesia-related topics notice board

After some thought and consideration, I created an Indonesia-related topics notice board, along the same lines as other regional notice boards (such as those for Malaysia and Africa). This was established to coordinate efforts to improve Indonesia-related Wikipedia entries. If you've made contributions to Indonesia-related articles in the past, or would like to, please take some time to visit, introduce yourself, and sign the roster. --Daniel June 30, 2005 18:35 (UTC)

It seems somewhat silly to me to include Antarctica in the following statement "indeed it has a larger population than either the continents of Australia or Antarctica (see the list of islands by population)." Does anyone expect the population of Antarctica to be even close to substantial? Seems odd to use it to compare populations, to say the least. Just my 2 cents.

[edit] Proposed page move

A proposal has been made on Talk:Java (disambiguation) for Java (island) to be moved to Java. Please read and comment. –Hajor 15:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

A new proposal has been made on Talk:Java for Java (island) to be moved to Java. Please read and comment. Brz7 00:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] population

Surely something too is wrong with the statement "indeed, it has a larger population than either the continents of Australia or Antarctica". Australia has a population of 20 million - not exactly worth comparing with Java's 127 million. And Antarctica? Is this a joke? - Orecalimo

No, I don't think it was supposed to be a joke, but it is a really pointless, pedantic statement, especially to be in the introduction of the article. Thanks for pointing it out. I've rewritten the intro to try to describe (briefly!) why Java is important aside from its large population - there's more to it than that. CDC (talk) 22:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi CDC, thanks for the update. I agree that the comparisons were useless and unnecessary. I must object to your use of term "powerful Islamic kingdoms" though. The former Hindu/Buddhist kingdoms converted to Islam only as late as when the colonial powers were arriving in the region, and only when their powers have significantly declined. Hence I think your statement is inaccurate. Majapahit and Sriwijaya did at some point dominate the southeast asia region, but they are Hindu and Buddhist, respectively. Thanks, Julius.kusuma 22:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I was referring more to the Sultanate of Mataram and perhaps Banten - my impression is that both were important political entities for a while before the Europeans showed up on Java, and both were Islamic - maybe I'm wrong. But Majapahit is important - perhaps more important - maybe it should say "powerful Hindu and Islamic kingdoms" or something (is "powerful kingdoms" too generic?) Please do change it to whatever seems right. My knowledge of this early history is kind of fuzzy, so I sometimes have trouble deciding what things are worth emphasising. CDC (talk) 23:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, Mataram dominated Java the island, but was not able to project its powers outside of Java and Madiun. So if we were talking about Jogjakarta I would be comfortable in saying that "Jogjakarta is the site of the (powerful) kingdom of Mataram." Making a similar statement when talking about the island of Java is misleading, I think, because I would be expecting Mataram to project its powers outside of the island it is based on.

The use of "Hindu and Buddhist kingdoms" is also appropriate because even up to today, Indonesians like to refer to Majapahit and Sriwijaya when arguing for the legitimacy of an Indonesian national identity. That is, that there was a time when (arguably) all of Indonesia was under one banner. Julius.kusuma 23:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Java and Madura

Many forget to substract the data from the Madura Island when they show population and area for Java as an island. Political divisions include Madura with the province of East Java, so it makes Java bigger than it is as an island. From [1], I find 126,700 km2 for Java and 5,290 km2 for Madura (together: 132 000 km2). The other weird thing is that for the 2000 population census [2], I am unable to reach as many as 127 million (the number actually shown here) when I add the 6 Javanese provinces. Anyway, GeoHive give 2005 estimates from the 2000 census, and also, we can substract from the data there the population of the 4 kaputapens of Madura, giving finally 124 million for Java Island in 2005. LeQuantum 16:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Java Article is sanitized generic.

In the U.S. we all grew up with a boring history of dates and cameos of Generals, business moguls, and the undeniable grass roots humanitarian folk heroes. This article on Java goes two steps further in politically correct sterility by leaving only the mention of the business influence, and glossing past all other antagonisms and struggles. As in the more immediately urgent reporting in U.S. media about contemporary events in the Balkans which made no sense because of illogical nomenclature (e.g. an ethnic group clashed with a national group etc., as if those are mutually exclusive peopleagories) this Java article is slicker by omission. I imagine that if there is a library in Mr. Rodger's neighborhood, the history books have such ...ah... 'congenial' articles as this one. When reading such type of writing, it is up to the reader to fill in the background information and imbue it with a knowledge of motive and social dynamics because the 'hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil, see-no-evil' global genericists aren't going to make that judgment call, as obvious and true as they may seem to be.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.212.153.105 (talk • contribs) 29 May 2006.

That's as may be, but any perceived 'sanitising' here is not a product of any deliberate exclusion or intentional censorship, but rather and more simply a case of no-one has yet annotated such points to this particular article - all articles here are perpetual drafts, if you like, and the number and variety of topics and articles exceeds that of dedicated editors. Another reason to consider, this particular article is on a piece of geography, and not a state or other social-political entity more amenable to discussion of events of that nature. Other articles, such asIndonesia, History of Indonesia, &c. carry a little more of the stuff you see as missing. And as always, the article is open for you or anyone else to expand or improve, so if you see any deficiencies, you'd be welcome to make a start yourself.--cjllw | TALK 23:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing reasons for population density

The article doesn't explain why it is so densely populated. I guess the main cause is a mixture of fertile volcanic soils and plenty of rainfall, but that doesn't fully explain why the rest of Indonesia is so much less densely populated. Please add a full explanation to the article if you can. Thank you. Sumahoy 15:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert of rdir to Java

I've reverted the recent change which involved replacing the text of this Java (island) article with a redirect to Java, and the replacement there of its former disambig page format with text on the island taken from this one. Quite possibly there is a case to argue for the island's article having the title Java, with other meanings at Java (disambiguation), but a copy and paste exercise is not the way to go about it. If it is to be retitled, then it should be done by moving the pages, to preserve the respective edit histories and associated talk pages. It should also probably be nominated for moving first via the WP:RM process, to see if there is consensus for such an arrangement. It will have to go through the WP:RM process in any case since it will require administrator action to move the pages (if that is the outcome), as both have non-trivial edit histories.--cjllw | TALK 23:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

A new proposal has been made on Talk:Java for Java (island) to be moved to Java (and Java to be moved to Java (disambiguation)). Please read and comment. Brz7 00:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] java language

it's strange to me that there was a top link to Java (Sun) but not to Java programming language; i suspect the latter is far more popular. i just added the top-link, but i think we should actually remove the link to Java (Sun). Benwing 03:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 23:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Java → Java (island) — Java clearly is a very ambiguous proper noun. I don't believe we should make assumptions as to which is the most popular Java, or the most relevant and thus think that Java should be moved to Java (island) and Java should point to Java (disambiguation). Dreddlox 00:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

NOTE - before you add a comment, stop, think and look above - this has happened before, twice at least, the user here makes no acknowledgement of previous discussions - do you really need to add your bit now?

Reading previous discussions might help you understand the issues and save space and time on this issue SatuSuro 03:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Survey

Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Comment - we have been through this a few times before, but it has consistantly been rather split, lets give it another go --T-rex 02:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Support - Java is too commonly known as too many things. I don't believe the island to hold much notability compared to coffee or the programming language, thus an ambiguation page for Java seems best. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 07:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose

Notability: Home to 130million people world's most populated island, (on its own it would be the 9th largest country in the world) and it is the economic and political heart of the world's fourth biggest country. Being their home, and ethnic identity, it is very notable to the Javanese and other ethnic groups. There is even a wikipedia Javanese language version in addition to Indonesian [3] Remember, the concept of Java is more than just an island within another country - like say Hawaii (or Alaska, kinda like an island). It is very distinct chracteristc within itself - as do most Indonesian islands. Think of Indonesia more like Europe and Java as a country in Europe, that's how distinct it is.
I doubt the IT meaning has that deep and broad notability with that many people - i suggest notability is reserved for IT "geeks", not a whole people. Wikiepedia should have be aimed at BROADER audience than just IT geeks. Off the internet, say Java and people almost always think of the island At least they do in Europe, Asia and Australia. Apparently in the US though they think of (Javan) coffee - so I am told. -i really think we should cater for broader audiences, who wants wikipedia just to be tailored for minority die-hard IT techs? See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias#The_origins_of_bias.
Java island has been populated for thosands of years, and is likely to be so for even longer - how about Java in the IT sense? I think we know that in comparison it is more of a temporary thing.
Wikipedia Direct links: Java the island has 402 pages linking directly to it and 537 indirectly. Sun's Java (Sun) has on the other hand 107 direct links and 8 indirect.
Btw, the coffee reference is hilarious - why do you think it is called Java coffee? lol. I dont think it is coincidence that Java is full of coffee plantations. Etymology: Java island came first, after which the coffee was named (first by Javanese "Kopi Jawa", and later by Americans), then i suspect the IT sense takes after coffee. I have only ever heard Americans refer to coffee with the term.
I will add more if i think of more.
--Merbabu 07:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. It's inconceivable that a programming language called "California", no matter how popular it became, would ever displace the US State from its primacy in Wikipedia. Java has at least twice the population of California. The fact that lots of poorly educated people have never heard of Java is something Wikipedia should be helping to fix, not to reinforce. -- Danny Yee 08:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Compare python, ruby, and c. Is anyone seriously suggesting that a particular group of snakes, a kind of gemstone, or even a letter of the Roman alphabet is even close in importance to an island with 120 million inhabitants? -- Danny Yee 03:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose of course. I agree with the comments of above. Gryffindor 08:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. This is getting repetitious - cannot something or somebody put the cat out and leave it out for once and all? SatuSuro 11:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose, cf. previous discussions, Brz7 00:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose When searching for the island of Java one would write "Java", where as when in search of the language Java one would write "Language Java", "Java script" or some other similar qualifier. Additionally Java (Island) doesnt follow any accepted naming conventions currently in use, the more correct naming suggestion would be "Java, Indonesia". Even if one is confused by that fact that Java can have alternative unrelated articles, the first sentence clarifies and links to the DAB and the language. As for the importance the java language like most computer langauges will have life of maybe optomistically another 10 years and then pass back into insignificance, where as Java the place, short of a major catastropic event (even that would warrant the prominant article naming anyway) is still going to be there for thousands of more years. Gnangarra 14:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no. go to any search engine and give it a try. First 20 pages on google give you nothing on the island. Granted this is a meaningless fact that has little to nothing to do with the page move request, but I felt the need to point out that you are baseing your argument on complete lies --T-rex 15:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Complete lies? Thus you would be betting the programming language is going to out live the Island in notabilty (going for the moment on the false assumption it is more notable now)? Can I ask, how long does the programming language have?--Merbabu 00:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Complete lies as in not true, as for your second point, the programing language will outlast wikipedia --T-rex 00:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

And the island won't? You know that was not my point. But as you avoided it, may i assume that you agree with it? Hopefully someone else can answer my question on the likely notable lifespan of the programming language.--Merbabu 00:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I did not think it was nessiccary to note that the island was unlikly to spontaniously vanish within the near future. I should point out though that the future does not mater, it is only the present that we need to judge, the future can be taken care of in the future --T-rex 03:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

You accuse me of lies, yet you dont despute anthing that I said, you offer no verifiable source to support your accusations. If you have a constructive POV then present it but please dont use personal attacks to the opinions of myself or others. Gnangarra 04:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

That was in reference to your comments about people searching --T-rex 04:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose While this may seem an obvious move to someone who has worked with the Java programming language (of which I am one), it doesn't make sense for a general interest encyclopedia. With over 100 million people in Java (part of the 220 million in Indonesia) and, as of 2003, 3 million Java developers world-wide, I think that it's logical to infer that more people primarily associate Java with the island than the programming language. Further, the island has substantial historical claim to primacy, and likely will continue to in the future, when Java goes the way of COBOL. So far as disambiguation goes, I like the link at the top of the page. To me it's immediately obvious how to navigate to the programming language topic. ScottW 14:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Strong support, in the case of several likely and very common meanings for the same term, the disambiguation page should be at that name. Mercury, for instance, does not point to the Greek god after whom all of the meanings are named. Kusma (討論) 14:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Note that many pages link to Java that intend to link to the programming language. It is trivial to fix all the links if Java is a disambiguation page, but annoying to do so if Java points to one of the specific meanings. Why send people looking for the programming language (very many) through the page about the (completely unrelated) island? That's what disambiguation is for, just as with Georgia, where the non-decision which Georgia is more "important" helps to avoid broken links. Kusma (討論) 14:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  - There are about 500 links to the unqualified name. A 10% random sample showed about 1/3 linking to the programming language and 2/3 to the island. --Polaron | Talk 14:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    - Comment That shows a problem with people's linking skills. Maybe they should check what they are linking first - maybe they cannot see the "Preview" button next to the "Save" button. This is an encyclopedia that should focus on a wide readership and reflect the broad realities of the wider world and its historically context, not one that has to be propped up with disability measures for lazy and ignorant editors.--Merbabu 00:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
      - Further comment - my own quick glance at the link page [4] shows that most linked to the IT meaning are article talk pages which as we all know have a much lower level of quality. --Merbabu 00:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
        
        Further comment still Ignoring the bad links on talk pages (which is the vast majority) i have now fixed those bad links within articles, there wasn't too many - see my contribs. While i realise that just sticking "Java (programming language)" in place of "Java" is not always completely accurate, no-one can argue that it is not better to at least have the link in the right area. Hoepfully Java programmers are not as careless as some editors have been. ;-) --Merbabu 01:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Many Wikipedia editors are well-versed in computer technology and I expect that people who associate "Java" with the programming language are overrepresented here. --Polaron | Talk 14:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Commnet Although amongst editors it might have a higher proportion of IT "geeks" than the rest of society, as for its readers is Wikipedia intended to have a narrow IT readership or broader focus that reflects the "real world"? I suggest the latter.--Merbabu 00:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Support - the island may be the most common use, but it is not signifacntly more important then the other uses, i recal a disambiguation page was chosen to solve a simmilar dilema at Syracuse --T-rex 15:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- How is an island with a population of 120 million not "more significant than the other uses"? For anyone outside IT, this is just a no-brainer, and we're not writing an encyclopedia for the <1% of the population that has anything to do with programming. (I am a system administrator supporting Java server applications myself.) With Syracuse, there were two large cities involved, that's a completely different case. -- Danny Yee 23:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  - first there is way more on that disambig page then just the tech uses. Despite what you have said I did say it is more significant than the other uses, it is not, as I pointed out not signifacntly more important then the other uses. We do have disambig pages on wikipedia for a reason --T-rex 00:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    - I hardly consider "Java" as coffee "way more". Keep in mind that that is a usage that only seems prevalent within the United States - no one in Australia, for example, will think of coffee when you say "Java". -- Danny Yee 02:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    - And the programing language is mentioned at the top of Java for a reason too, interestingly though the reverse is not true. --Merbabu 00:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Support move to Java, Indonesia. It is not clear that the island is the most common usage. Given that the programming language and the island are likely of equal note, the dab page should be moved here. Vegaswikian 00:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- How can any programming language be "of equal note" to an island with 120 million inhabitants? I asked above how popular would a programming language called "California" have to be to displace the US state - and the answer is that it simply wouldn't happen. More people probably live in Java than have ever even heard of the other uses of the word. Javanese are probably massively underrepresented among Wikipedia editors, but that's a problem that we need to fix. -- Danny Yee 03:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  - In line with Danny's comments, can i suggest that some may be confusing notability amongst editors (no doubt a significantly higher proportion of IT-centred people than the wider community) with notability among readers. I think this raises important questions over just who wikipedia as a resource should be directed too. Personally, I think a focus on the broader world, not an IT-focussed resource, is far more important - it's what brings me to wikipedia anyway. Perhaps more of an effort towards a worldwide view is needed. --Merbabu 04:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    - I believe that those close to Indonesia will think of the island. The farther away you go, the more likely another use will prevail. Yes, the programming language might be considered geeky, but many users now about it because they run into it when they need to get some programs to run. Of course we should then add in the use of Java for coffee. And for some people it may only mean Java, South Dakota. So while it is a large island, the question is the primary use. It is very unclear here so the dab should prevail. Vegaswikian 00:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
      - Herein lies the contention while there are more people that identify Java the island, In fact over half the worlds population lives closer to Java than to America. The arguements being presented for the move are only enforcing the systemic bias, in the over all population the Island Java is significantly more notiable but within the narrow field of WP editors there is a disproportionate number of people who see the language as being equally or more significant because they obtain financial reward from it. Gnangarra 00:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
        
        Could Java language prominance over the Island, really be an endourse of Sun Microsystems product by Wikipedia. Gnangarra 01:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
        
        Vegaswikian, perhaps what you mean is, as you get closer to the US, Java (Indonesia) is less well know (like anything else non-US) It is not about usage - it is about notability. As you say, this would make a town of 197 people who relatively no one has heard of, be of equal note to what would be in its own right the 9th largest country in the world - we both know this is rubbish. Perhaps the island is not well known in the US but it certainly is throughout east Asia (which is many times bigger than USA), and also in Australia and Europe. But the fact that it is not well known in the US is no reason for wikipedia to reflect such ignorance (the Americans do many things exceptionally well - knowledge of the outside world is not one of them). But, even then, it is not about how well known it is. It is about significance. You say "many users running into it (Java Prog Language) when they need to some programs to run" - this is hardly significant in comparison to what is not just an island which is the political and economic heart of the world's 4th largest nation. It's not just another state say in the US or AUstralian meaning of the term, but as is the case in Indonesia, it is ethnically, historically and economically very different to its neighbouring states - indeed it is like another country. Rather than a country and a state, think of Indonesia like the European Union, and Java is like a country within that. It's is also an identity. As for much of Indonesia (and Europe) people are prone to identify as Javanese before they identify as Indonesian.

There is already a disambig page listing all your concerns which is linked from the very top of the Java page. The programming language even gets its own mention and link from the top there too. Given the overwhelming higher level of significance of the island historically, economically, geographically this is more than fair covereage. Maybe you should check out Sydney, python, ruby, c and Bengal. They all have DAB pages - but not directs. --Merbabu 01:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - I cannot emphisize more on this. Basically people have expressed the same opinion as mine, that the island of Java is far more popular and important, thus cannot be treated like a programming language. People who support the idea might want to read the article carefully first, and understand the importance of the island. Imo eng 07:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose per User talk:Polaron and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. Lethiere 08:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Very strong oppose - I don't believe the people who requested the move. This is not a Programming Language Encyclopaedia!! — Indon (reply) — 10:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Strong oppose. Wikipedia is not a geek-only encyclopedia. Our international scope and goals should affect our thoughts about notability and importance, not the other way round. — mark ✎ 12:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- This has to do with more than just notability and importance. The element Mercury is a lot more important than the Roman god or the planet, but it still doesn't get to occupy the spot Mercury alone. Georgia (country) is a country, but does not get to occupy the spot Georgia because the (less important, less notable) US state of Georgia (U.S. state) exists and is another likely search and link target. Kusma (討論) 13:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  - I think python, ruby, c and Bengal are better comparisons here. -- Danny Yee 13:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    - If "Georgia" was a state not in the USA but in say Australia (or Indonesia for that matter), I would bet my house that "Georgia" would link direct to the country. Just because Wikipedia handles the name "Georgia" incorrectly, does not mean that it should also do the same for "Java". There are some editors out there who don't want wikipedia to have just an American and IT focus to it. --Merbabu 13:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Major stupidity. BTW this page was moved here quite rightly in a vote a few months ago. Jooler 14:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Strong oppose. There is simply no comparing the importance of a massively populated landmass to something as ephemeral as a programming language. Robotman1974 03:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose, per previous RM attempts.--cjllw | TALK 06:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Do what? Java is coffee. — AjaxSmack 08:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- lol - people need to release that the introduction of widespread and vast coffee plantations on Java by the Javanese and the colonial Dutch before them, were simply a cynical marketing attempt to cash in on the American word for coffee. ;-) --Merbabu 08:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- :-) Though I thank for your opposition, but the reason makes me smile. — Indon (reply) — 09:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Bolivian Unicyclist 12:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Markussep 16:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Take a look at Spain, Wales, Scotland, Bali, Brazil, Peru, Hawaii, Holland for just a few examples of coutries where the main page is about the country with a link at the top to the disambiguation page. We don't make exceptions for Bali programming language and Brazil (operating system), nor should we for Java (programming language). Brazil Rendering System was used on films which have been seen by tens (hundreds?) of millions (eg, Star Wars III) but we still make Brazil's country page the main page because that's what all the others are named after.--Bwmodular 09:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose - Wikipedians are generally just a little biased toward IT, aren't we, folks? The other uses of "Java" are ones that specifically pertain to computer programmers and coffee afficianados. There is a huge difference in the scope of notability between an island of 124 million people and a programming language and coffee variety. Feeeshboy 00:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose - I'm pretty sure that if I went out into the street here (Wales) and asked random passers-by "What is Java?", at least 9 out of 10 would reply "an island". If somebody said "a programming language", I would know I'd found a geek.Rhion 09:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Please see discussion for two previous requested moves at Talk:Java (disambiguation). older ≠ wiser 01:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
There has been alot of discussion on this preiviously as older ≠ wiser mentions. I seriously doubt that a new consensus can be formed and that it can be clear, given the history. Eluchil404 06:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just seen that the most recent debate over this was in June. Are there not policies about how often it happens? If one "side" doesn't get their way, what is stopping them from re-proposing say next week? --Merbabu 08:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not aware of any policy or guide-line with respect to move requests. As with all processes thw wikipedia community has a small tolerance for sequential requests as they are seen as attempts to game to system. If less than a few months have passed I would expect many people to oppose the proposal on procedural grounds as too soon regardless of the merits. Under that understanding this proposal is not invalid on its face, but I do question its chances of succeeding given the (fairly) recent consensus in the opposite direction. Eluchil404 11:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

There should be a box at the tope of the talk page with a 'Danger' or 'Warning' sign that the whole process of trying to impose narrow world views (in the case of those who havent any sense of notability of the island) should be dissalowed from proposing yet another time wasting debate on the disambig or shifting issue. Merbabu's point will be completely and utterly lost unless someone with a good knowledge of wikipedia mechanics finds the right policy page where this gets nailed for once and for all, and dosnt get put up by another individual with limited geographic knowledge beyond their own back yard next week SatuSuro 11:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

'Warning', someone may disagree with SatuSuro's views. Any such behavior could ruin wikipedia, and quite possibly bring on the end of the world --T-rex 15:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey someone with a sense of humour with a PA at the same time! SatuSuro 10:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is the malicious action of a troll, sockpuppet or a previously blocked person for their understanding of wikipedia policy, formatting enable a person with no previous edit history (User contribs) to create this section and nominate it at Wikipedia:Requested moves within a 3 minute time period. in the 6 hours sinced the account was created no other edits have occured. Gnangarra 14:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Just a comment: if there are more programmers who use the language every day than residents of the island, would that support a change? What's the test here? It seems to me to be very difficult to tell which is more common usage, but I don't accept that the argument that people live there necessarily and absolutley grants one usage primacy over another. If the population were not 120 million but, say, 10 thousand, would that change things? Croctotheface 19:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

response what would happen if the language was call Guam Gnangarra 00:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If it were even close, I would support the move. There is no hard and fast rule here. If something is the most common use BY FAR, then it should not need parenthetical treatment. If it's unclear, then disambig is needed, but I don't see how anyone can argue that the number of java programmers or the importance of java coffee compares at all with the island and its population. Feeeshboy 00:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Collab starts now...

(Please add tasks, or even better, do one!)

[edit] To Do:

A general one: expand each section (except maybe History). Sure, this should be a summary article, but currently, it is not much more than a list. Particularly demographics, language, and admin divisions.--Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Copy edit History Section - does it give balanced attention to all areas? --Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

For starters, how about filling in the gap between Homo Erectus and the Hindu Kingdoms. Is there any notable info on ancient human inhabitants (before 800 BC)? Feeeshboy 00:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Expand history - consider a History of Java article to allow more detail

Lead - needs to be expanded see WP:LEAD
References - lack of references for current information, remember to include references for all new material.
Ethnic groups - for FA status, this section needs to be rewritten as a paragraph instead of a list, with a bit of information on each group. Cirebonese links to a stub on the language, nor the Cirebonese as an ethnic group.Rhion 13:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

What is the source of the number for religion? Is it accurate? Especially the numbers of Kejawen and Abangan Javanese are doubtfull. Meursault2004 13:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dialects or languages?

Ethnologue lists Osing, Tengger, etc as languages rather than dialects. Of Tengger, for example, it says "May be marginally intelligible with Javanese", while Kangean is "Barely intelligible with East Madura. A separate language". So I think we should stick with calling them languages, at least if we're going to cite Ethnologue as the source. -- Danny Yee 13:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a neverending story. I should rather say dialects instead of languages because those languages are mutually intelligible with the standard language whatever Ethnologue says. Or we can also put in footnotes. For example, Betawi language is not mutually intelligible with Malay spoken in Ambon. Yet both are dialects and not languages of Malay. Meursault2004 15:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, the language/dialect division is pretty arbitrary. And the sociolinguistic pressures are I assume all in favour of the standard forms - though maybe less so than in similar situations elsewhere, since Indonesian is the state privileged language instead. I'll add something to the footnote maybe. -- Danny Yee 22:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

What do you guys think of the new infobox? Please tell me if you want more entries (and tell me the extra entries as well :P). Cheers -- Imo eng 22:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool! We have standardize infobox for island. Does it also applies for islands? Hmm.. I haven't think any missing info for an island, but I'll let you know when I get it. ;-) — Indon (reply) — 09:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, is that "cool" means you like it? Well, I was thinking about groups of islands too, like Pulau Seribu, maybe I'll think about that later. Okay, please do let me know. Cheers -- Imo eng 10:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sects?

Kejawen groups or Mystical groups (even religious groups) would be a more appropriate term in the religion section - than the word sect - which from common usage in some parrt of the english speaking world - has grown a negative connotation. Anyone else on this one? SatuSuro 11:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Sect proabably is the correct term, but i agree it has negative connotations. In reality, it really is a very respectable thing but "sect" doesn't sound much better than "cult". lol - aren't i helpful? --Merbabu 12:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "sect" is not ideal here (academic studies tend to use it, but there aren't the same negative connotations there). On the other hand, "group" is a little too vague. Definitely not "cult"! -- Danny Yee 12:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the 45 constitution wording about beliefs that exist outside the framework of the established named major religions might be a clue - the Bantul Sospol office in 96 had a whole wall full of groups listed! There might be in some cases very localised groups - that just exist in one province - or even district - maybe mystical organisation? 'Cult and sect' are simply not on - so if group or organisation are too nebulous - anyone sat in on a subud/sumarah session ever? they might have terminology that is useful.... Cult and sect are not relevant to the smaller groupings or loose affiliations that either have existed - or still do - so for accuracy we need a document from one of the groups about their permissions/permits/etc from the authorities perhaps SatuSuro 13:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I did write this religious sects, literally taken from the source, but I'm not going to disagree if you want to change it. I think writting it as "religious belief" is a good one. BTW, I like your "mystical group" :-). — Indon (reply) — 13:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Banner

I removed the "Article Indonesian collaboration" banner from the article. Generally, as I understand, messages to editors shouldn't go on articles, but instead stay on the talk page. Alex Dodge 07:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I reverted your change. Please point to a policy which confirms this is the case. If you take a look at the other collaborations (Template:Announcements/Current_collaborations) I don't see a consus (MichaelJLowe 08:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

I think the collab needs to go to another aritlce. I wanted to message each editor individually to get there opinion on next collab but can't do it til next week - going on holidays.--Merbabu 12:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

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Categories: Indonesia collaboration articles | B-Class Indonesia articles | High-importance Indonesia articles | To do | To do, priority undefined