Talk:Vossstrasse/archive1

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. -- Kjkolb 05:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Mark support to each name you support and oppose to each name you oppose. Stefán Ingi 13:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Mark # Support each name you approve of.

In an approval vote only Support votes count. You may case a vote for more than one option and tactical voting to help form a consensus is encouraged

[edit] Propose name remains at Voss-strasse

1. Support. Shilkanni 16:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Stefán Ingi 13:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Withdrawing my votes. Stefán Ingi 14:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Stemonitis 13:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Haukur 13:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Matthead 14:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Blur4760 16:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Support Masterhatch 17:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Strongly oppose  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 18:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Support. Elonka 20:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC) - Removing support. Based on most English-language sources that I have checked, such as Lonely Planet guidebooks, the most common usage appears to be "Vossstrasse", not "Voss-strasse". --Elonka 17:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

3. support Voß is not English; I observe in the discussion below that the German wikipedia doesn't use it either. Septentrionalis 22:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   The German Wikipedia doesn't actually have an article on this street, but the de:Reichskanzlei article spells it "Voßstraße". Tupsharru 13:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

   The fact that the name of the street is Voßstraße is not disputed, see photo in article. Matthead 20:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

   That is the German name of the street, which should not be what we are discussing. Septentrionalis 17:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

   The street has only one name, and no Wikipedia is in a position to challenge it. The discussion here is if English Wikipedia should invented an article name to write about the street, and if so, which invention is "most English".--Matthead 17:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

   Next you will be saying that London and the United States have only one name; yet consider fr:Londres and de:Vereinigte Staaten (among many others for each). Septentrionalis 20:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

   VS is a proper translation of US. I had proposed "Voss street", but somebody wanted to create a Frankenword like "Voss-strasse", and call it English on top of that. What's next, an American insisting on "Vo$$-$tra$$e"? --Matthead 12:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

4. Support -- JamesTeterenko 23:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
5. Support-- Bharatveer 10:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
6. Support -- ccwaters 13:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
7. Support: use English alphabet. Bubba ditto 23:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
8. Support. Rebecca 11:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
9. Support: just follow policy and use the English alphabet, otherwise this debate will never end. Thumbelina 17:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propose move to Voßstraße

1. Support Stemonitis 13:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Support Stefán Ingi 13:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Withdrawing my votes. Stefán Ingi 14:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

   Support Haukur 13:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Support Matthead 14:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Support Blur4760 16:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC) I am withdrawing my vote regarding the ß, but I still stand by my opinion that Voss-strasse or Vossstrasse is a seperate issue. Blur4760 16:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose. Shilkanni 16:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Masterhatch 17:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

3. Support  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 18:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose- Bharatveer 10:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

   Absolutely oppose Violation of policy.Septentrionalis 22:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

4. Support. Kusma (討論) 23:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
5. Support. German proper noun with no established English form. Tupsharru 08:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
6. Support, correct name. —Nightstallion (?) 12:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
7. Support, that's the name, there isn't a standard English form, and it's already in Latin alphabet so no transliteration needed. Tkinias 13:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
8. Support and agree with Tupsharru and Tkinias. Olessi 17:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
9. Support just cut the gordian knot and go with the official name of the street as given by the street-signs, otherwise this topic will never end. Gryffindor 09:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
10. Support Umm... the official sign says 'Voßstraße' so why would anyone call it anything else? Hyenaste ^(tell) 10:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propose move to Voßstrasse

1. Support Matthead 14:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Blur4760 16:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose. Shilkanni 16:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Masterhatch 17:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 18:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose - Bharatveer 10:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Support Švitrigaila 11:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propose move to Vossstrasse

1. Support. Shilkanni 16:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Stemonitis 13:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Support Oppose Masterhatch 17:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC) change my vote to support based on the Lonely Planet's usage. Masterhatch 05:40, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Matthead 17:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 18:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

3. Support Charles 20:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
4. Support. Elonka 20:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Note: After having checked multiple English language guidebooks, including Lonely Planet:Berlin, this is now my first choice, as it is how the majority of the books spell the name of the street: "Vossstrasse". --Elonka 04:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

   oppose. Unreadable. Septentrionalis 22:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

5. Support -- JamesTeterenko 23:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
6. Support --Bharatveer 10:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
7. Support Blur4760 16:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propose move to Voss-Strasse

1. Support. Shilkanni 16:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Blur4760 16:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

2. support Masterhatch 17:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Matthead 17:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 18:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

   Support. Elonka 20:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC) - Withdrawing support. Lonely Planet usage and other English-language sources use "Vossstrasse", not "Voss-Strasse". --Elonka 17:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

3. Support stronglY Septentrionalis 22:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
4. Support -- JamesTeterenko 23:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
5. Support --Bharatveer 10:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just delete the article, the street isn't notable enough for Wikipedia anyway

1. Support. User:Angr 07:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
2. Support ccwaters 13:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
3. Support The Reichskanzlerei is notable, the street isn't. Wikipedia is not a tourist guide. Septentrionalis 16:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

   Oppose Reichskanzlei wasn't exactly a beer hall or similar tourist attraction. --Matthead 17:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

4. Support. The article has no references, and there isn't even an equivalent article on the German wikipedia. If the street were genuinely notable, there would be English-language articles about it (and then we could follow their lead as to how the street was referred to). If there are no articles, it's non-notable, and this page needs to be deleted. --Elonka 23:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
5. Support. Not ultimately notable beyond location of RK. My choices in the items above reflect only my consternation at the original research in the present title.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 17:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support Masterhatch 00:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Fine: I will be making the nomination shortly, we can have this discussion there. Septentrionalis 15:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Voss-strasse

Add any new proposals above this line ===Propose move to new name===

[edit] Discussion

Rules about letters in the "English alphabet" are irrelevant to articles named in German, such as this one. The only correct spelling is therefore the correct German spelling, with ß, following the rules laid down in the German spelling reform of 1996. Stemonitis 13:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

We have been over this several times already. Strasse is spelled S-T-R-A-S-S-E in German and English, and is so spelled here. The only issue is whether it is to be written with or without the German ligature ß, which is not recognised by most English-readers. You know this perfectly well. Wikpedia is not bound by rules on how to write things in Germany, but by its own rules. Until you can cite a Wikipedia rule requiring the use of ß, I will revert your attempts to impose it. Adam 13:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

For anyone interested, this discussion has already been held at length at Talk:Wilhelmstrasse. I would like to get on with writing articles and not be forced to waste my time on stupid pedantic arguments like this. It's nonsense like this drives everyone but pedants and cranks away from Wikipedia. Adam 13:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedians are clearly split right down the middle on the subject of 'ß', 'þ', etc. We've got to have some kind of live-and-let-live policy to prevent edit wars. It seems to me that since Adam is the first and the most committed contributor to the article his preference for the title should be a starting point. He clearly never consented to a move to the ß-version so the burden of filing a move request and showing support for a change should lie with those who want that change. Is that reasonable? As it happens I prefer the ß-version myself, but that's besides the point. Haukur 13:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That's the first intelligent comment I've heard all night. Note that I have not sought to move or change articles like Friedrichstraße that use the ß. Adam 14:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

What does articles like Friedrichstraße mean? Here [1] you moved Wilhelmstraße to Wilhelmstrasse and here [2] you moved Straße des 17. Juni to Strasse des 17 Juni. Of couse, in both cases this was a significant rewrite. Stefán Ingi 14:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyway I am going to bed now, so you will have your own way for the next nine hours or so. However, to coin a phrase, Ich komme zurück. Adam 14:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Better terminate that ü by using the Austrian cyborg's quote, Ich komme wieder! --Matthead 15:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Gute Nacht, auf Widersehen. Stefán Ingi 14:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the German usage:

• I would just like to add that in my humble opinion as a native German speaker, Straße is NOT spelled S-T-R-A-S-S-E and you are only allowed to do that if you are capitalising the word or if the ß is absolutely not available (of course that does exclude Swiss usage). It is not like Strasse and Straße are two equally valid ways of writing. The German language has a clear preference (and back in school, had I written Strasse, it would have affected my grade significantly).

Regarding my choices:

• I support Voßstraße, because I believe that articles about a subject using an untranslated name stemming from a language using a variant of the Latin alphabet should spell that very article according to the rules of that very language with any additional letters (so should anyone ever need me to support the þ, I'll be there)
• I oppose Voßstrasse, because I do not see why one should substitute one ß but not the other.
• I have no feelings regarding Vossstrasse. I consider it to be the far inferior second best option.
• I oppose Voss-strasse and Voss-Strasse (the latter a bit weaker), because I cannot understand Adam's argument about the three-consonant-rule. Maybe Vossstrasse would be forbidden in English, but it still is a German word, so I do not see why you should force English rules on it (compare with the Szczecin argument)

Blur4760 16:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• So we have an article in the English wikipedia, using German government imposed spelling? ccwaters 13:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Just delete the article, the street isn't notable enough for Wikipedia anyway

You don't think the street where Hitler's Chancellery was located is notable? Tell that to all World War II buffs with maps and cameras wandering up and down looking for the Fuhrerbunker. Adam 08:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Adam, I noticed that you removed the {{unreferenced}} template that I'd placed on the page, saying that the info on the page was "common knowledge". Can you prove this? Can you point to any English-language books or articles about the street, to prove its notability? --Elonka 23:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• en.Wikipedia now has a million articles and is running ahead of all other encyclopaedias, including de.Wikipedia, in its depth of coverage. If we are the only encyclopaedia with an article on this street, that should be a cause of satisfaction, not carping. I look forward to every street in every city in the world having an article. If people spent less time harrassing me and more time editing, we would have more articles.
• I am required to reference the fact that Voss-strasse runs between Ebertstrasse and Wilhelmstrasse? That the Reich Chancellery stood at the corner of Wilhelmstrasse and Voss-strasse? The location of the Canadian Embassy? This amounts to harrassment. Adam 23:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Please don't take it personally. I think the article reads well, it is laid out in an interesting way, and your work is appreciated. But, though the article is interesting, it's not appropriate for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a travel guide. This issue of whether there should be an article for every street is actually something that's already been discussed extensively. It's agreed that it's appropriate to have a Wikipedia article on every city, but in terms of streets, the general consensus (at least, as I read it), is that only a very few streets should have articles, and only if the street is extremely famous (such as Broadway or the Champs Elysees). To read these previous discussions for yourself, try checking here Wikipedia:Deletion_policy/Roads_and_streets. Something else I would like to suggest as well, is that you may wish to consider adding your street information to Wikitravel, where I'm sure that your efforts and energy would be most welcome. --Elonka 05:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

What makes a street notable? The Champs Elysees is just a strip of asphalt like any other. What makes it notable is that it is in the heart of a great city and that it has interesting things to see along it. The same is true of Voss-strasse. I went quite deliberately to find it, not as a tourist but as a historian, to see the site of one of the most important buildings in modern European history. Others who intend going to Berlin to visit its historical sites may well visit Wikipedia in the expectation of finding useful historical information about this and other streets. That's what an encyclopaedia is for. And since we have no restrictions of space, I don't see why we can't have as many articles on as many subjects as people care to take the time to write about. Adam 09:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

By the standards of Wikipedia:Notability (and my own), a street becomes notable not by where it is, but by what is written about it. Yes, the Champs Elysees is a strip of asphalt, but it's also been written about, sung about, been the subject of paintings by famous artists, and had many other outside references to it. That is what makes it notable. To my knowledge, the Voss-strasse's main claim to fame is that it's near some tourist attractions, and had some government offices built along it at one point. As such, it may be worth a paragraph in the articles of one of those attractions (or maybe the biography of the person that the street is named after), but I still don't think that the subject is worthy of its own article on Wikipedia. If, however, you can point to a book about the street, a song about the street, or a reference to the street in a famous painting or play or some other major work, that might change my mind. --Elonka 17:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All the fuss

I don't know what all the fuss is about. This is the English section of wikipedia and therefore the rules of English should prevail. Wikipedia:Naming conventions states it perfectly in the opening nutshell: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Sorry, but Voßstraße, Voßstrasse, and Vossstrasse do not fit the policy aforementioned. "ß" is not an English character and therefore should not be found in any English article title, and this is an English article about a German street. Blur said, "so I do not see why you should force English rules on it". That is funny because this isn't the German wikipedia, it is the English wikipedia and English has its own rules and we should follow them. German spelling rules are irrelevant here. So, i ask blur, why should german rules be forced on English? Look, the naming convention is quite clear, to use titles that are familar to the average speaker of English. Most english speakers don't know what "ß" is or even how to pronounce it. Simply, we shouldn't be using non English characters in titles in English wikipedia. If you want to use "ß", then go to the German wikipedia and fill your boots. Masterhatch 18:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Long question, short answer: This is the English Wikipedia, but Voßstraße is a German word, thus my opinion that it should be written using German ortography, not English one. And, furthermore, I dare to say that most English readers have no idea how to pronounce the German word Voßstraße whether it is written using the ß or the ss. Sorry if that was disdainful. Blur4760 18:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You still didn't answer my very important question: why should german rules be forced on English in an English encyclopaedia? you don't see English rules being forced on the german seciton of wikipedia, now do you? Look, it is simple, this is the enlish language section of wikipedia, so let's stick with English, not german. "Voßstraße" is not an english word and it contains characters that are foreign to English. So, i say to you, if you insist on using "ß" in English titles, then may i suggest that you stick to editing on the german version of wikipeida where they gladly accept those characters. (sorry if that was disdainful) Masterhatch 22:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:UE; also, if the German wikipedia can (and I think should) use de:Vereinigte Staaten and de:Elsass, why not? They don't use de:Pennsylvanien - I think they should. Septentrionalis 22:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought I did answer that. I don't want to force German rules on English, only on words that are German. Voßstraße (or, to a much lesser amount, Vossstrasse) are German words, Voss-strasse absolutely not, Voss-Strasse may be a German word, but not the name of the street, so either translate the name of the street (which is not wished for), or spell it correctly, don't make up ways of writing a German word. Blur4760 05:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

why would you want to force German words on English? That is the exact reason why i am so against nonEnglish characters being used. All over wikipedia, i see people trying to force their native language onto English and telling me that English is spelling it wrong. Sorry, but English is English and it isn't spelt wrong in English. English has its quirks, but it is still English. The naming convention is quite clear about using the form most commonly found in English (not german) and the form that is most recognisable to the average English speaker. German words and characters are obviously not English and if their is an Engilsh equivellant, then it should be used 100% of the time. If you don't like it, go edit the german language section of wikipedia and stop forcing german words where there are english equivellants. Masterhatch 07:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The commonest spelling (in English) is not the current "Voss-strasse". It's very difficult to get an accurate count from a web search, because the search engines know to convert "ß" to "ss" and vice versa, but I'm pretty sure that Voss-strasse is not top of the list. If someone can get some decent figures, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear them. --Stemonitis 07:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Most English speakers have no idea how to pronounce Mousehole (or Southwark), and most English speakers can not agree on how to pronounce Newcastle. And I know that Germans way of pronouncing Worcestershire sauce is not quite the same as it is pronounced in Worcestershire, but in none of these cases does it stop someone reading an article about the subject. What is important here is what do the WP:NCs say about such names:

Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

No word containing an "ß" character is going to be "second nature" to the majority of English speaking people. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

True, but neither will a word starting with a 'v' which wants you to pronounce itself with an [f]. Haukur 21:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

My comment was in regards to the argument that most English readers have no idea how to pronounce the ß. If they have no idea how to pronounce the word altogether, one more letter does not change much in that outcome (that very same argument of course goes in any foreign language edition of WP) (Wooster, isn't it?). Blur4760 21:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

So basically, Masterhatch, what you are saying is that any variant of Voßstraße, Vossstrasse, Voss-strasse or Voss-Strasse that will be decided upon will be an English word and ceases to have any connection with its Germanness? Even though "Strasse" and "Straße" don't have any meaning in English? You deny the possibility of using non-English words in English WP? You are arguing that Champs-Élysées is an English word as well? Or Dáil Éireann? Thus, in German WP, de:Central_Intelligence_Agency is a German word, and should be written de:central_Intelligenceagency? If that is the case, I will stop any further argument because then our premises are too irreconcilable. But before that, I would just like to mention that I have seen cases where Straße is written Strasse, and although I do not prefer it, I could live with that, if English WP decides to abandon all non-standard letters (which I believe would be wrong). However, never have I seen constructions like Voss-strasse in any English text. Blur4760 16:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously there are foreign words in English. In fact, most of English is based on foreign words! My point is, English has developed a style that does not include foreign characters most of the time. and the ß is a foreign character that English has not adopted. Since English has not adopted it, and the only places i have ever seen that are here on wikipedia and in Germany and Austria when i visited there. I didn't even see any in Switzerland. My point is, I never see that ß here in Canada anywhere and since the naming convention is quite clear on the matter, ß should not appear in article titles. There is a standard set of rules when translating South Korean to English for place names. I consider this ß just as foreign of a character as ㅃ. I wouldn't expect to see ㅃ in an article title any more than i would expect to see ß in an article title. When ㅃ is translated into English, bb is used. bb does not make the same sound as ㅃ, but it is close enough. I am not familiar with German, but i bet that the English ss sound is not the same as the ß german sound. My point is, there seems to be a way to translate ß into English and that way seems to be ss. Whether this makes Germans happy or not doesn't really matter because this is English and we have our 26 letters and we aren't asking for any more. Masterhatch 18:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, Masterhatch, our discussion began by you quoting my part about forcing English rules on a German word. But that I only said in regard to Voss-strasse and Voss-Strasse: I disagree about the use of foreign characters, but I accept other people's opinion about it, and their urgent need to transliterate, so I could live with Vossstrasse, but Voss-strasse and -Strasse I am not happy with because that is forcing English rules on the German word (which, in our case, is also a proper name, so should not have to conform to any rules of writing). And by the way, the Canadian Government uses the ß here. Blur4760 19:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I just looked at the map I posted to support my argument that ß is used in Canada, and I have to say the the Canadian Government has the most tolerant policy about ß I have ever seen; appearently that pdf-file was created by several people... (they spell it Voßstrasse by the way, which seems the wrongest of all). Blur4760 20:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose this will not win any big support, but I'd like to see it as Vossstraße; "-straße" is known among people with only the slightest acquaintance with German, whereas "Voß" isn't. Chonak 20:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SSS

List of unusual English words#Repeated letters says: "A number of English words have three of the same letter in sequence, but almost all are constructions involving a suffix, and could arguably be hyphenated or, in some cases, written as two words. They include brasssmith, headmistressship, wallless (lacking walls), and bulllike (like a bull). The OED contains the word frillless. / Other candidates are the archaic agreeeth (third person singular present tense of the verb to agree), and tweeer ... Place-names include Rossshire and Invernessshire, both in Scotland, UK (though both of these counties are usually hyphenated in official documentation)"

"we have encountered curious forms such as crosssection, and the complete Oxford English Dictionary does contain instances of frillless, bossship, countessship, duchessship, governessship, and princessship, and the county name Rossshire. " [3] Saint|swithin 20:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.