Talk:Richard Rorty

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of the Philosophy WikiProject, an attempt at creating a standardised, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use Philosophy resource. Please read the instructions and standards for writing and maintaining philosophy articles.

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ]

Contents 1 This page has problems 2 External link addition 3 Classification 4 Philosophical Lexicon comment 5 Reception and criticism 6 big mistake here 7 taskforce 8 Suffering versus Cruelty 9 Criticisms 10 Criticism Section Really Weak

[edit] This page has problems

For a start there are some factual errors. I will get around to fixing it, but in the mean time don't believe it! (Eg. The Priority of Democracy to Philosophy was NOT in Consequences of Pragmatism; it was in Objectivity, Relativism and Truth).

Also it doesn't really explore many substantive points and arguments he has made over his long career.

[edit] External link addition

Someone erased, and I believe for no good reason, the link I had put to a critique of Rorty. Since this seems to be sincerely lacking here, I'm putting it right back. 201.50.127.26 22:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Again it happened. Losers; they are everywhere. 201.8.5.123 15:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I will keep adding the link, like you or not, until one as good or better than it is found. Rorty is a controversial man with very controversial ideas; people such as me, who do not agree with them, are entitled to have their views expressed somewhat here, or, at least, to show the dissenting view to one another. That's why I shared that adress, and will continue to do so. It personally pleases me very much that I can annoy people who are able to admire that subliterate swindler, but this is getting tiresome. 200.222.192.129 14:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

If you would like more criticism of Rorty added to the article, I suggest that you insert text that is sourced to a notable critic of Rorty rather than adding a link to a homepage. I imagine that that would be more constructive than accusing people of censorship when they delete your link. — goethean ॐ 15:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classification

In case anyone is wondering, I edited the page so that Pragmatist has a capital P because it refers to a specific school of philosophy, namely Pragmatism. --Damnedkingdom

I have a bad feeling about RR being classified as an "analytical philosopher". For starters, he'd most certainly hate the distinction between continental and analytic philosophy. Secondly, he argues against many theoretical pillars of latter day hard-core analytic philosophy (think representation). I know he's trained in The Analytic Way(tm), but IMO that alone does not make him part of the gang. --Snooweatinganima

I took a course from Rorty Winter 2005, and he characterized the situation like this: he can write analytical philosophy Monday and Wednesday, and romantic/continental philosophy Tuesday and Thursday (echoing the words of William James on belief). He definitely was on the side of the romantic/continental, but delved into writing on both sides. You have to study analytical philosophy if you set out to show why we don't need it! Also, he did use the analytical v. continental dichotamy as the main structure of the course, "the place of philosophy in culture". Mlove 21:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Why are Quine and Sellars called "post-analytic?" What is "post-analytic philosophy" supposed to be (post-logical positivism?), and how were those two figures anything but paradigmatic examples of analytic philosophers?

Right, I was wondering about that too. This awful habit of creating neologisms by adding cool prefixes should stop. It can easily be said "late analytical philosophers" or "analytical philosophers who questioned some early tenets of analytical philosophy", etc. Yet, post-analytical is clearly out of place. I hope I receive answers before I plan to change it. YoungSpinoza 20:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I wrote a phlosophy stub on 'postanalytic philosophy' several months ago. I feel the use of the term to describe Quine is quite appropriate--Sellars, less so. However, it is nonetheless a commonly used term to describe those who write along an analytic vein but who believe also in writing on issues that bear a social valence. Rorty, I think, is the quintessential postanalytic philosopher in this sense. Not all 'postanalytic thinkers,' however, must disavow analytic philosophy such as Rorty has. It's simply a loosely used term to describe such detachments and to deter the use of the term 'postmodern' for the same sorts of ascriptions. --Kallath 02:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Philosophical Lexicon comment

The Philosophical Lexicon comment at the beginning of the article was removed as NPOV, though I think it is very deftly placed and perfectly NPOV: it summarizes Rorty in a way that is not offensive yet clever, and it gives some acknowledgement to the point of view of the clever/humorous, not to be totally upstaged by the somber/dry POV normally part of the gut reaction when creating academic biographies. In fact, I think it's a very good example of NPOV balance: this is the only place in the article as it is now where humor is really relevant, and it does its job well! —Tarnas 06:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reception and criticism

I don't find this section very helpful - the explanation of the criticisms from the "left" and the "right" are so generally stated as to be meaningless, and the cross referencing to Nagel and Nozick doesn't help, as neither of those articles mentions the criticisms they have made of Rorty. Could someone perhaps expand on the criticisms, or provide references as to where they could be found, so I can do it? ElectricRay 09:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

If you are looking for an absolutely brilliant thrashing of Rortian relativism (and a clear and compelling explanation of exctly why his positions cannout but entail relativism and self-contradiction), see Berel Lang Rorty Scrivener in The Anatomy of Philosophical Style. --Lacatosias 13:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

PS Lang is not a right-winger. This artcile is silly to suggest that those who charge Rorty with relativism and incoherence are all right-wingers. I'm a socialist, by god, and I reject both Rorty and relativism!!--Lacatosias 13:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

-- For one of the most important philosophers of our day, the Rorty entry is pretty skimpy. Any ideas on where to go from here, to beef it up and give a sense of why Rorty's work is so significant?

Popularity is not equivelent to importance. Certainly Nietzche is infinitely more popular and famous than Gottlob Frege (how many people have even heard of Frege?? and he might never have been known at all if not for Russell) but whose contibutions to logic and philsophy of language were more important??

Obviously Frege.--Lacatosias 14:08, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

After stating a truism "Popularity is not equivalent to importance", you ask a pretty silly and loaded question... as if Nietzsche's primary goal was influence on the academic study of logic. He desired wider cultural influence. And if you consider total philosophical influence, and not just the narrow confines of analytic philosophy, I think it is obvious that Nietzsche was far more influential... Nobody said popularity was equivalent to importance, the two just happen to correlate.

If you consider the fact that the extraordinary revolution in logic initiated in large part by Frege (quantification theory, the function-argument anaylsis of sentences, etc) contributed eventually to the development of theoretical computer science, practical computer science, mathematics, linguistics and almost every other field of scientific human endeavor, Frege was infinitely more important to the development of human knowledge and to the improvement of the human condition tha Neitzche. As I said, "popularity is not nearly equivelaent to importance" and they may not even be correlated. Witness the fame and popularity of Jacques Derrida and other postmodenist scribblers of meanignless, unimportant horseshit. Furthermoer, Adolf Hitler was very popular and influential too. He was indeed important!! Why? Well, not because he contributed anything positive to humanity obviously. I would argue that the same is true of Neitzche. Just a fashionable nutcase with weird ideas that appeal to people's desire to feel self-important. I read eveything he write and got past it (saw through it) when I was 17. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, the examples you mention are ridiculously loaded. You only mention scientific knowledge. Why don't you ask who had more influence in areas of the creative arts and humanistic knowledge? We were discussing importance, so the bit about being beneficial to the human condition is irrelevant. You obviously have strong and (highly) contentious opinions about what counts as valid knowledge, but this isn't really the appropriate place to start throwing around your assertions, value judgements and personal anecdotes.

[edit] big mistake here

you guys claim he supports hermeneutics but:

Int: Do you still believe that epistemology should be replaced by hermeneutics?

Rorty: No, I think it was an unfortunate phrase. I wish I'd never mentioned hermeneutics. The last chapter of Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature isn't very good. I think I just should have said: we ought to be able to think of something more interesting to do than keep the epistemology industry going.

src: http://www.unc.edu/%7Eknobe/rorty.html (his site)

[edit] taskforce

This article has been improved by the Cleanup Taskforce to conform with a higher standard of quality. Please see its Cleanup Taskforce page for more details on this process, and possible ideas on how you can further improve this article!

Hey, I'm looking in on behalf of the Cleanup Taskforce. The article seems to me to be fairly clearly written with proper grammar and the rest. The only comment I would have is a lack of references. Is there anything else that needs to be done here? Kerowyn 23:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Rorty's major work is the Mirror of Nature (or something like that). I read a chapter from, but was not sure exactly how to situate it with respect to ascribing it some sort of philosophical position. The short paragraph in this article about the book greatly helped me figure out, to some extent, a starting place for figuring out Rorty's position. However, the paragraph in this article is short, stubby, and needs to be expanded upon. Rorty is an important (albeit heavily criticized) philosopher. It would be doing him justice to expand upon the section on his major works, fully explicating his philosophical positions and assertions. Kevin L. 17:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Well then maybe we should merge the article on Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature with this one. — goethean ॐ 17:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I have been re-assigned this task and I found these external links to non-English sites. I have removed these for the moment and unless there is a specific reason for it to go back in, it will not reside in the original content.

• Rorty: pragmatismo, ironismo liberal y solidaridad | En Revista Observaciones Filosóficas
• | Ensayo: Rorty, La Filosofía como género literario | en A Parte Rei, Madrid

It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.

Nivus|(talk)|(desk) 10:34, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suffering versus Cruelty

The article originally said that Rorty was endeavoring to describe a society singularly opposed to suffering, when in actuality, no such language appears in his work. Rather, the term 'cruelty' is used. There's a fundamental difference between suffering and cruelty. One is an imposition to produce suffering, the other is a response to imposition, deliberate or not. The latter can lead to social progress when it is made into "statements of autonomy," or "private self-image" as Rorty would later rephrase it to me. As specious as the difference seems, it exists, and I think it would be a misattribution to keep 'suffering' instead of 'cruelty' in the article.

Wrong. Rorty usually refers to cruelty, which for him is the ultimate sin. But he definitely also at times refers to suffering. He often endorses redescriptions as a way to sensitise us to the suffering of others, and in doing so, make it harder for us to be cruel to them. See p xvi of Contingency, Irony and Solidarity, p 213 of Objectivity, Relativism and Truth, and also his essay, "Human Rights, Rationality and Sentimentality" for just a couple of examples.

As to to the issue of eliminating suffering, the issue to which I originally responded, you are incorrect. I never said that Rorty didn't write on suffering. I said he wasn't describing a society singularly opposed to suffering. It is precisely the role of suffering you described--the response in others that prompts them to reduce cruelty--that can bring about social progress. It would also be contradictory should Rorty say we need endeavor to eliminate suffering when suffering is the very thing emphasized in works (Nabakov, Dickens, etc.) that tends to bring about social hope and progress, something partially defined by a reduction of cruelty. Suffering, however, is not insoluble with cruelty. Suffering itself can be incurred by recognizing cruelty; thus, a fundamental difference is clear. --Kallath 02:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you are beating up the distinction. Rorty seems to casually throw in the terms almost interchangibly, even though their precise meaning differs. I'm also not sure what you mean by a "society singularly opposed" to suffering. He does say he wants society to be singularly liberal, and he does say liberals want suffering diminished, which would seem to me to suggest a society opposed to suffering. The gradualistic historical consequence of this is the tendency towards the progressive eradication of suffering, as much as it is possible - much like cruelty. I agree he tends to play up the cruelty part more. But I can not see how it is contradictory to 1) have a utopian commitment to the ultimate (although perhaps practically unrealisable) goal of eliminating suffering and 2) using texts to alert us to suffering where it exists in order to encourage us to end it. In reality social hope and social progress would probably never cease, because as we steadily proceeded to eradicate suffering, we would always find more and more subtle (although smaller) examples of it. But it is still a tendency towards its eradication. If this is contradictory, so is the injunction against cruelty. He does at times say that Nabakov etc alert us to our cruelty and thereby enable social progress. However, if we finally eradicate cruelty, how could this proceed fruther? It can proceed because we will always be able to find smaller and smaller examples of cruelty even though we come closer and closer to eradicating it.

[edit] Criticisms

"The most common criticism is that Rorty's work is self-refuting (see Nagel and Nozick for instance)"

It would be really helpful if this article explained the criticism, rather than just mentioning it. In what way is Rorty's work alleged to be self refuting? I have deleted the relevant section until it is explained. ElectricRay 20:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I can remember Nagel referring to Rorty (but not by name) as an idealist in The View From Nowhere, but that's it. — goethean ॐ 20:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism Section Really Weak

I wrote most of this page under a former avatar, and I am happy to see how it has improved. Unfortunately, the criticism section is weasel-word central. Who are these 'some' who see things? I will try and work on this over the next few days. ParvatiBai 02:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)