Talk:Periodic table

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[edit] Archives

Archive 1
Archive 2
Archive 3 - July 2005-March 2006

[edit] Bring table close to the top?

People who go to the Periodic Table page would want to see it displayed prominently on the top of the article, instead of what it is right now where you have to scroll down to look for the table.--Buzoo 12:39, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, or at least have a link at the top of the page to the templates. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 15:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

i, too, agree, maybe even enough to motivate me to do it... 66.159.227.105 20:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

So it's got a prominent link at the top now. It's intentionally an internal link to the section on the local page, not to the Periodic table (standard) page. As was noted in this edit, "page-internal link loads instantly; another article takes up to several seconds to load". That's a reasonable reason, and no change from that to the other page appears to have had any rebuttal or other rationale. Let's not revert-war...please get some consensus for use of the external-page link before changing it. DMacks 00:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Just for a note, I moved the Table all the way to the top, since the page is mainly about the Periodic Table, the table itself should be located in the most visible place. --GeorgeTopouria 19:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally I don't think this was a great move - whilst it's fine having the table itself near the top, the text under it is not especially well written (it was intended as end-of-the-article-style footnotes), it contains decided un-scientific wordings like "huge periodic table" (which might confuse a novice into thinking that's a commonly used term!), and the important lead-in text explaining what groups and periods now comes after this stuff.--feline1 17:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you can try to rewrite it then? I'd do it myself, but since is a much-visited page, I would leave it to the native speakers.

--GeorgeTopouria 16:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Errr...help?

"....reducing the validity of the quantum mechanical orbital approximation model, which considers each atomic orbital as a separate entity." 59.100.65.126 can anyone dumb this part down? --User:lalalalala 10:05pm, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too much high-school chemistry

Just a general grumble with this article - there is too much of what I'd call "high school chemistry" - that is, rather simplistic "explanations" for chemical behaviour in terms of "tendencies to acquire a full valence shell" etc etc. This is all very well if you're a 14-year old kid studying formation of simple binary compounds in the s and p blocks, but falls a little short of the more sophisticated thermodynamic and quantum mechanical / Molecular orbital notions at university level. Someone with a chemistry degree really needs to go through and sharpen it all up a bit... I'm a bit too busy right now myself though ;-) Any other takers? --feline1 10:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The periodic table is high-school chemistry, isn't it? In itself the table is very superficial; atomic numbers, atomic masses, reactivity, simple chemistry. I don't think the article should be more detailed, it should be less detailed, and the deeper chemical and physical properties should be covered by links to thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, molecular orbitals, etc. --Eddi (Talk) 11:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The periodic table is just CHEMISTRY, all of it! :) But that's not what I'm getting at, anyways - it's just that there's lot of little sentences inserted into the article "explaining" things using very simple (ie basically wrong) models. You are maybe right that it would get too confusing to replace them with "proper" explanations - in which case perhaps just stripping this sort of stuff out would be better.--feline1 11:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that a good article would have both the oversimplified high-schoolish models and the detailed explanations. I think both could be presented without confusing the reader. But that would take a lot of work. I hope you do it when you're less busy! Flying Jazz 17:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Differences in classification of groups

Could someone knowledgeable about this please properly clarify the classification of the groups. I know that in the UK, all school curriculum materials up to at least A-level classify the groups of the periodic table as 1-8/0 or I-VIII, so the 1-18 classification grouping is confusing to me. Not to sound egocentric, but I know for a fact that if I find it confusing, there will be others who do as well. -- Sasuke Sarutobi 15:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The first sentence in the Groups section of this page links to the Periodic table group page, which explains the 1-18 scheme. DMacks 06:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Why not add the other (roman letters) classification in bold below the 1-18 classification? I can see this was done in the Periodic table (large version) and to a lesser degree in the Periodic table (big). I too am used to the roman groups especially since semiconductor physics uses this classification. The Semiconductor materials page also mentions the materials in the roman groups. -- The Enthusiastic Student 01:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The preferred terminology used by IUPAC is used. There's little point perpetuating obsolte, deprecated terminology in such a prominant place in the article, in my opinion. Moreover it's not really very confusing! As group N just becomes group N-teen under IUPAC - cf. the 12hour verus the 24hour clock....--feline1 17:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confirmed elements vague

The top of the article claims

The current table contains 112 confirmed elements

but under the arrangement section it says

As of 2005, the table contains 116 chemical elements whose discoveries have been confirmed.

Clicking on elements 112, 113, and 114 give reasonable evidence of their existence. The same is hard to say for 115: only 4 atoms existed for a few milliseconds? (But other researchers agree.) 116 seems a little more solid, despite its shady history.

So is the proper number of confirmed elements 112, 115 or 116? —EncMstr 19:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

112, 114 and 116 afaik Elk Salmon 21:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where 112 came from, 112 was discovered like 10 years ago If I remember correctly. 116 is the generally accepted number at this point. A few milliseconds is enough time to confirm the existence of a particular isotope. None of the elements beyond Seaborgium (106) have lasted for more than a few seconds with many being in the millisecond range. --Nebular110 21:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] So Where is Oil?

Just curious. Anwar 14:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

"Oil" is not on the periodic table because it's not an element—it's a class of compounds and mixtures of compounds. DMacks 19:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for the individual element pages

What bout a box at the end with "preceded by" and "succeeded by", kind of like presidents and sports champions? Yeah, the succession isn't in time, but it'd be a useful feature. JCCyC 21:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

To do this right, you'd want what's to the left/right/above/below. And indeed that is already present in the infobox at the very beginning of each element article, as clickable element symbols to the left and above the periodic table image. DMacks 13:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ununennium

The other, as yet, undiscovered elements reference Ununennium in their articles. This element doesn't have a place holder on the table in this article, like the others do. Why is this?--Jcvamp 03:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

No element of period 8 has ever been made, there'd be no point in extending the standard table with another row to look like periodic table (extended). Period 7 simply gets filled up with placeholders until the usual shape is full. Femto 12:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. It makes me wonder how many elements are possible.--Jcvamp 18:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Some time ago, there was speculation that there may be an 'island of stability' beyond the current table. The semi-empirical mass formula suggested that, if we can 'get past' the run of highly unstable nuclei, we may be able to manufactrure some relatively stable heavy elements. Is this thinking still current? StuFifeScotland 14:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

One missing piece of data is the average binding energy per nucleon for each isotope. Someone needs to make this a project and add this data field.

[edit] Average Binding Energy per Nucleon

This data is missing and is needed for each isotope.

[edit] Neptunium

The above article reads: "Trace amounts of neptunium are found naturally as decay products from transmutation reactions in uranium ores". In this article it is marked with a dotted border: "those with dotted borders are synthetic elements, which do not occur naturally". Does need fixing? Yonidebest 04:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Same problem with Technetium. Its article says, "On earth, technetium occurs naturally only in uranium ores as a product of spontaneous fission; the quantities are minute but have been measured," but it's in a dotted box instead of a dashed one. LifeMega 06:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The trace amounts are the point. This traces were found after the element was produced by transmutation. It was never isolated in quantities capable to do any experiments with it. In literature they are mostly still considered synthetic. The names change slowly, but they should.--Stone 08:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This splitting of atoms in "atoms that lack stable isotopes, but occur naturally" and "atoms that only exist in manufactured form" is a bit outmoded - I haven't seen a serious table in 20 years that still uses it. It will only ever be a guess at best. In practice, everything from Bismuth up to and including Uranium is labelled as "natural but unstable", reflecting how they were discovered. I would suggest changing the table so that everything up to Bismuth but excluding Technetium and Prometium is labelled as stable, and all the others as unstable, or rather "lacking stable isotopes". Uranium and Thorium do not have stable isotopes - they have isotopes with very long halflifes (4.5 billion and 15 billion or thereabouts, but they do decay).

Neptunium does not occur naturally today, other than in minute trace amounts. It can be proven that Neptunium did at one point exist on Earth. The evidence for this is somewhat complicated, but I'll go over it quickly - there are four chains of radioactive decay, one each for U235, U238, Th232 and Np237. Atoms only decay within each chain - they can't skip to another. The most stable element in the Np237 chain is Np237 (hence the name). That chain is almost "dead" - everything having decayed into a stable isotope - but not quite, and that there are still unstable isotopes left indicates that there must have been Np237 in non-trace amounts on Earth at some point after Big Bang. In the same way, Pu239 MAY have existed naturally on Earth, but that cannot be proven, because it would decay into U235, which is much more stable.

This decay includes only alfa, beta and gamma decay. Spontaneous fisson can create anything smaller than the decaying atom, so no real "chain" of decay.

[edit] Humorous Uses of the Periodic Table

I notice that such a highly scientific matter should be devoid of humour.

This entry was inserted by me on 24 September 2006, and promptly removed.

The musicologist Peter Schickele has a Periodic Table of Musics that lists the names of composers and performers against mythical element names in a table format.

12:14, 24 September 2006 User:Ydoommas (Talk | contribs) (This has very little to do with the Periodic Table of Elements which should be kept scientific, not humorous.)

10:29, 24 September 2006 User:Peter Ellis (Talk | contribs) (Schickele's table)

I would contend that the Schickele table has at least a little to do with the periodic table:

The form of Schickele's table is deliberately reminiscent of the periodic table;
Many 'elements' in Schickele's table are named to be readily confused with those in the periodic table;
The manner in which Schickele's table citations are constructed are reminiscent of the elements;

Under this heading the Idiotic Table of Elements], already linked, could also find a home.

If this is not a place to mention Schickele's table then I assume that it would be appropriate to include a See Also reference to his page. Peter Ellis 03:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

This is an article on a specific topic, not a web directory to derived works. An external link to the work of a particular person belongs in their article, to which a seealso with a short description of its relevance would be appropriate here. Bare links however to just another of the literally thousands of periodic table sites on the web should be avoided, not to mention parody sites that don't contribute at all to the actual encyclopedic topic. Femto 11:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some help here?

Hi, folks! I'm trying to figure out how to make feminum. Anybody know anything? I want to make my girlfriend some Wonder Woman bracelets. Thanks, -- Macmelvino 20:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Doh! Obviously you don't make it. You go to her remote native isle and mine it.[1] — EncMstr 20:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I just got back. They wouldn't let me on the island. Something about my being too manly. Thanks anyway, tho'. Anymore ideas? -- Macmelvino 22:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technetium

This element does occur naturally in the earths crust, but in really tiny amounts through extraordinary circumstance.

[edit] Confirmed elements

Recently, the number of confirmed elements at the top of the article was changed from 116 to 117, following the reported discovery of ununoctium. I don't think this is warranted at all, because I don't think we can call the discovery confirmed so soon after it was reported.

This also raises the question of which elements should be called confirmed. Have the creations of elements 112 through 116 been independently replicated? Not, it would seem, as of October 3, 2005, based on this IUPAC table (PDF). A note below the table reads, "Elements with atomic numbers 112 and above have been reported but not fully authenticated." Eric119 05:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] element 118 detected not synthesized

from element 118:

On October 10, 2006, researchers from Russia's Joint Institute for Nuclear Research and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California announced in Physical Review C that they had indirectly detected element 118 produced via collisions of californium and calcium atoms in Dubna, Russia.

in chemistry synthesis is a means of production: you can actually store the compound in a bottle. No need to revert my edit V8rik 21:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because you can produce it doesn't mean what you produced is actually storable IMO. And actually they didn't even detect it directly, and "it" only existed because they made it. Sounds like synthesis to me. DMacks 21:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

That's correct. Just because you can produce something in Chemistry doesn't mean you can store it in a bottle for evermore, especially given the half lives of radioactive elements, some of which are well below 1 second. Anyway, you can store Ununoctium in a bottle even if it's just for the 0.89ms it exists for.

"The decay products of three atoms, not the atoms themselves, have been observed in Dubna [1] [2]. A half-life of 0.89 ms has been observed: 118 decays into 116 by alpha decay. 116 is very unstable and is eliminated in a fraction of a second: it decays into 114, which may undergo spontaneous fission or undergo alpha decay into 112, which will undergo spontaneous fission. [3]"

[edit] Synthetic/Artifical Dispute

Greetings, the simple but wrong answer to the 'which elements occur in nature and which only exist in synthetic form' is that 90 elements (1-92, minus 43 and 61) are 'natural'.

The attempt to move to a three-tier system: natural in significant quantities (exists in stable form)

natural in trace quantities (exists only as byproduct of radioactive decay)

not found in nature (synthetic)

is a step in the right direction. I note the article on 'transuranium element' claims that

Of the elements with atomic numbers 1 to 92, all but four (43-technetium, 61-promethium, 85-astatine, and 87-francium) occur in easily detectable quantities on earth, having stable, or very long half life isotopes, or are created as common products of the decay of uranium.

However, it's possible that some of the other elements in the 84-91 range could also fall into this category. Anyone else like to leave comments?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 09:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] suggestion to rearrange page

Hi all, I just noticed someone moved the periodic table up. I do concur with his/her reasoning, most people come for the table, not for the story. Could people comment on the following suggestion: split this page into a page 'periodic table' which contains a periodic table, and one link to a {{main}} article, which contains the whole story? --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Metals section contradicts itself

I'm not a chemist, but even I can see that the non-metals section is ambiguous, contradictory, and not very accurate. For example, the statements about gases cannot all be true, and everyone knows that carbon conducts electricity quite well (which is why it's used in motor brushes).

The linked version of the periodic table that shows metals, non-metals and metalloids in different colours depicts the metalloids as forming a neat buffer band between the metals and non-metals. This buffer band cuts across five groups, contrary to what's stated here. However, I haven't a clue whether this information is any more accurate than the text. It needs sorting out and I'm not qualified to do it. StuFifeScotland 21:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I have re-written a portion of the nonmetal section and removed some of the blatantly incorrect information (like the statement about nonmetals being neither metals nor gases for example). I've added what I think is a better description based on my knowledge and some references. Still, chemistry is not quite my area of expertise either so it would probably still benefit from a better review. I also removed the statement about the nonmetals being the elements in groups 14-16 of the table. Some members of these groups are indeed nonmetals but not all of them. The halogens (group 17) and the nobel gases (group 18) are also considered nonmetals. As far as Carbon conducting electricity, it is only Graphite that is used in such applications as you mentioned above. In general, nonmetals do not conduct electricity. Graphite is one of the exceptions, it contains free electrons which is the property that allows it to conduct electrically charged particles whereas diamonds, the other well-known allotrope of carbon, does not conduct electricity.--Nebular110 22:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oh boy, that's fast! The new version is much better! Good work! Pity you didn't include the interesting bit about carbon allotropes to emphasise how careful one has to be with these categories of properties. StuFifeScotland 10:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  - Done, both here and at nonmetal. --Nebular110 00:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
    - Nice work! I've added that bromine is a liquid. StuFifeScotland 16:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alien Periodic Table

I added a page on one of the chemical elements of the "alien" periodic table.

[edit] Confirmed by whom?

One of the sentences states: "The current standard table contains 117 confirmed elements". Confirmed by whom? For example, I have a periodic table that is all in Russian. It is written in the Cyrillic alphabet. It identifies element 104 as "Ku" and 105 as "Ns" (sorry, can't read Cyrillic, so I don't know what these are). Who is the final arbiter of the Periodic Table?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.46.193.3 (talk • contribs) .

Naming of substances is done by the IUPAC, I guess they also define an element as a 'confirmed element'. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 17:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Generally accepted to exist by consensus of scientists, "confirmed" in the usual scientific sense as "data has been validated and is reproducible by others". DMacks 17:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a link to a useful IUPAC page: http://www.iupac.org/general/FAQs/elements.html --Mycroft.Holmes 18:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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