Talk:Mahatma Gandhi

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mahatma Gandhi article.
Please sign and date your posts using four tildes (~~~~). New discussion topics go at the bottom of the page; click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Frequently asked questions. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Talk page guidelines Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Don't bite the newcomers!

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
FA	This article has been rated as FA-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Core	This article is listed on this Project's core biographies page.
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject India.
FA	Quality: FA-Class (add comments)
	This article is maintained by the Indian politics workgroup.
More information about this article... Top Importance: Top-importance This article is a selected article on the India portal, which means that it was selected as a high quality India-related article. This article is a selected article on the Gujarat portal.

Mahatma Gandhi is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.

Mahatma Gandhi is either included in the Wikipedia CD Selection or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version (the project page is at WPCD Selection). Please maintain high quality standards, and if possible stick to GFDL and GFDL-compatible images.

Mahatma Gandhi appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 1, 2005.

Mahatma Gandhi has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This page has been selected for the Version 0.5 release of Wikipedia and rated FA-Class on the assessment scale. It is in the category History.

This page has been selected for the release version of Wikipedia and rated FA-Class on the assessment scale. It is in the category History.

This article is a former featured article removal candidate. Please see the archive to see why its featured status was upheld.

WikiProject Featured articles in other languages has identified Mahatma Gandhi as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the Arabic,  Portuguese,  Serbian or Vietnamese language Wikipedias.

---

Selected on Template:March 18 selected anniversaries
/summary -This is a barebones version for use in initiating translations to other languages. Please do not remove or expand . Feel free to enter essential only data but remember that too many details will exhaust and confuse the translation process.--Jondel 01:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Talk archives

1. Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Archive 1 This archive contains discussions upto February 2005. Some content has been moved to topic specific talk archives. (see below)
2. Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Archive 2 This archive contains discussions approximately dated from February 2005 to Novmber 2005. Some content moved to topic specific archives listed below.
3. Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Archive 3 This archive contains duscussions approximately dated from November 2005 to September 2006.
4. Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Mahatma_vs._Mohandas Please refer this archive if you think the article should be moved to another name. It has been an issue of dispute as to how this article should be named. If you have any new comments, first check to see if a similar opinion has already been discussed in former discussions. Any new comments should go on on this main talk page, not the archive. Do not move the article to a new location without discussion, under any circumstances. The current name is a result of exhaustively discussed consensus among editors.
5. Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Gandhi and the Jews: Whether he was 'Racist' If you feel the article is not written from a neutral point of view, and have reasons to believe that Gandhi might have been a racist, and that this has been ignored, or not adequately mentioned in the article, consult this archive first.
6. Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Dying words controversy

[1] Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/NPOV Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Celibacy

---

Contents 1 "Artistic depictions" edits and... 2 Citation needed, shortening needed 3 Wife beater? 4 A racist? 5 Trimming bottom sections 6 Cultural depictions of Mahatma Gandhi 7 Name 8 Truth is God and Faith in God. 9 Toilet stuff missing from Principles

[edit] "Artistic depictions" edits and...

Please see the changes made in Mahatma Gandhi. The subsection "Artistic depictions" was shortened, and a new daughter article (Artistic depictions of Mahatma Gandhi) created by shifting contents from Mahatma Gandhi. Please see if the changes are ok.

Also, the subsection "Mahatma" - does it merit a seperate seb-section at all? The thing can be discussed in lead, or in other places, with the mostly believed idea (that Rabindranath Tagore named him Mahatma) stated...and with a footnote describing the other claim(s). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed, shortening needed

The following portion needs citation and shortening:

"Mohandas Gandhi's sleeping arrangements attracted public attention during the winter of 1946-47, when he was trying to quell violence between Muslims and Hindus in the Noakhali district in what is now Bangladesh. It came out that Gandhi was sleeping nightly with his 19-year-old grandniece, Manu. In part this was an effort to stay warm in the winter chill, but Gandhi soon acknowledged there was more to it: he was testing his vow of brahmacharya, or total chastity in thought and deed. If he could spend the night in a woman's embrace without feeling sexual stirrings, it would demonstrate that he had conquered his carnal impulses and become "God's eunuch." It turned out that Manu was not his first brahmacharya lab partner--he'd also recently gotten naked (partly, at least) with another young woman in his extended family, starting when she was 18.

There were quite a few raised eyebrows in India. One of the most vocal critics was Nirmal Kumar Bose, a university lecturer who served as Gandhi's interpreter in Noakhali. While conceding that no intercourse had taken place (Gandhi and his entourage typically all slept in the same room) Bose protested that the master was exploiting the women, each of whom felt she had a special place in his affections and became "hysterical" if slighted. (Refer the account by author Ved Mehta in his 1976 New Yorker series on Gandhi and his followers.) Gandhi, far from being abashed, vigorously defended himself in meetings, letters, and articles, arguing that making a woman "the instrument of my lust" would be far more exploitative than what he actually did.

Remarkably, the critics eventually quieted down. Even Bose, who quit in protest and later discussed the issue in a book, My Days With Gandhi, remained an admirer. Gandhi continued to sleep with women until his assassination in 1948, and the matter is little remembered today. The esteem in which Gandhi was held no doubt partly accounts for the lack of repercussions, along with his advanced age. His notoriously eccentric views on sex may have been a factor too. Gandhi believed that sex for pleasure was sinful (for that matter, he felt eating chocolate was sinful), that sexual attraction between men and women was unnatural, and that husband and wife should live together as brother and sister, having sex only for purposes of procreation."

While the sleeping fact has been noted in several literatures (so citation should not be a problem), the portion is much larger in volume than it probably deserves in the article. People with knowledge in this regard are requested to help. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wife beater?

Did Gandhi beat his wife?

Yes (I think) in the beginning. He had changed his attitude towards his wife and marriage in South Africa. Rama's arrow 03:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

He has never beaten his wife but shoved her as per his biography (Saraths 04:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] A racist?

Yep. And he was a racist, too. A great man in many respects, but a racist. And, no, Rama's Arrow. Including such information in the article under "Criticism" is perfectly valid. It should not be obliterated with a dismissive edit note calling it "nonsense" -- as you have done. It is no different from dealing with Sally Hemmings and slavery in the article on Thomas Jefferson. Wikipedia is no place for censorship. No subject is sacrosanct. deeceevoice 15:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPOV, WP:POINT, WP:CITE, WP:SOURCE, WP:RS. Editors have often discussed such claims before so you are also requested to check out the talkpage archives here. Rama's arrow 16:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The charges of racism are well known and completely valid. Don't quote wiki policy to me when you are clearly in violation of it. You oblitered accurate, relevant, adequately sourced information with a completely meaningless and dismissive (uncivil) edit note that in no way justified the edit. You have yet to offer any justification for removing the information. Why is it not relevant? And how is it "nonsense"? Finally, absolutely none of your nice, little links has any relevance whatsoever to the edits I've made. If anything, they apply to your behavior -- and not mine. Unless and until you can justify your deletion of the material, I will continue to insert it. deeceevoice 16:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Khalistan.com is a POV source. Please see WP:RS. Also I request you to see the talkpage archives here as I think this issue has been previously discussed numerous times. Rama's arrow 16:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah! A mere technicality. That's all you had to say, that the Khalitsan website is considered a POV source. Your unhelpful, disrespectful edit note gave no indication of the nature of your objection and -- again -- clearly is a violation of wiki policy. And that business about "disruption" is just bluster -- to use your word -- utter "nonsense." I'll be happy to provide the same information from a NPOV source, then, so you will have no credible objection -- because the historical record is clear: Gandhi was an anti-black bigot. deeceevoice 16:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

This resource must absolutely refer to Gandhi's outspoken hatred of black Africans. This is not eulogy, it's biography. Gandhi was no more a defender of human rights than, say, Farrakhan; he was defender of his own race against everyone else. Let's kill another modern myth. 86.17.209.251 20:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

PS As for evidence, just check Gandhi's own paper published in South Africa, Indian Opinion, in which he wrote of his racial beliefs "in four languages", writing at least a dozen columns inciting Indians in Africa to attack black Africans. Oh, and by the way, he also slept with young naked girls. 86.17.209.251 20:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't this covered in the article? There is even a book about how he viewed Sikhs, Untouchables, how he covered up the murder of Euro-American William Francis Doherty at the hands of Gandhi followers, and the aforementioned black South Africans. The book is called Gandhi: Behind the Mask of Divinity by G. B. Singh. Gandhi was also one of three different "saints," if you will, covered on Showtime Channel's Penn & Teller: Bullshit! (Holier Than Thou, episode 305 [Season 3, episode 5]. The two others were Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama). There was even backlash of the unveiling of a Gandhi statue in Johannesburg, South Africa in October 2003. These criticisms should be included in the article, even with a rebuttal if there are any. You can read the following websites for more information: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10].

There are of course sensible rebuttals, that while he may have had ill-feelings towards black South Africans early in his life his views may have changed. People, including those highly revered, have the right to change their mind over time. [11] (look for Koryo's post second to the last post), [12] (the post by Anil Nauriya) -- WiccaIrish 15:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC) [updated 06:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)]

[edit] Trimming bottom sections

Hi - my removal of data from the "legacy" section reflects 4 main concerns (a) this article is too long, (b) no need to list so many statues of Gandhi and (c) the films/video games etc. is all too new and overplayed in importance. "Gandhigiri" deserves one sentence - the rest belongs to the article on the film itself. Also (d) the film poster and postage stamps are to be used to describe the stamps/film in question, not Gandhi - this is a "fair use" issue. Rama's arrow 23:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW postage stamps aren't a copyright issue: they're specifically excluded from copyright law. See below for a solution to the cultural material. Durova 18:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Mahatma Gandhi

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Shouldn't the article use his real name, instead of his nickname? 24.227.116.226 03:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Truth is God and Faith in God.

Gandhi was not awarded Noble Prize. Is there any relation between Truth, God and Noble Prize? vkvora 14:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe racist reasons why he never got it. But also he himself was extremely racist against Africans. Also, various people, including Freud, accused him of pedophilia.. which, as you mentioned it, has its own rather substantial relationship with men of god.. maybe more in christianity and islam than hinduism, which is more open sexually, but never underestimate the perversions of the powerful. JeffBurdges 10:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Toilet stuff missing from Principles

As I understand it, Gandhi wrote extensively about excrement, latrine cleaning, and enemas (cute quote "The bathroom is a temple. It should be so clean and inviting that anyone would enjoy eating there"). Can anyone who knows about such writings add a subsection to principles? JeffBurdges 10:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)