Talk:Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd GIG

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Contents 1 Cartoon Network 2 Particulist Eleven 3 Re: Expansion tag 4 Episodes 23-26 Information 5 Am I the only one... 6 Alternate Timeline Manga/Film confusion? (SPOILERS - all around - SAC, SAC2, GITS movies and manga) 7 Episode 26 fansub is out 8 Character name transliterations 9 Coincidence? 10 Took out tv-premiere template 11 Ep. 2 takes place on Christmas, 2031? 12 Time to branch the episode list 13 Some questions and comments/finds 14 Where do you exist? 15 Refugees? 16 Particularist Eleven and Gouda articles? 17 DVD info? 18 Genre 19 Genre 20 Article 9 in 2nd GIG History section 21 Little Fact 22 Acroynm? 23 Proposed merge -to- SAC article 24 Should I add/remove this to the trivia? 25 Mexican War

[edit] Cartoon Network

Cartoon Network was showing episodes of 2nd Gig in 2004. I particularly remember Grass Labyrinth, unless there was an episode similar to it in the first season Hackwrench 19:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

You're misremembering then ... 2nd Gig wasn't even dubbed into English in 2004, let alone shown on CTN. --Cyde 08:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like it could've been episode 12 from GitS:SAC (Tachikoma Runs Away; The Movie Director's Dream – ESCAPE FROM). The 2nd GIG has never aired on CN until now. Atleast, not to my knowledge, or to the knowledge of CN's website.

Just like I said, "The 2nd Gig" couldn't possibly have been aired on CN until now because the dub translation wasn't done. It's a chronology issue. --Cyde 23:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, no one is ignoring you, so don't worry. I was just being a little pert with the website bit. Ereinion 07:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Particulist Eleven

Note for later expansion: The "Particulist Eleven" refers to the 11 Naval officers involved in the real life May 15 incident, which lead to the military control of the Japanese government before World War II. crazyeddie 18:21, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Expansion tag

The page needs information on the last of the series episodes, and entries on such things as technology and references to the first season and its output on the series would be apreciated. Admittedly, the series has not yet released in the U.S. as of this writing, but someone out there has got to have info they can add. TomStar81 00:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Episodes 23-26 Information

For episode synopsis in English see Official Production I.G. S.A.C. Wesite

I have updated the episode synopsis while trying to keep it spoiler-free. --GoogleMonkey 17:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

It should also be noted that the summaries so far, including those translated from Production IG, do nothing to describe the "personal"/metaphysical thread of the story as played out between Motoko, Kuze, and Gouda. To do so would probably constitute a spoiler.

[edit] Am I the only one...

Who LOVED GitS and GitS:SAC but hates Second Gig? Yes, they ditched the Major's bathing suit (Kudos!) but the series still seems unnecessarily dark and a litle too heavy on exposition. Palm_Dogg 04:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

YES You Are

Am I the only one who's living in France right now, hearing reports come in about riots and tear gas in the square where I went to buy books the day before — and when Dominique de Villepin says "some of the violence had been organized through Internet blogs", am I the only one who thinks "Stand Alone Complex?" Anville 21:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I personally find 2nd GIG to be a little better than SAC, since it still has the same amazing and twisting plot (well, more twists this time) but with a little more action too. Plus the background info on some characters is a pretty nice touch. I do agree with ditching the bathing suit though, now the Major actually appears "normal." And what do ou mean by "unnecessarily dark"? It's a little gory and bloody and some scenes, but it's not that bad... (compared to most other anime or media...)

No you're not the only one. So far, 2nd GIG has been a little dissapointing. It's not terribly exiciting to see 70's movies and old bits of history re-done in anime, where the sci-fi aspects are just used as deus-ex-machina reasons for why things are. The 2nd episode, the TAXI DRIVER homage, bothered me in particular.--Armentage

Agreed. You can tell the studio only created it because the first one did well. They seemed to only "cut and paste" from other areas, then made it up to look enticing and fresh. They should have taken their own advice and done another remake, putting the cast in another storyline, one that assumed SAC never happened. You can still character develop without weighing them down that way. Eluchil 00:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but 2nd GIG was terrible. I was shocked by some of the things that the "good guys" did. In one episode, they essentialy murdered one of the bad guys by running his car off the rode when he was driving home from court. In another, Motoko offers to have sex with a young kid. And, in the final episode, they blow Goda away with a machine gun for no good reason. He wasn't resisting arrest and legaly, he had every right to go. Also, wouldn't one shot have killed him? Why did she shoot him like twenty times? Can someone say police brutality?

She wasn't "offering", she was joking. And they blew Goda away because he was guilty of murder. Just because he had the "right" to go, dosen't mean they should've let him. And it dosen't matter if you get shot one time in the head, or twenty, you're going to be just as dead.

[edit] Alternate Timeline Manga/Film confusion? (SPOILERS - all around - SAC, SAC2, GITS movies and manga)

Is there a source for the assertion in "Trivia" that SAC 2nd GIG is an alternate storyline from GITS (the 1st movie)? Or is this what I've surmised -- that the TV series are re-telling of events in the GITA Manga?

IMO the Manga and TV series certainly may be considered "alternate retellings" or "alternate timelines" because of overlapping events. This is also the case with other Anime / Manga series such as Full Metal Alchemist where the Manga expands upon the plot presented in the Anime (ED: to be precise, that the Anime is a condensation of the material in the Manga). However this series and the films follow each other cleanly, as do SAC and SAC 2nd GIG.

As soon as episode 1 of this series there are references to Project 2501 / The Puppet Master in Major Kusanagi's ability to control one of the terrorists: she refers to her victim as a "puppet"; Bato jokes to the team to have their "back-hack blockers up" before the briefing (certainly advisable if Motoko is now the home for the intermingled personalities / memories of both her original self, the puppet master, and the laughing man!).

But the end of 2nd GIG puts us right at the begining of the first GitS film. Even if you disagree I'm going to remove that tag as it cannot be backed up.

Actually, the background sounds very similar to the history postulated in the Appleseed Databook by Shirow, including the two world wars before 2029 (WWIII is a nuclear war between U.S. and Soviets; WWIV is a war between the European Commonwealth and U.S. and the Asian Alliance) and the "Japanese Miracle". No word on whether the European forces where lead by the false Christ and the true Christ appearing in China right before a giant meteor strikes. --YoungFreud 19:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I just realized the date of the 2nd film is 2032 (from the publisher's descirption of Innocence the novel). This corrobberates the trivia fact! The first GitS film takes place in 2029, and the SAC 1 episodes begin April 2030. --KarlThePagan

Actually, the end of SAC 2nd GIG leads to chapter 2 of the manga. From what I can recall, the date was not mentioned in the manga. Personally, I see both movies as seperate from both the manga and SAC. --Sinbios

I think the process of adapting GiTS from comics and movie to TV series is similar to that of X-men movies from comic books. The use of alternate line time offers writing staff greater artistic freedom in developing the TV series. On the other hand, if the story deviates too much from the original, it will loose the flavour of the original. One way to get around this problem is to incorporate and re-interpretate key events, characters (e.g. Decatoncale, Major jumping off the building, Azuma etc.) from the original into a new alternative timeline/narrative structure. --GoogleMonkey 00:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the chronology is just wrong... The manga and the movie (which is based on the manga) starts Section 9 in the year 2029, but SAC 2nd GIG ends at 2031, so the two similar scenes at the beginning of the manga and the end of 2nd GIG is off by 2 years. I'd say it's pretty much agreed SAC is a alternate universe.

[edit] Episode 26 fansub is out

Laughing Man Fansubs just finished out the series. Torrent links to all 26 episodes are located at the bottom of that page. Enjoy. --Cyde 06:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Laughing Man does do very good fansubs for GiTS S.A.C. considering Ghost in the Shell is one of the hardest anime to translate into English. The down side is that you have to hunt for AC3 codex to play some of the files. I wouldn't recommend any other fansubs. --GoogleMonkey 00:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh? You don't have to hunt for anything. Whenever I need to install AC3 (which is fairly often, because I reinstall Windows regularly and some of my friends aren't tech-savvy), I just Google for "AC3 Filter", download it (it's not terribly big) and install it ... takes five minutes, maximum, and then everything just works. You're right about Laughing Man Fansubs -- he does a great job. --Cyde Weys [u] [t] [c] 00:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

For some strange reason the link isnt working, have the subs been taking off? Empty2005 04:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

That address hasn't worked (for me) for several weeks. I believe some of my friends were able to use BitTorrent to get all the episodes. (I downloaded episode 26 directly from one of their computers, so I don't know how they got it.) Anville 08:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

i've found out a way to get but its only through p2p. On searching type in LMF or lmf and select video all the fansubs will apear! Empty2005 07:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Character name transliterations

Someone is editing the character names to different transliterations, so I'm saying we just stick with the "official" transliterations and not muddy up the issue by offering multiple versions of the transliteration. The names are Japanese, and any English spelling is just going to be an approximation, so might as well just stick with the best approximation and not muddy the issue by listing multiple approximations. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 22:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

We will try to be consistent with spelling. I am not sure whether there is a single "official" spelling convention. Japanese are generally quiet sloppy with transliteration. --GoogleMonkey 00:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

By "official" I meant what is used the American company that the anime has been licensed to. Also, these spellings are consistent with Laughing Man Fansubs, the dominant GitS fansubber. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 00:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You mean the official spelling from the Manga Entertainment US GiTS S.A.C. website.

[edit] Coincidence?

Is it a coincidence that the Cabinet Intelligence Agency, if abbreviated, comes out to CIA, or was that meant as a slam againt the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency? TomStar81 00:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• That's not a slam at all. Japan does, in fact, have an agency whose name, when translated into English, comes out to be Cabinet Intelligence Agency. That a phrase in English has the same initials as a phrase in Japanese translated into English doesn't seem notable to me. Also, I fixed some spelling errors on your part. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 01:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The Cabinet Intelligence Agency is modelled after the real Cabinet Information Research Office, a branch of the Japanese Cabinet Secretariat. Here is the website of the real-life counterpart.[1] --GoogleMonkey 01:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Errrr yeah, amend my comment then. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 01:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Took out tv-premiere template

Someone put on the {{tv-premiere}} template, which looks like this: [the template has been deleted]

I took it off because the series has already premiered and finished its run in Japan. The only thing that's premiering in America is the English dub, which is very unlikely to change any of the details in the article. So I don't think the tag is necessary. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 00:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that was me. I was testing of theory of mine and it worked, but before I could remove the templete from the front page I called for dinner. Sorry about that :/ TomStar81 02:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, you spelled "premiere" incorrectly ... you spelled it "premire". I took the liberty of correcting it for you on all occurrences of the mispelling. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 02:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I can’t spell worth a darn. In all honesty this should have been done in my sandbox, but I couldn’t test the {{{1}}} templete there. TomStar81 03:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ep. 2 takes place on Christmas, 2031?

Some anonymous user inserted into the Trivia section that episode 2 takes place on Christmas Eve, 2031. I removed it for now until someone can provide some evidence in favor of this. I just skimmed over the episode and didn't see any obvious Christmas references, though I must admit it's been months since I last saw the episode in its entirety. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 17:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You have to notice the background graphics behind the newscaster during the TV news programm on channel 33. It says "2031 Channel 33". When Gino is talking about "reset the world" and "tommorow is the day", you can clearly see the wall calendar with the date 25th December circled. There are no signs of Christmas celebration as Japan is not a Christian country. Also, the second season ends with a cherry blossom scene 2032, roughly end of March, begining of April, roughly Easter time.--GoogleMonkey 17:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, I re-added it to the main page. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 19:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Time to branch the episode list

I think the episode list has now gotten significantly long it's distracting from the main article and should be moved into its own page. Any objections? --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 19:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I was playing with the formating. But it didnt go so well, so I revert it back. I should have tried it with the sandbox. --GoogleMonkey 19:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some questions and comments/finds

What does Kuze mean when he says he'll be the first one to go? does he mean he'll be the first one to ascend to the higher structure he's talking about? but isn't it implied heavily that ghosts can't exist in cyberspace? but then again, we have the exception of tachikomas... 2nd gig really leaves a lot of questions unanswered while still having a definate conclusion...

Quite the opposite, I don't think there was any real criticism that a ghost could NOT exist in cyberspace. It just wasn't known if it would work, and there was some doubt on the part of the characters, but nothing was presented that implied it could not be done. At least nothing that I remember. --Smidge204 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

btw, did anyone notice the lines Goudo says at the very end with the CIA agent? it's almost word for word from the one at the beginning of the Gits manga... and surprise, they both died...

Also, did anyone notice that 2nd gig was religious references heavy? They range from minor to very obvious, for example, you have Botou holding a cross shaped support beam at the end (don't know what it means, but it's got to be there and in that shape for a reason); then you have Kuze... punctured hand (cruxifiction of Christ)... bringing the refugees to a higher exsistence/structure/salvation?... sacrifice...? and the apple scene (fruit of knowledge.) There are some more that are more hidden, like the white raven, it represents Branwen, the Goddess of regeneration, of course, I have no idea what this means... maybe Kuze isn't dead? and he might return?

There is a ton of symbolism in the series, not just the second season. Regarding Kuze, the same thing with the Tachikoma. (Just before their AIs are destroyed, there is a scene showing one labeling a data item "Tachikoma's All Memory" and placing it into the space they created for holding the refugees' ghosts.) --Smidge204 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

As for the SAC and movie/manga connection, I don't think there is any, they are just Alternate/Parrelle Universes. If you look, in the manga, Section 9 was form in 2029 and it's the same time in SAC; so that rules out the prequel/sequel theory. But the ending scene of 2nd gig really sparks a lot of questions. It is very similar to the beginning of the book, even the think-tanks look the same. Why?

The only connection is that the creators of the series are giving some recognition to the original Manga. Characters, world designs and storylines are all heavily borrowed from the manga, but this does not mean thay are in any way related. --Smidge204 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

And lastly, does anyone think the end was rused a little? Most people I talked to think the Major and Kuze relationship was a little rushed or empty.

Well they did spend an entire episode to establish that Motoko and Kuze had something of a history, and suggest that they have spent most of their live looking for "something" and feelign lonely/empty without it. I don't know if I would go as far to say it was a relationship, but the attachment between the characters was a long time in the making, chronologically speaking. --Smidge204 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah..remember the episode 'Affection' at the end where Motoko said that that girl is looking for the 'first boy she ever liked'? Now you see it concluding that they are hugging one another.

True, I just noticed after watching it over though. Apperantly, Motoko and Kuze direct linked, so they could have all the time to talk, exchange information, and (BIG maybe) fuse/synchronize?... wow, when you look at it this way, Production IG is pretty smart, giving us a agreeable answer while taking no responsibilty (if it's not said they can't ruin it, it's up to us to speculate...)

[edit] Where do you exist?

I can't remember what episode something was said that I wanted to contemplate some more. Could someone refresh my memory? It was something about how they said the "ghost" might exist inside the person, the group and then something else, but I can't remember what it was! Thanks if you can remember/bring this up again. I know there was a part where tachikomas refered to the satalite as their "other" place but they said human's had another equivalent which I think they explained later on. -Moocats 13:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Refugees?

I read in the article and heard the talk from the minor political characters in the show about the refugees in the city. Where exactly are they in the spectrum of the show, are they just a group with no leader, or are they a metaphor for something else. Ive only seen up to the most recent episode on adult swim. Any information about them and how they relate to the Individual Eleven and clarification would be appreciated.

The refugees' demands for sovereignty are basically used by Gouda and Kuze to achieve their own objectives. They are the catalyst behind the show's main plotline. Feldmarschall 06:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Particularist Eleven and Gouda articles?

I've noticed that a article exists for Laughing Man which was the main case running through 1st Gig. But Articles aren't set up for The Patrticularist Eleven and the Cabinet Intellegence Ministry! Any thought's on creation of the two articles? Empty2005 02:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth the official romanization of those two is "Individual Eleven" and "Gohda". In particular, "Paricularist Eleven" seems to be a simple case of a bad translation. --Cyde Weys 02:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Cyde for the answers!

Nota bene. From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (fourth edition), particularism is defined as the following:

1. Exclusive adherence to, dedication to, or interest in one's own group, party, sect, or nation.
2. A principle of allowing each state in a nation or federation to act independently of the central authority, especially in promoting its own economic interests.

Seems like "Particularist" would work here just as well as "Individualist", with "Objectivist" running a close third, ha ha. In one episode, Boma reads a filename off somebody's external memory, which is "Individual 11". He says the words in English, while the Laughing Man subtitles read "Particularist Eleven". (I think it's in episode 12.) Maybe that gives the "individualist" translation more clout, but enough people have seen the Laughing Man fansubs that we should at least provide a redirect. Anville 15:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DVD info?

Anyone think bringing info of the volume and box sets into the article aswell for 1st Gig is a good idea? Thanks Empty2005 06:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genre

As I did with the page on the first season, I've changed the genre from "Cyberpunk" to "Postcyberpunk" as it seems more appropriate. Postcyberpunk even references Ghost in the Shell as an example. Norfenstein 21:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I’ll stand by it but you must keep in mind that ghost in the shell (the comic) came out in the 80s in the heyday of ‘classic’ cyberpunk. The cyberpunk article also list G.I.T.S. use it as an example. So maybe post/cyberpunk is a better term? or just cyber?

Anyway post cyberpunk is more of a marketing term, Most post cyberpunk works grow naturally out cyberpunk rather that a movement. To say that it’s a GITS: stand alone complex is post cyber punk de-fatco just because it is more up to date is like looking at the new star war films and saying that they are ‘post Space opera”Joeyjojo 02:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genre

I saw GITS 1st GIG as a dub but I aw the second one as sub. There's so much going on, it's tough to keep up with things. I've seen it mentioned before that the Japanese approach to storytelling includes a disregard for the importance of every viewer "getting it." They're willing to leave a lot of unanswered questions, unexplained situations, and offloading a lot of work onto the viewer. Personally, I think that sometimes this is a genuine sign of depth but other times it's just a cop-out. Anyway, the point of what I'm getting at here, it'd really be nice to get an explanation of exactly what was supposed to have happened here and some possible theories on the strange stuff depicted.

A couple quesitons:

1. Why was Ghouda so forthcoming to Motoko when she dove into his brain? Would unveiling his plan make it's accomplishment easier? 2. Exactly how is the Particularist virus supposed to work? Is it a simple brain hijack? Is it being more subtle, using psychological principles to infuse the cyberbrain with an obsessive-compulsive disorder, sort of the way drugs can make people suicidal? How does it reproram people? 3. The end of the show was identical to the setup of the original manga. Was this homage or trying to set everything up as a prequel? 4. I've yet to find a decent explanation of how the "ghost" works in GITS. As I've been able to infer, a "ghost" is analagous to a soul, what makes a human being unique from a robot or AI. There is talk of ghost-lines and ghost-hacking and that would involve reaching beyond the cyberbrain interface to mess around with the real person. So, is a cyberbrain a real living human brain encased in a life support mechanism for mounting in a cyberbody? Is it an artificial construct into which a consciousness has been transferred? Are consciousnesses supposed to be transferrable? If human ghosts can be transferred from one device to another, is it possible to only copy them instead? There was mention of ghost-dubbers but no real story on how they worked or what the nature of the dubbed personalities would be like. If the dubbings were inferior to the original, that implies that a consiousness really is transferred and the copying is not like dubbing hard drives but more like pumping fluids from one tank to another. 5. Ghosts are supposed to be capable of existing free-floating within the net? Have they provided any explanation for this?

This isn't really the best place to be asking questions about the plot of GITS. The discussion page is mainly for discussing changes that can be made to the article. You might want try any variety of GITS fansites, or ask your question on rec.arts.anime.misc (a Usenet newsgroup). -- 23:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article 9 in 2nd GIG History section

The current article says:

Due to a battered economy and weak political position, the American Empire entered a security pact with Japan. The pact prohibits both Japan from deploying its army overseas (Constitution Article 9) and possessing nuclear weapons.

I know that a recent episode has said something about the American Empire allying itself with Japan, but I'm not sure about those prohibitions of the Japanese military being linked to the future American Empire. Too bad I don't have the episode on tape.

Present-day Japan has an article 9 in its constitution that prohibits it from taking offensive military actions against another country. Even the nation's recent participation in UN peacekeeping missions was very controversial. That anti-belligerence clause has existed since just after World War II. That's why Japan's military is called the Japan Self-Defense Forces or JSDF, both in GITS:SAC and in real life.

Could someone please check this? Thanks. --Tachikoma 20:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Little Fact

Did you know that the opening theme was sung in 3 differnt languages: English, Japanese and Russian. I don't why though...

Because the singer, Origa, is a native Russian, and the anime is Japanese. There's English because it's exotic. --Sinbios

[edit] Acroynm?

I've looked everywhere and I just can't find what "GiG" stands for, assuming it even stands for something. It kinda annoys me, especially since it's capitalized in a few different ways. You can imagine it's a hard thing to Google for. --FletcherD 05:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's just Gig, from Wikitonary: Any temporary job. -- Ned Scott 09:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge -to- SAC article

Ned Scott proposes to merge this page with the Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex page.

Vote at Talk:Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex

Talk:Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex#Proposed merge: from 2nd GIG

Again, not a vote. -- Ned Scott 06:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Ned Scott has withdwan his proposal for merging this article into the SAC article.

[edit] Should I add/remove this to the trivia?

In the 26th episode, (Aka spoilers, haha) there was symbolism with the iron rod being a Cruxifix, and Motoko and Kuze being underground with the apples, Motoko offering Kuze a bite of the apple is definatly symbolism towards the garden of eden.

And there was that whole white crow thing, but that's symbolism that probalby isn't related to religion.

Also, mistakes in the show or like, logical mistakes or whatever, shoudl they be included in Trivia? Stuff like, "If bouma blahblha "

I must disagree with putting any of that stuff up. Unless you can substantiate it with actual evidence (the producers or directors or the website says this actually occurred) then it should NOT be put up. You can't be certain unless some official source says it's true. Otherwise, it's just speculation. --Miss Ethereal 14:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the disagreement. Some of the trivia makes no sense if one thinks about it, particularly the trivia item that suggests that Motoko's outfit resembles that of Izumi Curtis in Full Metal Alchemist: since the two anime are produced by two separate companies, it wouldn't make sense for them to riff off one another. Usually in-referencing refers to other anime that are produced inhouse.

[edit] Mexican War

The history section states: "Saito was a part of one of these armies before joining Section 9" (talking about guerrila wars in South America). This historical "fact" presumably comes from the episode where Saito is playing poker with the rookies. However, we never find out for sure whether his tale is a bluff or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.135.41.90 (talk • contribs) .

Agreed, that information is never made clear if it is "fact or fiction", and done so on purpose. I'll take it out if it hasn't already been done so. -- Ned Scott 06:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It's fact. One of the tachikomas said that at the end of the episode. Anyway, what would be the point of having an entirely fictional episode? This isn't Dallas.

There is no way for the tachikoma to know if this was fact, and in any case they were merely confirming that he was not bluffing about the card hand. As for why have a fictional episode? Who knows...there quite a number of meaningless episodes. And false, implanted memories is one of the themes of the series.

There's no way for you to know if they were "merely" confirming he wasn't bluffing about the cards. Anyway, it makes a lot of sense for the story to be true. What would be the point of making up a story to tell during a card game? It makes no sense if Saito just made up the story.