Talk:Dirty War
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[edit] Move
Shouldn't we move this into Proceso de Reorganización Nacional??? Is almost the same thing and both are inextricably related.
If nobody comments, I'll merge them together and then move in 2-3 days...
--Sebastian Kessel Talk 22:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about it. The Proceso didn't consist of just the Dirty War, and I think some would argue that the Dirty War started before (while Isabel Perón was still nominally in charge and Rasput... I mean López Rega was involved with the AAA and so on). I think each article should be trimmed to avoid too much overlap with the other. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:12, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
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- But the way the article is worded leads you to believe that. How about making the original parts of this a big nice paragraph on "Proceso"? --Sebastian Kessel Talk 02:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Why not just merge Proceso de Reorganización Nacional and Dirty War to form a new article, like History of Argentina (1976-1983)? Alr 22:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Not a bad idea, though I somehow fear the article will be almost exclusively about the Proceso. Besides, that and the Dirty War article are more or less "settled", linked from all over, etc. History of Argentina already links to them and to the Falklands War, I suppose. The conflict with Chile mediated by the Pope might also deserve a short article.
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- I'm thinking there might be some that consider that equalling (or implicitly equalling, with a redirect) "Dirty War" and "Proceso de Reorganización Nacional" is POV. The military might have done something good (though I'm hard pressed to find examples). Please, bear with me the next few days and I'll try to get drafts of the two articles, trimmed as I proposed; if you guys don't like them, then go ahead with the merge. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
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- I think we are missing a BIG point here. Proceso de Reorganización Nacional was not only the title of the official military goverment, but also the excuse for the coup (To reorganize the crumbling nation). In this article, things such as the economical decitions and corruption should be present. On the other hand Dirty War reffers to the not-admited persecution and repression of civilians, by the military, under command of the governing body. If the information of both articles overlaps, then moving certain things to the other might be reviewed, but under no circunstances should they be merged in one single article. Mariano(t/c) 07:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- I would leave the two articles as separate, linked items, as the "Military Process" that began in 1976 was just one phase of Argentina's broader civil conflict that included the military repression in Tucuman in 1975 and AAA operations from 1973 onwards. It is also important to relate the Dirty War to armed operations of anti-military guerrillas between 1969 and 1979. --Elgodosimp 14 January 2006
- The term Dirty War has a special connotation and importance since it deal with the abuses of power during milatary rule, and even though it corresponds to the time of "Proceso.." it should be handed separatedly.
- "Dirty War" is a very common term, as "years of lead" (used in Italy, in France, in Morroco, etc.) Proceso de Reorganización Nacional, on the other hand, is really "technical". And there is no reason for Wikipedia to endorse technical terms, which may also be - as in this specific case - propaganda terms. This is no "process of national reorganization", or as much as the "Third Reich" was supposed to last 1 000 years. Neither terms are really appropriate; maybe it should be moved to "Dirty War (Argentina)", which would be specific and would not obey to Jorge Rafael Videla's evil language. Tazmaniacs
- You are still mixing 2 different things: the military government, and the military repression. Even though one can be included in the other, they are not the same thing. For instance, the Proceso de Reorganización Militar brough a high economical debt to Argentina, while you can't say the same about the Dirty war. Mariano(t/c) 09:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I agree with your comment. However, I'm sure some additional statements about Operation Condor, Guatemala, maybe Colombia's violencia, Uruguay and Paraguay dictatorships, and so on, could be included in the description of Dirty War. It is my understanding that this term refers to a period of Central & South American state terrorism characterized by anticommunism, starting from the late 1960s (Brazil) and continuing on until the end of the Sandinista government. Just as the Years of Lead, which was made to refer only to Morocco's year of leads, whilst the expression is used in Italy, in Turkey i think, and is common in French to design the European period characterized by left and right-wing terrorism (Italy, but also Germany and France), "Dirty War" is really a generic term which is not specific to Argentina. Tazmaniacs
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I wouldn't merge them. "Dirty War" is a phenomenon that encompasses more territory than Argentina.-vap12
[edit] Merge
I believe the reasons for not merging are clear by now:
- there has been more than one dirty war (in fact, in w:es Guerra sucia is a disambiguation page);
- even in Argentina, the dirty war predated the beginning of the Proceso;
- even during the Proceso, government's actions did not consist solely in the dirty war.
I thus propose removing the merge tag. Taragüí @ 11:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
- So do I - OC wa not Argentina-only- removing now.24.127.115.13 07:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] New article?
The bulk of the article should definitely be transferred into a new "Dirty War(Argentina)" section. --—This unsigned comment was added by Valenciano (talk • contribs) 18:21, 27 February 2006.
[edit] Category:Dirty War and disambiguation
- Content brought from talk page of WP:ARNB. Please continue discussion here, not there.
Given the date, I started to work on this complex topic and was lost in categories. Every article on the Dirty War, the Proceso and their participants has a bunch of these, which I think should point to one Category:Dirty War and sister categories/subcategories. I believe we should draw a nice category tree where we can make our Videlas, Galtieris and Astizes fit without so much wordiness. Also, the general categories of Category:Criminals don't include many suitable subcats. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I like the idea of a category. Probably Category:Dirty War will be good enough for the time being. No need for Category:Dirty War victims or Category:Dirty War criminals (at least not yet). Mariano(t/c) 14:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Past discussion in Talk:Dirty War and a recent comment mention that "dirty war" is a common term in other places and that "our" article should be called Dirty War (Argentina). Now I'm all for preemptive disambiguation, but I haven't seen anything about the Dirty Wars of other LA countries. Is it presumptuous to guess that most people who look for "Dirty War" are in fact looking for the Argentine one? I'm bringing this up because the objection has been made and, if we have to move all links from one title to the other (tiring!), I don't want to have to do the same with the category too. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Since nobody has said anything else, I've gone and moved this to the new Category:Dirty War. Please help recategorize the rest of the articles belonging there. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Holiday Marking the Coup
Might be worth mentioning the recent creation of a holiday marking March 24, 1976 coup by the current Argentine congress, and the huge march that happened on that day March 24, 2006. Also the current efforts by Kirchner to challenge the 1990 pardon for former junta leaders.
- The new holiday has been mentioned, but there's still some pretty delicate work to do regarding Kirchner's stance on the Dirty War, more than devoting just one paragraph to it. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
