Diskussion:Auraka

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Ich habe diesen Artikel behoben. Man sollte nicht Webquellen für polynesisches Material verwenden. Sie sind häufig falsch. Siehe en:Encyclopedia Mythica (auf Englisch). Kahuroa 22:31, 15. Jul 2006 (CEST)

Die für den Artikel in der Encyclopedia Mythica angegebene Quelle ist ein Buch: Pacific Mythology. Knappert, Jan. HarperCollins, London: 1992 ISBN 1855381338. Dieses scheint unzuverlässig zu sein, denn es war auch im Falle der alten Version "Nana-Ula" des Artikels Nanaulu (über en:Nana-Ula und Artikel in der Encyclopedia Mythica) wohl die Primärquelle. --ThT 12:27, 19. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Hm ist dieser Artikel noch glaubwürdig?! Da wird behauptet es ist kein Gott sondern eine Höhle und die Versionen aller vorhergehenden Autoren sollen falsch sein. Vielleicht steht ja was brauchbares im reiseführer oder eine zweite unabhängige Person kann diesen Inhaltswandel bestätigen?--inschanör 11:18, 15. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Hmm. I did research and provided a reference which can be verified, and I understand Polynesian languages. The previous version was nothing but a straight copy of Encyclopedia Mythica's article, which is based on a careless misreading of Gill. For one thing, in Polynesian languages, auraka does not mean 'all-devouring' (as the E.M. article states) but is rather a prohibitive particle, presumably serving in this case as a warning not to go near the cave. I would have no reason to alter the article without justification, and if Auraka really was a god then I would not have any problem with that. I have verified and expanded a lot of similar articles on the English Wiki: see en:Kupe, en:Rangi and Papa, and many many other Polynesian mythology articles Kahuroa 07:02, 16. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Tja: Schwieriges Gebiet... Kahuroa's Skepsis gegenüber der „Enzyklopedia Mythica“ teile ich voll und ganz. Der dort zu findende Kurzeintrag über eine Gottheit namens „Auraka“ ist wenig erhellend, da keiner spezifischen Region Polynesiens zugeordnet. Auch in genereller polynesischer Mythologie habe ich sie nicht gefunden. (Was nicht bedeutet, dass es sie nicht doch irgendwo gibt, dieses Feld ist äußerst komplex) Allerdings finde in zeitgenössischen Berichten über die Insel Mangaia auch keine Bestattungshöhle namens „Auraka“. Die wohl bekannteste derartige Bestattungshöhle nennt sich „Te Rua Rere“. Sie wurde in den frühen 1930er Jahren wiederentdeckt und ist heute offensichtlich Ziel diverser amerikanischer und Japanischer Forschungsgruppen. Sparachlich scheint mir der Begriff „Auraka“ in der en.WP sauber dargestellt:

• 'Auraka : interdiction, don't
• 'Auraka rava koe e 'āmiri i teia niuniu ora, ka 'uti'uti 'ia koe : Don't on any account touch this live wire, you'll get shocked

Diesbezüglich habe ich vollstes Vertrauen in Kahuroa's Expertise! Wenn er sagt, dass eine Gottheit namens „Auraka“ alleine schon aus sprachlichen Gründen unwahrscheinlich ist, nehme ich diesen Fakt als gegeben. Der Begriff scheint mir bezüglich der Höhle eher im Sinne eines Tabus gebraucht worden zu sein. Dass im Rahmen des alten polynesischen Glaubens der Höhle eine Gottheit zugeordnet war ist andererseits durchaus möglich, wenn nicht gar wahrscheinlich. Deren tatsächlicher Name scheint allerdings nicht bekannt zu sein. --Phoenix-R 14:46, 17. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Auraka ist ein sehr altes Wort in Neuseeland-Māori: das Wörterbuch des Williams steht:

Auraka. ad. Not, imperative or precative. E kui ma nei, auraka au e hakua. (my trans 'Oh grandmothers, do not nag at me.) Kahuroa 20:44, 17. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Ja ich glaube es ;-) Yeah I buy it ;-) Falls die Annahme Auraka = ein Gott verbreitet ist sollte man diese Annahme als verbreitete Unwahrheit im artikel nennen, das hebt dann auch die Glaubwürdigkeit. If the false assumption auraka = deity is widespread, this assumption should be named as false assumption in the article. This will help to make the article more trustworthy. --inschanör 22:25, 17. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

I don't think it is widespread, although there is the risk that someone will reintroduce the Auraka=ein Gott from Encyclopedia Mythica. Your suggestion is a good one. What I would say (if my German were better) would be something like:

In a few sources, including Encyclopedia Mythica, Auraka is described as a Polynesian god of death. This appears to be a false assumption deriving from a misreading of Gill (1876), an early source for the mythology of Mangaia. Like some English writers of the Victorian period, Gill uses a florid writing style which is easy to misinterpret.

OK, a German translation will be add. --inschanör 08:14, 18. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

In fact I might add that to the English article as a footnote. Kahuroa 06:08, 18. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Now it would be good to know a bit more about this W.W.Gill (no WP entry, not explored all www.google.com links for a query "W.W. Gill). And given the chance I am able read the mentioned chapter by myself it would make it perfect. Any chance to get a copy of it in Germany? A scanned version (google-books?) would be sufficient. (Dt.: jetzt müssen wir mehr über W.W. Gill wissen, in der WP finde ich nichts, google hat zuviele falsche Links als das ich sie schon alle durcgsuchen konnte. Wenn ich den Abschnitt selber lesen könnte wäre es perfect. Wie komme ich an sowas (gescannte Fassung (google-books?) würde reichen)) in Deutschland?--inschanör 08:14, 18. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Here is a biography of William Wyatt Gill: Australian Dictionary of Biography, WWGill

As for the book, I myself have a reprinted facsimile version by Kessinger reprints, 2004. See URL:Kessinger Gill

Also on Amazon Amazon

I found it on Google Books, search for Auraka - it isn't a full view version but you can perhaps view some pages - I was able to see the following by searching within the book for Auraka:

On page 159, it talks about 'those buried in that grand repository of the dead, Auraka' and its 'gloomy, winding subterranean passages'

On page 202, there is a footnote which mentions the 'entrance to the gloomy cave Auraka'.

On page 243, you will see the origin of the En Mythica's 'all-devouring'. It is a song, one line of which is O 'Rākā maumau ē! where Rākā is an abbreviation for Auraka. Gill translates that as From all-devouring Auraka but the literal translation (mine) of maumau ē is 'wasteful' - used poetically here in the sense of greedily taking in the dead. Maumau is a common word in New Zealand Māori - maumau kai - to waste food, he maumau taima - a waste of time.

Perhaps you could interloan it through a library in Germany, or a university library might have it? I don't know how to search German libraries.

Kahuroa 11:24, 18. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

I found an library specialised in this field just nearby: Museum für Völkerkunde Dresden. I asked if they have a copy. I will add the info mentioned above during the weekend. So long amd thanks for your support. --84.179.95.4 07:54, 19. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Und ich habe Euch gesagt, dass es sich hier vermutlich nicht um den Namen einer Örtlichkeit sondern um ein darüber ausgesprochenes Tabu (!) handelt. "Unberührbar"... "Da dürft ihr nicht hingehen"... ohne die hierfür zugelassenen Reinigungszeremonien absolviert zu haben. etc. etc. Passt sprachlich und folgt dem Sinn alter polynesischer Kultur. Gruß --Phoenix-R 04:06, 20. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

PS @Kahuroa: "Tabu" is the german (!) meaning of "tapu". Has nothing to do with "fidschi"... It was not right to replace this therm generally the way you did in the polynesian article . ...--Phoenix-R 04:32, 20. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Tut mir Leid. I reversed the changes - please check to see if I did it right or if some should have stayed as they were. Gruß. Kahuroa 05:31, 20. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Well, must it be corrected here? It's now written in the way of explaining Auraka as the name of a cave. (like White House). According to Phoenix-R Auraka is a name for an "curse/warning/spell (tabu)" which is attached to a location (like "do not enter the space/air - "White House forbidden zone" "). Does it mean that there are more or there could be more than one "Auraka"? And it don't have to be a cave? And it is not necassary connected with deceased people?? Just a "stay out without the proper permission" ?? --inschanör 15:42, 28. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

My reading of Gill is that it is indeed the name of a specific burial cave. I think you may be misreading what Phoenix said; he was taking about the possible grammatical meaning of the name of that specific cave which MAY have derived from a prohibition. An entry along the lines you suggest would belong in a dictionary of the Mangaian dialect of Cook Islands Māori or of the Tahitic subbranch of Eastern Polynesian. Also, I am not sure if it is clear, but Phoenix was talking about another article in his comment above starting with PS @Kahuroa: "Tabu" is the german (!) meaning of "tapu"., he was not talking about Auraka at all there Kahuroa 22:03, 28. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

thanks for your patience, the "story line" here is scattered around and we switching between mother languages. So I will not touch the article now. I tracked down a copy of Gill in the town I live. I hope I will find some time to visit the archive. So long and wish you a pleasant sunday.--inschanör 22:43, 28. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

Sorry, my mistake: My remarke to Kahuroa concerning "Tabu" was indeed speaking about another article... I should not have mixed it into this discussion. Well, back to "Auraka": I don't know Gill, so I can't judge about his writing. Thing is, that I could not find any trace about a cave named "auraka" in our days. The name of the burial cave on Mangaia was "Te Rua Rere". My guess is, that someone in elder days misunderstood the word "Auraka" (interdiction, don't) as beeing the name of the cave. Such places were generally "tapu" in polynesien history. To go there was not allowed to everyone and submitted to certain rules. For everybody else the cave was "auraka". Regards --Phoenix-R 22:54, 28. Okt. 2006 (CEST)

[Bearbeiten] A better, verifiable source found!

Am I good or what! A quick google search and I found this pdf. It mentions many burial caves on Mangaia, and refers to Auraka as a region in the Keia district of that island.

Mortuary Patterns in Burial Caves on Mangaia, Cook Islands

• See page 136: "The upper entrance to Kauvava, which is in the Auraka region of Keia district, serves as a drainage sump, receiving heavy water and sediment flows during rains, draining eventually to the sea. Although Gill (1876:71–79) noted a cave in Keia named Auraka, with one of its two entrances named Kauvava, his description of the physical features of this cave does not match that of the cave currently known as Kauvava. In addition, Gill’s observations that ‘Hundreds of well-preserved mummies lie in this natural home of the dead; some in rows on ledges of stalactite, others on wooden platforms. Most of them were over fifty years old, though some were more recent.’ (1876:72) do not match the distribution of remains in the current Kauvava, as described below."

• This makes the situation more complex, and accordingly I have rewritten en:Auraka. Kahuroa 06:54, 30. Okt. 2006 (CET)

Since the first version based on a internet research turned out to be wrong, I as an absolute beginner on the field of Polynesia misstrust any google search. So we depend on an expert who declares a source etc reliable (or not).

The new english version will be transleted in German soon. --inschanör 07:16, 30. Okt. 2006 (CET)

Any suggestions about what the Categories for this article should be now? Is "Gottheit" still relevant here?