Talk:ܦܬܐ ܪܫܝܐ

Thanks Tawde, your comments were very helpful. I myself write in the Assyrian Neo-Aramaic (an Eastern) dialect, which differs significantly from Western and especially Biblical Aramaic.

• I'm to blame for the flubbing of "ܝܨܪܥܠ". I actually realized it a few days ago but forgot to change it. "ܨ" is indeed supposed to be in place of "ܣ", but I'm not sure about the ܥ/ܐ. I know that it's definately not `ayin, but I'm not sure if aleph is supposed to be in its place. I only know the basic Hebrew alphabet and not sure if aleph is a glottal stop in the Hebrew alphabet as well or just a vowel placeholder. If there is a glottal stop, then it should be ܝܣܪܐܠ, otherwise just ܝܣܪܠ. Luckily, there is no article on it.
• "ܝܠܗܿ / ܝܼܠܵܐ" means "is" in modern Eastern Aramaic, and yes it's because of gender that the spellings are different. How do you say/spell "is" in Western or Biblical Aramaic?
• The article on Alqosh was one of the first to be written on this wiki. Here's the thing: vowel marks (the specific ones I use, anyway) are only in the madnkhaya version of the Syriac alphabet. Not everyone who has Syriac font downloaded sees the same madnkhaya font. For example, if I use Internet Explorer, I see madnkhaya. If I use Firefox, I see serto. If I go to another computer, I see estrangela. Basically, it depends on the settings on the particular browser/computer. What I've been struggling with for some time now is whether or not to just stop using vowel marks and write as if I was writing estrangela. That way, anyone can read it no matter the font setting.

I personally am not an expert nor claim to be, but you're right in that we need one. --3345345335534 03:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

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• About the spelling of "Israel", א or ܐ is indeed a glottal stop... The square alphabet is the same as the Syriac in all but several consonantal variations.

Now I ask you (all) a question since I don't know the answer - Where does your dialect stand in relevance to the Edessa Peshitta dialect? Because if you compare, ܘܝܘܣܦ ܩܡ ܕܒܪ ܠܛܠܝܐ ܘܠܐܡܗ ܘܐܬܐ ܠܐܪܥܐ ܕܐܝܣܪܐܠ Matthew 2:21
This is a text from the Onkelos targum, written in Middle Western Aramaic in the square alphabet. Syriac transliteration is brought as well:

Of course ܫ has a s sound since it is a left ש.
Anyway, words which are not forign (ie. found in historical texts of the Aramaic speaking people) should be spelled in a consistent manner. 3345345335534, do you have a dictionary to your specific dialect?

• ܝܠܗܿ / ܝܼܠܵܐ actually sounds a bit like il est in French. In other Semitic languages you just use the third pronoun "he" if needed, and mostly it isn't. الكتاب كبير הספר גדול ܒܬܒܐ ܣܓܝ = the book is big. I also noticed you use ܚܐ as the indefinite article, this also in nonexistant in other semitic languages, but is found in French, English, etc.
  

Of course, if this is part of the dialect it is ought to be used here - as I said I was only a bit surprised.88.153.205.93 15:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

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Going through some other articles I would like to remark about the following:

• ܓܪܝܟܝܐ = means Greek? In both Arabic and Hebrew the word for Greece is of the root yod + waw + nun... It again surprises me to see a western word instead of a traditional one.
• Israel's neighbor also suffers a spelling disagreement :-) Aramaic's sisters would spell ܦܠܣܛܝܢ with a ܛ as the name of Palestine and not ܦܠܣܬܝܢ as it appears.
• The word ܐܬܪܐ appears in the context of country. It means place in other Aramaics, are you sure this is the correct word for Syriac? (in Western and also in the Peshitta ܐܪܥܐ would be used).
  

88.153.205.93 17:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

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• I don't think ܫ is ever used to represent s in Syriac writing. In Biblical Aramaic maybe; definately not in modern writing.

I have no idea how close my specific dialect is to the dialect spoken in Edessa. I have an Arabic-Assyrian dictionary that's close to (if not exactly) my dialect. This dictionary does not have names of historical places, countries, etc., so I can't confirm the spellings of any places.

• The spelling of ܝܠܗܿ / ܝܼܠܵܐ may be wrong and/or are used in the wrong places in this wiki, but I can confirm without a doubt that those words are present in (at least) my dialect. However, you're right in questioning ܚܐ as I'm not sure if it's right or even exists, though I think I've heard it spoken before. My grasp of the language is decent, not perfect, and I'm constantly finding and correcting past mistakes.
• Both ܝܘܢܢܝܐ and ܓܪܝܟܝܐ are acceptable, at least in my dialect (although now it seems I've spelled ܓܪܝܟܝܐ wrong. It should be ܓܪܝܓܝܐ). The unorthodox spelling may be an English loanword from a few decades ago when the British held the mandate of Iraq. I'll change it to ܝܘܢܢܝܐ although I still think ܓܪܝܓܝܐ should be mentioned in the article.
• ܦܠܣܬܝܢ should in fact be ܦܠܣܛܝܢ. My bad (again).
• I can also confirm that ܐܬܪܐ means "country" and my Arabic-Assyrian dictionary can back that up (بلد - ܐܬܪܐ). Strangely, it also gives ܡܬܐ (village/town) as another definition. ܐܪܥܐ, to my understanding, means "land". --3345345335534 19:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

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• Firstly about ܐܬܪܐ... Well, بلد means a city and not a country ;-) Its plural بلاد (kasra on the ب) means a country.
• I understand that even inside the Syriac brach, the dialects are barely interchangeable? If so, this Wikipedia will never work unless:
  

Option 1: Each article (or section) will state the exact dialect in which it is written.
Option 2: All articles will follow a standardization to one dialect. Can you imagine what would Arabic Wikipedia be if everybody wrote in their own dialect :-) most are barely writable - this is why اللغة الفصحى (the literature language) is used.

• Now, who exactly is in charge? The main page is quite over-packed with "This subdomain is reserved..." messages. Also pages in other languages show the link here as ܕܥܒܪܸܝܛ - which should probably be ܕܥܒܪܐܝܬ. In the Peshitta this means "In the language of the Jews" which at the time was Aramaic of course, but yet this is not the name of the language. Do your family call it this way? Where do they come from? Again, we need some kind of standardization.88.153.205.93 20:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

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• Okay...now I'm just confused. The Arabic interwiki links for city and country say city is مدينة and country is بلد (while بلاد is just a redirect to بلد).

The English-Arabic dictionary I have supports this, and my Arabic-Assyrian dictionary translates مدينة into ܡܕܝܬܐ (city). Now I don't speak Arabic, so I just don't know.

• If you write in the basic consonantal alphabet (no vowels), I think most dialects of Syriac are intelligible to native speakers. Now, apparently when this wiki was created they decided that it would be for Assyrian Neo-Aramaic. This list verifies that. However, is there an Aramaic language that is understood by all speakers? If there is, then I'm all for writing in that language.
• No one is "in charge". There really isn't enough content yet to fill the main page with meaningful messages. We haven't even translated the interface yet. I'm aware the links say ܕܥܒܪܸܝܛ, I've been trying to change that for months now. Someone set up the link to say d`ivrit when the wiki was created apparently. My family calls it ܣܘܪܬ (again, Assyrian Neo-Aramaic on the list of Wikipedias) and their ancestors come from Hakkari (southeastern Turkey). The main page for Wikipedia, however, says ܐܪܡܝܐ. So we have one wiki with three names. --3345345335534 17:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

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• Ok, balad is a city (or a village) and bilad are cities (this can explain the redirection) or country. madina also means a city (in Arabic and Western Aramaic (מדיתא)) (but means a country in Hebrew :-D ).

While بلد might be used in some literature or poetry in the meaning of a country, this is by far not exceptable in Arabic media today. Please trust me on Arabic and Hebrew issues, I'm from the now famous city of Haifa :-)

• Well, most Aramaic speakers are Christians of the Church of the East, so I reckon they all should theoretically understand Peshitta Aramaic, can you understand it (you can find it in peshitta.org)? Maybe this should be voted on or surveyed.
• It's a problem having no one in charge, especially with the d'ivrit problem (which is quite embarrassing). Is there a "Wikipedia Headquarters" we can write to?ܐܚܐ ܕܛܠܝܬܐ 20:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

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First, I'm glad to see that you made an account and I don't have to call you 88.15x.xxx.xx or "Tawde" (I didn't get it until later. I would've spelled it tawdee :P. tawdee in Eastern Aramaic is basima/basimta). I see now that بلد = colloquial Arabic, دولة = formal Arabic? Anyway, if ܐܪܥܐ means "country" in Western Aramaic, how do you say "land"?

• Actually, Peshitta Aramaic for a native speaker of Modern Aramaic is extremely hard to understand (and totally incomprehensible to a speaker like me). Sitting in church, nobody understands what the priest is saying. Like I said, maybe written Peshitta Aramaic (without vowels) might make a difference.
• Why do you need someone in charge? If it's to change the d`ivrit thing, admins can't change it. Only those waaaaaaay up there can change it. I think a mailing list (Wikitech-l?) would work, although I look at that page and I become completely confused... --3345345335534 21:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

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I think I just solved the ܐܬܪܐ dispute: go to this site, click on Level Four, go to Lesson 104, and scroll right down to the bottom. Turns out we were both right. --3345345335534 22:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

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• balad is a word used in both formal and 'spoken' Arabic, always for city or town. Dawla in formal Arabic (and Dola in Palestinian spoken Arabic) is always a country, a synonym for bilad. As far as I know, in Middle Western Aramaic, land=country=ארעא(ܐܪܥܐ), like in modern Hebrew where land=country=ארץ(ܐܪܨ) :-)
  
• Ok, I read more about Assyrian people and understood they use quite a uniform language with only two main dialects who are written nearly identically. This is the Assyrian Aramaic that unfortunately I know very little, but can help with quality control until I get a better grasp of the language (What do you think of the website you brought, does it teach well, or at least the correct language?).
  

So this should be the language of the Assyrian Wikipedia. But... If you look at Assyrian Neo-Aramaic you see it's ISO 639-2 code as syr while Western Neo-Aramaic has the arc code of this domain. The thing is, Modern Western Aramaic is spoken by such a small number of people in such a remote place, I doubt any of them has ever even heard of Wikipedia at all (No kidding, I know people in far less remote places in Australia who never heard of it).
For consistancy reasons, this whole subdomain should be moved to syr.wikipedia.org (so those waaaaaaay up there should be notified). ܐܚܐ ܕܛܠܝܬܐ 18:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

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The "two dialects": are you talking about Assyrian and Chaldean Neo-Aramaic? That website is okay for learning Syriac writing, but I don't think you could learn a language effectively from it. The webmaster tends to make things overly difficult by using complex words and linguistic speech (which helps if you're a linguist) and I've found that there are an insane amount of rules and exceptions for that particular dialect/writing. Although it uses Eastern Aramaic, some words I know, some are a little different, some I've never heard, and some are completely different from what I would think they are. I can't tell you if it's the correct language because I just don't know. It depends on where the webmaster learned it.

I'm not entirely sure if we should rely on the ISO 639-2 codes for language distinction. The code for Syriac (classical) is also syr, yet classical Syriac is just as incomprehensible to speakers of Neo-Aramaic as ancient Aramaic. --3345345335534 03:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

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According to peshitta.org, the actual spelling of Israel is ܐܝܣܪܐܝܠ. I'll change the current spelling accordingly. --3345345335534 04:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)