Talk:Yankees-Red Sox rivalry

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The article Yankees Suck was nominated for deletion. The debate was closed on November 3 with a consensus to merge the content into Yankees-Red Sox rivalry. If the merger is not completed promptly, Yankees Suck might be re-nominated for deletion. To discuss the merger, please use this talk page.

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Archives
August 2005 – June 2006

Contents 1 acccounts from an overzealous yankee fan 2 Cabrera's catch in early June - not notable 3 Go for Good Article? 4 Doubleheader - longest game 5 Relevant? 6 DiMaggio and Williams Feats 7 Merge

[edit] acccounts from an overzealous yankee fan

An entire section has been voted to Fan involvement, which claims (among other things) that "Red Sox fans, known as Red Sox Nation, tend to have a more intense dislike of the Yankees than Yankees fans have for the Red Sox" and "It was not uncommon to hear the "Yankees Suck" chant at Fenway Park even when the Yankees were not in town."

Where is this coming from? Where are the references? What is the source of this information? This is original reseacrh in its most blatant form. This needs to go.--Pac 04:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Take your pick. Boston Magazine The Daily CollegianThe Harvard Crimson Kafziel 11:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

You should add these references to the article as footnotes. --Pac 17:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• I see they're all pre-2004 World Series articles. It seems that the rivalry is much more of a two-way street since the 3-0 comeback. I've heard the "Yankees Suck" chant at exactly one non-Yankee game this season, and that was when the Mets were in town. I'm going to change the tense in the paragraph in question to bring it up to date. Comments are welcome. - Pal 19:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the Yankee hating is still pretty strong for a lot of Red Sox fans, and it's still extremely lopsided (1 vs. 26) so I don't think Yankee fans feel like the situation is much different either, but I have no particular problem with any of the changes you made. It's not important enough a subject to me to sift through google for more recent articles, and I haven't seen anything lately that would make me think you're wrong. The links I cited were just to show that it wasn't original research. Your changes look okay to me. Kafziel 22:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Of these three proposed sources, none of them address the assertion that Red Sox fans hate the Yankees more than Yankees fans hate the Red Sox -- an assertion that I don't think can ever actually be verified. Until someone comes up with a source that confirms this statement, I think the first two sentences in the "Fan Involvement" section (up to the part about the "Yankees Suck" chant, which certainly is verifiable) should be deleted. Also, I'm not thoroughly versed in Wikipedia policies on reliable sources, but do the two opinion columns (one by a Red Sox fan and one by a Yankees fan) count as appropriate sources for this? I think they may be usable as primary sources regarding the opinion that Red Sox fans have a "fiery hatred" for the Yankees, but not that their hatred is any more fiery than Yankees fans' hatred for the Sox. Schi 20:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the word "hate" being used in the article anywhere. - RPIRED 22:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article uses the word "dislike", the proposed sources use the word "hatred" and "despise" (that is where the "fiery hatred" phrase comes from), and the discussion on this talk page uses the word "hate" or "hating" several times. But we don't need to use the word "hate" in either the article or discussion, we could use "dislike" for the same purposes. In terms of splitting hairs over diction, I don't see the word "dislike" in any of the proposed sources either. To rephrase for the purpose of clarity and specificity, I don't see any evidence that Red Sox fans have a more "intense dislike" for the Yankees than the Yankees' fans have for the Red Sox. Schi 23:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Do what you will. I'm tired of arguing it - I feel very strongly that mention of the fan dynamic as it exists (and it isn't equilibrium by any stretch of the imagination) is important in conveying to readers a very important part of the rivalry itself. There's got to be something somewhere on it. (POV alert) I'm further perplexed by the reaction of what appear to be Red Sox fans - as a Yankee fan I can only wish that my fellow fans were into it on the same level as Red Sox fans. POV for sure, but it's really a very enjoyable rivalry. - RPIRED 23:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to make my edits as NPOV as possible and that's what I'm concerned about in this article - making it live up to Wikipedia standards, particularly WP:VERIFY. I personally don't contest that Red Sox fans are more into the rivalry than Yankees fans, but I just haven't seen any sources that back that up yet. As it is, and including my own most recent edit, the section seems pretty rife with weasel words. Schi 20:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree wholeheartedly. I have viewed several Red Sox (and Celtics) games this season alone, and the "Yankees Suck" chant is hardly diminished from what I remember it in the past. The paragraph overall is pretty much spot on from what I can see - and I definitely can't comprehend changing it to the wording chosen. - RPIRED 06:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

If you're talking about Red Sox-Yankees games, then you're certainly right that the chant has not diminished. But if you're talking about non-Yankees game then you're completely wrong; the chant is almost non-existent. The way it's written now isn't accurate, and could be labelled POV. I have no problem with the changes you made to the first part, though it would be nice if you cited post-2004 sources. However, I'll attempt a re-write of the second part once again. - Pal 13:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Red Sox-Yankees games. The fact that I still hear it at Celtics games is the first clue, the fact that I heard it at the recent Tampa Bay-Boston series is further evidence (on TV no less), and I do hear it from time to time at Fenway Park on TV when the Yankees are not in town. I don't know how you're coming to your conclusion and I'm further scratching my head at why you think it was a problem as written - I'd think that kind of passion for a rivalry would be something to be proud of in Boston - but if you're adamant about it I'm more than willing to work through it. I just finished a touch-up that should be fair to all sides if you're that concerned about it. That segment doesn't work without conveying just how much more involved Red Sox fans are in the rivalry than Yankee fans are. That's a key element in the entire rivalry. - RPIRED 14:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I can agree with your last edit. As for my explanation, prior to 2004 you would hear the chant at almost every game. It was rare that you could watch a game without hearing the chant. Now that's certainly not the case. Sure you may hear it here and there, but it's not nearly as prevalent these days. That was the reason for the re-write. And I certainly don't find the chant to enhance the rivalry. It's unoriginal, boring, and makes it look like Sox fans have an inferiority complex. - Pal 14:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no way that Red Sox fans hate Yankees fans more than the vice versa. This is coming from a diehard Yankee fan, who sits with other diehard fans at over 50 games a year. That "fan involvement" paragraph needs to be edited, but apparently it's just going to be reversed if I try to. - Sportskido8 16:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cabrera's catch in early June - not notable

We've had more than one occassion of someone trying to add Melky Cabrera's catch which robbed Manny Ramirez of a home run at Yankee Stadium in June. While it was a nice catch that ultimately decided the ball game, we're pretty much all in agreement that it's not notable in the context of a significant "rivalry" moment. If there aren't any objections, I'm going to add a small note on this at the bottom of that section that will be visible to anyone who tries to add it - and we can leave it in there until the end of the season or so. - RPIRED 05:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Seeing no objection, and since it has been added again recently, I will add the note. Is there any argument that this moment was in any way notable? - RPIRED 19:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

No objection here. I agree with you completely. Kafziel 19:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Go for Good Article?

I doubt that we'll be able to shape this one around to being a featured article someday, but I think we could at least turn it into a good article. We're going to need to work on weasel words as noted by Schi and start sourcing, well, everything, and we're probably going to want to find a few more pictures, but does anyone else have any interest on breaking out the polish and working to make this article shine? - RPIRED 19:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The article is a pretty interesting read, but it is hampered by easily-fixed limitations, most notably the weasel words. aww 23:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doubleheader - longest game

Had two different (anonymous) users post last night's doubleheader, the second of which was the longest 9-inning game in MLB history? It might be significant enough to post but there was some dissent last night. I reverted it the second time so it could be discussed first. Anyone? - RPIRED 18:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Since it is the current record holder for the longest 9-inning game [1], we probably should mention it in the article. InTheFlesh? 19:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it is well-placed now in the context of the August 5-game series. aww 23:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relevant?

Is this really relevant to the scope of the article? This part is clearly attempting to show the supremacy of Boston by villifying New York. I don't even think it's notable with regards to the Yankees Red Sox rivalry. "Since before the start of the American Revolution, Boston and New York had shared a rivalry. When the Sons of Liberty stirred up the flames of revolution in Boston, Tories (loyalists) in New York argued that America should stay loyal to the crown. When Boston was liberated from the English the citizens of Boston celebrated wildly. When George Washington faced defeat in New York, the people there welcomed the British troops with open arms." Deputydog23 17:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I had similar thoughts when I first saw it, but it does establish a historical difference and rivalry between Boston and New York that assisted in the genesis of the rivalry between the two teams. Boston *was* a cauldron of Patriot fervor prior to and during the Revolution, and New York *was* a bastion of Loyalist sympathy. To me, it's a least a decent illustration of how the two cities have been largely diametrically opposed to each other for centuries. - RPIRED 20:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

As a Yankee fan in New York I had the same reaction as RPIRED - concern at first, but then the thought that it is actually a useful background to explain the uncommonly intense rivalry between the cities. aww 23:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DiMaggio and Williams Feats

I have twice reverted the inclusion of the 1941 feats of Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams. They had outstanding individual feats, but in the context of the rivalry, these are not worthy of inclusion unless DiMaggio ended his streak against the Red Sox or unless Williams did something against the Yankees that guaranteed his hitting .400. I also mention that I was referred to as a "moron" by the individual who insists on adding it. Despite WP:NPA, I am choosing to adhere to WP:NEWBIES in this case, however, I ask tht the individual not attack again. However I did want to put something on this talk page to see if there was anyone that felt that I was misguided in removing this reference as it was A) not a reference to a direct and significant Red Sox/Yankees event and B) not an event which signified a "milestone," like mentioning World Series results despite the two teams never being able to meet in the World Series. DiMaggio and Williams had great seasons, but that's what they were - great seasons. It's not notable in the context of the rivalry. - RPIRED 11:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I second that. Kafziel 11:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The players had a rivalry (DiMaggio and the whole 'Williams runs like a duck' jab), but it was like the Ruth/Cobb rivalry - they were the best players in the league. I actually thought the Bucker deletion would get more attention because of the 'Curse of the Bambino' phrase that was coined shortly after. Yankees76 13:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I did kinda hesitate on that one. Obviously it's a famous moment of Red Sox heartache and it did give real rise to the whole "Curse of the Bambino" talk. Ultimately I classified it as nn in the same way that the Red Sox 2004 World Series win was nn for mentioning in a Sox-Yanks rivalry sense. I had initially had that as part of the chronology, but someone, rightly, moved it to being a corollary of the ALCS Game 7 entry. The Yanks, if I recall correctly were horrible in 1986. :) Still, we have some mentions of other Yankee and Red Sox World Series, especially in the first part of the 20th century. There could be some validity to having the Buckner error in the chronology inasmuch as it brought "Curse of the Bambino" into the mainstream. - RPIRED 23:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The Yankees won 90 games in '86 (5.5 games back, 3rd best record in the AL).Yankees76 15:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I've completed the merge from Yankees Suck to Yankees-Red Sox Rivalry. Please review, and make sure it's up to standards. Thanks! Djdickmutt 19:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)