Talk:Volksdeutsche
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[edit] Meaning of Volksdeutsche
"Prior to World War II well above ten million ethnic Germans lived in Central and Eastern Europe (outside Germany, Austria and Switzerland)."
This seems to suggest that there are also Volksdeutsche living in Austria and Switzerland. Why do you exclude them from the count? Perhaps I am missing the difference between Volksdeutsche and Deutsche.--branko
- The difference is apparently between Volksduetsche and Reichsdeutsche. I will check if the article mentions it.
The opening paragarph perplexes me utterly. To break it down:
- Volksdeutsche is a term for ethnic Germans, living outside and east of Germany. This is in contrast to Reichsdeutsche (literally "Germans of the realm").
Okay, so Volksdeutsche are ethnic Germans living in Eastern Europe outside of Germany proper.
- Volksdeutsche only referrs to ethnic Germans from eastern European countries, which have been expelled and deported.
But they don't live in eastern European countries, because they've been expelled and deported. (One can parse it as the countries having been expelled, which makes even less sense.)
- Austria or Switzerland or other western countries were not a part of the German Reich in the 20th century and are not included. While they have German language speakers, they did not expell or deport ethnic Germans as the Soviet lead countries did.
So where are the Volksdeutsche? They're not in Germany by definition. They're not in the west, because they haven't been expelled and thus don't meet the definition. And they can't be in the east, because they've by definition been expelled!
I can only make sense out of this by assuming that the explusions from Eastern European countries occurred after a period of time in which the term Volksdeutsche was used for people who did live in Eastern Europe. Of course, this means that having been expelled can't be part of the definition... at least of that time. Are we supposed to refer to as Volksdeutsche only those who would be expelled? Kind of time-travelley. Or, is this opening paragraph just completely wrong? --Brion 10:52 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)
To Brion, Appr. 9 million Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans) plus 9 million Reichsdeutsche (German citizens were expelled/deported etc. see Heimatvertriebene of those at least 2 1/2 million did not survive. The others have been taken in as refuges in the remaining part of Germany and in many other countries. The expulsion occurred over several years 1944/45 to 1950, while the Soviet installed governments took control of eastern Europe including several German provinces. The ethnic Germans, who received refugee status in Germany, are now German citizens. There are Bundeslaender who are made up 1/4 of refugees and decendends. Millions of other expelled Germans and ethnic Germans are scattered in different countries. user:H.J.
- I'm well aware that a large number of ethnic Germans were expelled from eastern Europe. And maybe it's all Eisenhower's fault; I've never been a big Eisenhower fan anyway. My question, however, is: how do you define the word 'Volksdeutsche'? --Brion 11:20 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)
The definition or translation of Volksdeutsche = folks German, German folks, German people as compared to German citizens or Reichsdeutsche. user:H.J. ---
- Thank you. Is the article then wrong when it says, "Volksdeutsche only referrs to ethnic Germans from eastern European countries, which have been expelled and deported. Austria or Switzerland or other western countries were not a part of the German Reich in the 20th century and are not included."? --Brion 12:06 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)
Brion, I added a little more info. Please check , if that clarifies it for you. user:H.J.
Removed:
Volksdeutsche only refered to ethnic Germans from eastern European countries, which have been expelled and deported. All Germans or Ethnic Germans, which were expelled and received refugee status in western countries, became then known as Vertriebene or Heimatvertriebene. Austria or Switzerland or other western countries were not a part of the German Reich in the 20th century and are not included. While they have German language speakers, they did not expell or deport ethnic Germans as the Soviet lead countries did.
If the term preexisted the Nazis who then popularized it, it cannot be defined by something that happened after the Nazis lost power. Also removed line about Danzig - unless Danzigers were exempt from the Volks list or were not considered, it is irrelevant and the article doesn't say they were. --rmhermen
[edit] Ambiguity
Again a possible ambiguity: "treated by the German occupation as a person of Slavic lower class". This means that there are several Slavic classes, and that the occupator saw non-signers as a member of one of those classes. Could it be instead that the author meant that the Germans saw Slavs as people of a lower class than themselves? In that case the sentence should run something like "treated by the German occupation as a Slavic person (which the Germans considered to be of a lower class)".--branko
- Sounds good.
[edit] Signing volkslist
The result of refusing of signing volkslist very often was much worse than simply "being treating as Slavic person". People IIRC were forced to sign the lists. szopen
- If the Germans felt sure that you were Germanic (in their definition) and you refused to sign the list you could be shot as a traitor. Instead of simply being deported to central Poland as a Slav. Signing the Volklist also made you eligible to be drafted into the German army but at least your family wouldn't be deported. Rmhermen 15:28, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Why duplicated articles?
Okay, I'll bite. Why are Ethnic German and Volksdeutsche two seperate articles? It seems to me that the 'pedia is better served by merging the two articles, and mentioning the Reichsdeutsche/Volksdeutsche split of ethnic Germans in a header inside that article, rather than this duplication (triplication) of content. — Jor (Talk) 11:44, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
My gut-feeling is that the very word is too loaded with Third Reich deadweight, like the word Führer. I think it's wise to keep separate articles (i.e. that's my opinion today, who knows about tomorrow?). --Ruhrjung 22:39, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I tried to sort it all out; I hope it all works. Clossius 16:09, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[edit] No proofs? No serious links, sources?
- To this edit - what are the proofs, all of that people or the most of them did it?
- "Often the choice was either to sign and be regarded as a traitor by the Polish, or not to sign and be treated by the Nazi occupation as a traitor of the Germanic race." - it seems to be a very difficult choice - to sign or to must left his town. There were some 3 million PZPR-members in Poland till 1990 - were the most of them active communists or SB agents? Of course not! AN(Ger) 20:39, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Nazi Fifth Column Activities: A List of References", Library of Congress, 1943
- "The German fifth column in the Second World War", by L. de Jong
- "The German Fifth Column in Poland", Hutchinson & Co Ltd, London
--Emax 09:20, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- It does not mean, it were activities of the most of these poople. An example: A brother of my grandmother, born at the early 1900s in the German Empire (before 1918), member of the Armia Krajowa in Poznan, arrested and executed. There were more such cases in the into the IIIrd German Empire incorporated areas. In may seemed in the eastern Poland other. AN(Ger) 11:18, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- The problem is discussed on User_talk:AN(Ger) (in Polish) too. As i wrote in Polish - if 10 words explain something not good enough, it may be necessary to write 100 or 200 words - it is much better as to write something what is false. It could be better to write a exactly %-number of the Volksdeutsche, where were involved in the espionage for the nazis etc. - 50%? 10%? 5%? It could be better to explain the differences between the people born (in the mixed polish-german or german-polish families) in the Wilhelmians German Empire before 1918 as german citizens (where signed something only to not to be removed into the Generalna Gubernia) and some people in eastern Poland or Yugoslavia, which had never been german citizens before.
- To write, all or the most Volksdeutsche have done the espionage etc. is POV without historical proofs. BTW: It is not allowed to write POV and to remove {NPOV} as someone has the POV realised. AN(Ger) 05:50, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] During Nazi Times
Isn't "Before and during WW2, some Volksdeutsche in some countries like Czechoslovakia, Poland or Yugoslavia, actively supported the Nazis by espionage, sabotage and other services against their countries of origin" POV? It implies that the Volksdeutsche did or should have identified with Czechoslovakia, Poland or Yugoslavia, rather than Germany. If they were actively helping Germany they might have said that their country of origin was Germany, they had just been born in Czechoslovakia, Poland or Yugoslavia. Avalon 00:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
