Talk:Vegetarianism

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Contents 1 Reality Check 2 Vegetarianism in Buddhism 3 Note regarding Just an onlooker (talk • contribs) 4 POV tag on the "Criticism / Health concerns" section 5 NPOV on Hinduism

[edit] Reality Check

Fish such as cod or tuna contains only about 25mg of cholesterol (good idea). Small amounts of cholesterol from fish WILL reduce your total cholesterol intake instead of eating pig meat, KFC, or Mcd's. I personally like cod. A vegetarian diet can be or actually is a very risky behavior by having a severe protein deficiency.

Brown rice is a inherently poor source of protein. I consider brown rice a good source of complex carbs. Nice try though. Vegetarains point to red meat. I point to fish!!! Vegetarains eating behavior has nothing to do for a health benefit. Fish, egg whites, non-fat milk, and skinless turkey breast are healthy sources of high quality protein. Soy, on the other hand may cause cancer, allergies, and birth defects which most vegetarians say, "soy is the best?"

The unsourced opinions claim a "Vegetarian Diet" has a significant advantage? Wikipedia is not a promo ad for people to become Vegetarians.

Adding original research to Wikipedia is not acceptable. If you want to avoid an "edit war" read Wikipedia's policies. --Just an onlooker 20:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you seriously need a reality check. Sentences like "Another misconception is by some vegetarians who think vegetable protein is equal to animal protein. In fact, protein obtained from animal is inherently a higher quality than protein obtained from vegetable" are just plain propaganda. There are many kinds of plant protein and many kinds of animal protein. To say that animal protein is inherently a higher quality than plant protein is just nonsense. Some kinds of of animal protein, such as gelatin, are severely deficient in several essential amino acids (see the USDA database, for instance). Some kinds of plant protein too. So what? Some kinds of plant protein are very adequate. It is very easy to live with just plant protein, I have been doing that myself for over 15 years and have no signs at all of protein deficiency (let alone "severe protein deficiency"!).

Please stop your propaganda. It is perfectly possible (and quite easy) for humans to live healthily without preying on other animals. That is fact. Why do you want to obscure that fact?

David Olivier 23:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

"These sentences above written by "David Olivier" are unsourced, opinions, and pure speculation."

Notice how David FAILS at every level to explain what plant sources equal animal sources of proteins.

Soy is the highest quality plant protein and it is very risky to eat. All other plant sources of protein are lower than soy. So what is left to eat for a true vegetarian? Notice how I have been asking this same question for about a week now and eveybody FAILS to give me a VALID ANSWER! David is a perfect example that vegetarians falsely believe in their mind that plant sources of protein are equal to animal sources of protein. David merely makes my info even more valid now than ever! Just an onlooker 00:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I provided a simple list of Vegetarian protein sources a few days ago, but to be honest you don't seem very open to suggestions. What is there that we could provide which is much clearer than the table in this link? I am not suffering from Protein problems and have followed a lacto-vegetarian diet for over ten years. See Protein from Vegetarian sources. GourangaUK 09:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Just an onlooker: some of your responses, this one in particular, appear to be contravening Wikipedia's policy of no personal attacks. Please think about what you are saying and word your responses more carefully - comment on content, not on the contributor. Thanks. Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 10:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The reference you provided clearer points to protein content. The quality of protein is about protein value not protein content. The table is unscientific. It only explains about protein content. It has nothing at all to do with protein content. Go to the vegetarian article and click on the links that explain about protein value. Please provide links about protein quality. Protein from vegetable sources such as peanut butter (listed in the unscientific table about protein content) is actually lower than fish animal protein.

Here is some info about protein quality. It is about protein value not protein content.

Some or maybe even most vegetarians have an "extreme false belief" that protein content is the same as protein quality.

Some or most vegetarians do not draw the line between the different grades of protein quality and protein content. Just an onlooker 18:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I notice that your reference states that the "best" sources of protein are:

Egg 9.25, Whey 8.20, Casein 7.80, Milk 7.80

All of those could be found in an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet, which is the most common type (in the western world, at least). I also question your reasoning in stating that

most vegetarians have an "extreme false belief" that protein content is the same as protein quality

- A (non-scientific, but nonetheless reasonable) quick survey amongst 10 people here suggests that as the only vegetarian present, I'm the only one who knows what the difference is. :) Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 18:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I said some or most. If you prefer I should clarifiy and say just some have a "false belief"... Happy now? A quick glance by most who disagree with me on this talk page continue to point to a false belief about protein content in their references that they continue to tout as proof showing the vegetable protein is equal to animal. When I talk about vegetarian diet I am pointing to a strict vegetarain diet that eats egg and dairy occasionally. People who consider themselves true vegetarians do not eat any meat, dairy, or eggs, period! Just an onlooker 19:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, people who eat no dairy or eggs are not vegetarians, they're vegans. The majority of self-described vegetarians in the US do eat eggs and dairy products.

Additionally, please watch yourself when making comments such as "most people who disagree with me on this page continue to point to a false belief..." and remember to comment on content, not the contributor.

Furthermore, I have shown, in your own reference, that the average vegetarian diet can provide perfectly adequate protein, and fully incorporates the "best" sources of protein. I think this point has been debated enough. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 20:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and please stop creating additional headings for each reply you make. It obfuscates the page's contents list and breaks any links to a specific section of this talk page. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 20:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

An average vegetarian diet is not referenced in the link I provided. Your statement obfuscates the facts. According to some vegetarians who I have spoken to, they believe plant protein is equal to animal. Some (which I am not going to say who) point to protein content rather than protein quality. When some (not most) point to protein content they can develop a protein deficiency by following their false belief in their mind. Just an onlooker 20:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, an encyclopedic article cannot be written based on your own personal experiences, and while the reference provided does not explain what an "average" vegetarian diet is, the standard by which products are labelled as "vegetarian" includes products containing milk and eggs, so it can be assumed that the most common definition of a vegetarian is one who does not eat meat, but does consume eggs and dairy products. My previous statement simply said that a "vegetarian" diet contains dairy and eggs, which are among the "best" protein sources in your previous reference, so I hold my statement to be correct and not "obfuscating the facts" in any way.

Anyway, this discussion is proving to be extremely unproductive, so I think it's best left alone from here. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 20:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Some assume (which I am not going to name who) vegetarians always eat egg and dairy. Nothing could be further from the truth! Some vegetarians do not eat egg and some vegetarians do not eat dairy products. This type of eating behavior can sometimes cause a protein deficiency. Also, a quick glance at references about protein content on pro vegetarian websites do not mention anything about protein quality. This further misinforms the public and many many vegetarians. They always point to protein content. I hold other statements (which I am not going to point to who) to be falsehoods. Thanks, Just an onlooker 21:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Due to the way you are continuing to make (thinly disguised) comments about other editors, I respectfully request that you take this discussion to my talk page or stop. Otherwise, I may request intervention.

I will not discuss the main point further here, because I feel that I have made my position perfectly clear - that most self-declared vegetarians in the US do eat products containing protein of the best quality. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 21:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, guys, "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" or reality. There is zero point debating on talk page trying to convice other side that vegetarian diet is deficient/sufficient. Just add content with proper source and it doesn't matter. This article contain too many unverifiable statements. And citing POV or facts from advocacy group is not acceptable for encyrcropedia. Therefore, I will add ^{[citation needed]} and leave it for while. Secondly, this apply to just on looker. If you want to contribute, explaing what it mean by "quality" in term of protein would clear thing up. Then adding list of type of protein as well as list of food (vegetables, milk, egg, meat and so on) which can provide these different protein type help. You don't have to convince anyone. All you have to do is to demonstrate that your source are verifiable as defined by wikipedia. Vapour

Oh, and this is to Mig77. As of "there is right level of fat and/or cholesterol", you can google or just look at wikipedia articles on fat and cholesterol. As of optimal diet, read the section of criticism, where I quoted from peer reviewed articles from academic journal. Note that Adventist studies are already incoroporated into two meta studies I quoted. These sutides clearly support my "sensible rule of thumb" This "insight" is pretty much "duh" for anyone with common sense. As of lot of fat vegetarian Hindu in Sri Lanka, I'm sorry I can't pay you to go there. But did you know that human body weight is determined by the calories input/output so one can easily become fat if one overeat on rice or nun bread? Vapour

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth or reality."

In this case, the point we disagree on is that a vegetarian diet does not contain "good" sources of protein. The citation given directly contradicts the "poor quality protein" point in its own conclusion, which in my opinion makes any inclusion of this "information" misleading at best - it is not verifiable if it's contradicted by its own source! The policy page on verifiability itself states that "zero information is preferred to misleading or false information", so the "inferior protein quality" point is most definitely not suitable for inclusion in the article. However, I think that it may be worth inserting into the article on Veganism, since the claim that the "good" sources of protein are missing from the diet is relevant in that article. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 08:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

For clarification's sake: we have sorted out this little disagreement. The page, as-is, is something that we agree on, and I'm happy to get all this out of the way and leave the article better off :) Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 21:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Each see what they want to see. You seems to ignore the first info in criticism section which show that vegetarian are only equal in longvity to occasional meat eater but lose out to those who eat fish. So, it's not (yet) accurate to say that vegetarianism is equally optimal or equally best. Moreover, your meat-cholesterol-bad is a factually incorrect argument. Plus, if you read carefully you might notice that protein is not the end all factor in deciding optimal diet. In fact, eggs, for example are high in cholesterol so using egg as defence kind of contradict your first cholesterol-bad argument. Vapour

In fact, eggs is one of the best sources of protein. No cholesterol, no fat, and very high quality protein.

When talking about egg we mean egg whites. So a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet can have egg whites non-fat milk and still get enough protein but miss out on the healthy benefits if fish though.

I propose a new type of vegetarian who eats egg (egg whites), milk (always low or non-fat), and ocean fish but no land animal meat. "Lacto-ovo-eco vegetarian." I eat no red meat. But eat fish, eggs, and dairy. I do not know -- does anyone consider my diet a vegetarian diet.

Start a new stub maybe: A "lacto-ovo-eco vegetarian" does not eat land meat but eat ocean seafood, egg, and dairy. --Just an onlooker 01:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a vegetarian who eats fish, unless you found some way to grow fish on a plant. And Vapour, please refrain from making personal attacks and stop putting words in my mouth: I'm not debating the article in any way, which I have specifically said. Saying "your argument is factually incorrect" is nonsense if I'm not arguing. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 09:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a correction Davidjk, vegetarians in Orissa and Bengal, in India who despite eating fish consider themselves vegetarians. They call fish as "Jalpushp" (water flower). Interestingly they include brahmins who are normally considered strict vegetarians. Idleguy 15:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

vegetarianˌvejiˈte(ə)rēən - noun - a person who does not eat meat, and sometimes other animal products, esp. for moral, religious, or health reasons.

- from the Oxford American Dictionary (emphasis mine). It doesn't matter what some people consider themselves to be - Wikipedia works by consensus, and the most common definition is that vegetarians consume no meat whatsoever. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 16:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't debating the definition. It would be nice if people can open up their minds, close the dictionaries and look at what some people think and eat in the real world. I found this [1] stating that some seem to mistake fish as a vegetarian food. Idleguy 17:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vegetarianism in Buddhism

Articles are forked for a reason. The Vegetarianism article is very long, and the Vegetarianism in Buddhism article is very detailed, so it is correct to maintain it as a fork and link to it in the article. In fact, ideally, the vegetarianism article should be forked more, since it's currently 49KB with over 30 sections. Please keep additions on the topic of Buddhism in the appropriate article. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 09:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note regarding Just an onlooker (talk • contribs)

For editors involved with this new editor, you should be aware that Checkuser [2] has positively linked this user to other disruptive sock puppets such as Messenger2010 (talk • contribs) and AndyCanada (talk • contribs). This user has been involved with similarly disruptive behaviour, controversial edits and 3RR-dodging in the same vein as the edits to this article. Similar disruptions and POV edits can be seen other soy and vegetarian related articles such as soy protein and soybeans. Thanks. Yankees76 14:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag on the "Criticism / Health concerns" section

It seems that due to the relentless efforts of one or two people, that section has become filled with unacceptable statements, such as the following.

"both vegetarian and vegan advocacy groups invariably promote their diet as healthy while claiming that the diet which includes meat and/or fish is inherently unhealthy"

There are certainly many AR groups (such as the Veggie Pride, for instance) that are vegetarian/vegan advocates but who do not claim that meat or fish is inhernently unhealthy. That foregoing animal flesh (and byproducts) is equivalently healthy is enough for many to make an ethical argument in favour of refusing to participate in the slaughter of animals.

"Critics argue that these groups are engaging in scientific misrepresentation in direct opposition to public interest"

What critics? How can such a blatantly POV statement be included without qualification in a WP article?

"A common misconception is that vegetable protein is equal to animal protein. In fact, protein obtained from animal sources such as fish, eggs and dairy is inherently a higher biological value protein according to the Biological Value method of testing protein quality than protein obtained from vegetable sources such as soy."

Weasel words, unsupported statements, unreliable references, absurd statements (about the "inherently higher biological values", see above.

David Olivier 20:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I've attempted to source some of this material and add some valid refences, however any attempts to do this are being reverted by that one particular user and his/her sockpuppets. Yankees76 20:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

To the sockpuppets carrying out multiple reversions: please stop. You aren't helping the quality of the article, and I'm sure it's frustrating for all involved. You've already broken 3RR and I (and other editors, I'm sure) will treat further reversions/edits as being not in good faith. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 21:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I've put in a request for semi-protection in the meantime. Would you be able to revert the last edit made by "Vegetables76" - it purposely removes any inputs I've put into this article, rather than discuss the edits. I won't revert because I've already done three reverts today. Thanks. Yankees76 21:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Reverted. However due to the large number of reversions and edits I've had to make to this article recently I won't make any more, so hopefully the petty POV pushing will stop here. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 21:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The user has issues with the material - and I can't see why not - other than he/she's annoyed about being found out as a sockpuppet today. There have been extensive debates over this same material on the soy protein article and other articles talk pages, by this same user, his/her socks, myself and other users/admins. I will gladly discuss and provide further verifiable sources to corroborate what I've inserted. Yankees76 21:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV on Hinduism

It says "However, the Bhagavad Gita also states that killing an animal as an offering to Brahman gives this animal's soul a chance to gain a human body;"- No it doesnt. Can you give me the reference? Bhagvad Gita doesnt say anything about animal sacrifice anywhere. The reference given in next line is about Human bodies.

Seems to me this part was written by someone trying to find loopholes in Gita that allow meat eating. Unless proper reference, with the line that quotes that the Gita allows animal sacrifice is given, I might have to raise NPOV.