User:Vaquero100

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Vaquero100 is a Catholic priest with degrees in philosophy, theology and sociology of religion. He has an interest in Catholic topics as well as American domestic architecture of the 19th Century.

This editor is an Inclusionist!

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CC vs. RCC

talk Catholic Church

Wikipedia:WikiProject Catholicism

Talk:Roman Catholic Church/Name

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1 An Example of the Intellectual Vacuity and Moral Nihilism of some WP Administrators
2 Articles Created
3 Categories Created
4 Struggles for Justice
5 WP References

[edit] An Example of the Intellectual Vacuity and Moral Nihilism of some WP Administrators

These two administrators should lose their privileges:

George,I read you think "Catholic Church" is nasty. George, you are clearly new to this debate and your British and Anglican background suggest that you may be unfamiliar with the nomenclature of the Catholic Church as well as the thoroughly established use of "Catholic Church" in reference to those in communion with Rome. Please see this page for a more thorough treatment of the subject matter: CC vs. RCC Vaquero100 17:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

No, indeed. I said that I thought that mounting the argument was nasty. The Nicene Creed says that all Christians believe in one catholic church, with "catholic" meaning orthodox and united, and we do all believe in one church. However, multiple schisms have brought the various rites out of communion with one another. To distinguish between them, we indicate which rite they follow. Do they follow the Roman rite, the Byzantine rite, the Syrian rite, the Russian rite? Thus, Roman Catholic Church, Russian Catholic Church, Syrian Catholic Church, etc. To erase the distinction is to insist, in effect, that the Roman rite is the only one to have a claim on being "the" Catholic church. I consider my own church to be catholic, but I am quite sure that it is not Roman Catholic.

Even if all of that theological and historical evidence were not sufficient, though, we need to follow the conventions of the wider Anglophone world, and that is "Roman Catholic" for the church whose polity headed by the Bishop of Rome, and not "Catholic," except in the most ignorant of usages. Again: true and false are not the issue when it comes to locating our lemmae. Geogre 17:45, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Geogre, in response to Vaquero's invitation to visit the page describing the case for the proposed use of "Catholic Church", you have replied with a statement of what you call "theological and historical evidence." If it were indisputable that this evidence is as you state (and it is not), you would still be correct in saying that they would not be sufficient. Wikipedia naming conventions address the issues of self-identification and common use with a minimum of ambiguity. If you would review the case presented, you would see that you have an incorrect understanding of the "conventions of the wider Anglophone world," and that in common usage "Catholic Church" is always understood to mean the "church whose polity headed by the Bishop of Rome." I would ask that you put aside your POV and support the application of Wikipedia policy to this issue. SynKobiety 17:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I have not been interested in rehashing an old polemic, one that has spilled blood and given no profit to the church or world. I remain so. Wikipedia follows the world in this regard, and, I repeat, it is not the place to redress what any of us regard as historical wrongs. When Britanica, American Heritage, World Book, the Oxford, and the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church agree in dropping "Roman" and using only "catholic" to refer to one specific rite, then Wikipedia will be bound to follow suit. However, as they all, like us, distinguish the various "catholic" churches, the status quo has the benefit of being most useful. Self identification is irrelevant in this regard, but, even if it were at play, you would be wrong in professing to speak for all priests, bishops, cardinals, and archbishops in seeking to drop the "Roman" designation. Geogre 18:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry if you thought that I had referred to an old polemic or to any historical wrongs. I merely expressed support for applying published Wikipedia guidelines regarding the use of the name "Catholic Church." According to American Heritage, World Book, Websters Unabridged, and Random House Collegiate, "Catholic Church" refers only to the Church headed by the Bishop of Rome. Also contrary to your statement, self-identification is not only relevant, but according to Wikipedia:Naming conflict is one of the objective criteria for choosing a name. In determining self-identification, I would not presume to speak for all priests, bishops, etc., but do note the following usage by these national conferences: The Catholic Church in England and Wales, Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales, The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, The Catholic Church in Australia, the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference, The Catholic Church in New Zealand, and the New Zealand Catholic Bishops' Conference. I encourage you to reconsider your opposition to the consistent application of Wikipedia naming conventions regarding this. SynKobiety 20:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Not dictionaries, encyclopedias. Look for the entry describing the Roman Catholic Church in any print encyclopedia, and see whether it is lodged at "Catholic Church" or "Roman Catholic Church." Dictionaries describe usage. For Americans, who have few Syrian, Russian, or Greek churches to contend with, usage will dictate a clipping of "Roman Catholic" to "Catholic," but the same would not be true in an encyclopedia. Again, when those encyclopedias change their entries, we can change ours. Otherwise, you are asking to correct a wrong -- the wrong of not being considered the only catholic church -- by waging the battle here. We will follow the readers. Geogre 22:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Those poor stupid Americans have plenty of Syrian, Russian, and Greek Churches - more than the English, in fact. If you meant "encylcopedia" you should not have included dictionaries in your reference list. Dictionaries do describe usage. Wikipedia naming conventions refer to usage also. If you would read and understand the naming conventions then you might start to follow readers instead of trying to lead them. SynKobiety 00:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I wonder which hoary old argument has just been revived? Could it perhaps be the perenial demand by the Papists to move their article from Roman Catholic Church to Catholic Church? I must wander along and have a look - maybe there will be a new argument this time. Yes, yes, I know - the triumph of hope over experience... Just zis Guy you know? 21:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

How dull. It turned out to be somethign altogether less imaginitive - a plain old-fashioned POV fork. Reverted. With just a tiny application of rouge to hold things in place. Just zis Guy you know? 21:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a POV fork, but the forking involves something a bit submerged. The name has big implications for Roman Catholics of a particularly conservative sort, and it's very important for protestants (esp. Anglicans and Lutherans) that the name change not take place. Now me, I don't think that changing a name will change the fact that it's one church and not THE church, but if Wikipedia were to take the lead in reverting the name, we'd have some extremely angry readers/editors. Geogre 22:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles Created

[edit] Struggles for Justice

Defense of the Catholic Church in the use of her name. (Long Term Project)

[edit] WP References

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