Talk:The Left Hand of Darkness

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An assessment of this article is currently taking place along with other articles about Hugo Award-winning works.

	This article is part of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to novels on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the General Project Discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Tasks you can do: Novels WikiProject Announcements and open tasks (watch • edit • discuss) → Please help with tagging articles! Update this regularly using the "edit" link above and hitting "save" immediately after change! Critique (Featured Article): None current - "6 achieved / 2 removed" Review: Erast Fandorin Improve: Nineteen Eighty-Five • Vathek • Enderby Outside • Ice • The Giver • Crown of Shadows • More... Create: Black Cocktail • The Timeservers • The Wooden Sea • London, 1850 • The Fatal Eggs • More... Novel without Infobox (auto list): many novel articles do not have an infobox - and need one (auto generated list) - may need expansion of article too New book related notability proposals have been started and are to be seen at Wikipedia:Notability (books), please take a look at these and comment. These are NOT active yet, and a being bogged down between various interests. Please contribute your views. Our Collaboration Department is continuing with one more title Doctor Zhivago (novel) for the current month. Get collaborating on the article and also look at nominating other titles to be considered. changes

Contents 1 Copyright violation? 2 Mary Sue Comment 3 Dodgy logic on the reason Gethen was created 4 Tone of Article

[edit] Copyright violation?

Several paragraphs of this article are straight copies from the Scifi.com review that it also links to ( http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue116/classic.html ). I think the article (and the book) deserves better than this, although if a review is underway I'm sure it'll be addressed soon. I think more analysis of the concepts and content (and messages?) of the book would be welcome, though I'm terrible at such things myself. --StoneColdCrazy 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I've verified the copyright violation and removed the material, which was added all in one edit. Justin Johnson 04:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mary Sue Comment

I've removed the following addition:

Teresa Nielsen Hayden and Joanna Russ have noted that the novel can be considered a form of Mary Sue fiction.

I don't necessarily disagree with it (though I don't see how they two could say that). The problem is that it's an opaque criticism: The line as included says only that TNH and JR claim this, not why or how they claim this.

If you're going to add this line, please include either a brief exposition of the parallels between LHOD and Mary Sue-ism in fiction, or link to the arguments presented by TNH and JR. Without that, it's really just a meaningless slap at le Guin. JJ 22:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Having read the THN article linked in the Mary Sue article, I'm still not convinced the content should be added, since in THN's blog entry, the entirety of LHOD's mention is:

I, considering it, said “Which is not to say that The Left Hand of Darkness is a specimen of Star Trek slash fiction.” Joanna's jaw dropped, and we stared at each other in wild surmise. The patterns not only fitted; they explained some otherwise inexplicable plot twists in that novel." [1]

No argument or analysis on why this is so, just an offhand remark that two sci-fi authors once, in conversation, analysed it as such.

If that line is going to be added back, I would suggest making some effort to explain how the theory of Mary-sue-ism fits LHOD. Otherwise, it remains an opaque attack on the work. JJ 23:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

---

What is the meaning of "The Left Hand of Darkness"?

As I recall, it's light in this case. Hold on . . . yes, a little online investigation tells me I'm right. The novel deals a lot with themes of duality and opposition, and unity-in-duality. The narrator brings up the yin-yang in one conversation with someone from Winter, saying that the Gethenian embodies the symbol: "Light, dark. Fear, courage. Cold, warmth. Female, male. It is yourself, Therem. Both and one."--4.17.135.10 22:59, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dodgy logic on the reason Gethen was created

My recollection is that the book says that despite being called Gethen ('winter') the planet was in fact much warmer when it was initially settled by colonists. I am not certain that this was its original name. It would therefore not be correct to say that the genetic modification of the peoples was designed to help surviving the climate. That happened after the collapse of the galactic civilisation which had set up the experiment. I think it aludes directly to the Ekumen view being that this was a deliberate social experiment. The ice, coming later, did indeed affect how the people live - making major war campaigning impractical- but this was not an original part of the scheme. I havn't altered the text on this point, but i think it is wrong. Sandpiper 01:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tone of Article

I was once surprised to discover a female friend had been recommended to read the book as a feminist work. From my own POV it screamed 'gay' from the start. It is something of a love story between genly Ai and Therem Hath rem ir Estraven, who at least initially is presented also as a male character. It explores Ai's difficulties coming to terms with Estraven's dual sexuality and attractiveness to him. My friend failed to get into the book, perhaps because she only read the first chapter, which opens as a quite straightforward sf/costume drama setting. It is only later that the reader realises that the assumptions LeGuin sets up at the opening about the particular characters are, in fact, totally wrong. This theme goes right through the book, she sets up a situation and then shows how it plays differently on gethen. But in the end it shows a stunning support for traditional heroic nationalism, expressed in the individual Gethenian way, when the individual, Lord Estraven, sacrifices his life for the good of the people. All this complicated by the fact that the Karhidish king, who has taken a political position totally opposed to Estraven, is nonetheless also somewhat in love with him.

It is certainly not true that 'sexual conflicts play no part on gethenian society'. It is true that sexual differences have been eliminated, but the business of love and jealousy continues just the same and plays an important part in the story.

"Nations exist, and different places have different societies, but they blend at the edges". I'm not sure they do. The difference between karhide and Orgoreyn is rather sharp and is defined exactly at the border. Orgoreyn is presented as a rather more politically centralised country to Karhide, and in a sense is there to show exactly what estraven is opposing. Orgoreyn is something of a communist totalitarian state, contrasted with the feudal kingdom of karhide. This is a conflict of ideologies existing upon gethen, rather than something to do with the climate or genetic tampering. LeGuin is here presenting the similiarities between Gethenian and human societies, despite the physical differences. But into this she places a third example, a greatly unified sense of family and community. Estraven, as expert politican, seeks to mainipulate the opportunities presented by this visitor from space to gain advantage for Karhide.

To return to the title of this subsection, I'm not at all sure the tone of the article as I found it well represents the book. Sandpiper 01:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The sense in which "sexual conflicts play no part on gethenian society" is at the social level--the conflicts you identify (love triangles, jealousy) are at the individual level. Socially, though, there's no division of labour based on sex/gender, nor sexual stereotypes to be fulfilled/overcome, nor an insitutional power imbalance. The novel is feminist at least in the sense that it's an explicit exploration of a society in which the premise of radical feminism, that gender roles are the fundamental division upon which power is divided in our society, is not applicable.

Calling the work 'gay' seems to miss the point: 'heterosexuality' and 'homosexuality' are meaningless terms in Gethenian society. To the extent that Genly Ai is seen as perverse, it's because he remains fixed in one gender, and not because of the gender he 'chooses'. I'm not saying that queer identity doesn't play a part in the novel, but I wouldn't identify it as an overarching theme since there's no discussion at all in the book about the role played by a minority sexual orientation.

The reason I wrote that nations "blend at the edges" is the passages in which Ai is at the border, and, IIRC, he describes the people there as a comfortable mix of the two nations, with no particular allegiance to either one. The purpose of the centrally directed raiding that occurs is just to keep the borders sharp, to retain at least a little bit of 'those people over there are our enemies'. Yes, Orgoreyn is an ideologically separate place from Karhide, but that's due to geography and local power politics, where members of other nations are artificially demonized as a means of distinguishing 'them' from 'us'.

I'm not saying nationalism is absent, but le Guin's point seems to me to be that it's artificially emphasized for the purposes of local politics; the uglier side of nationalism that leads to war lacks a critical mass in the book just because of the nearly subconscious realization they all have from gender-switching that the differences just aren't that great. Justin Johnson 23:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Re sexual conflicts, I'm not disputing your longer explanation, but that explanation was not in the article, and without it, a reader is liable to misunderstand the wording to mean that conflicts around sex do not exist, and they plainly form a part of the story.

The work is gay in the same sense that it is feminist. The premise of the book is sexually equivalent individuals forming relationships, which is what gay relationships are about. All individuals are potential partners, not just one half of them. And in this universe, considerably less than half. Hence gethen really is a gay man's fantasy, and exploration of how this might pan out. Gay relationships do not suffer from this 'them and us' division within the relationship, which is precisely the situation Le Guin is talking about. A gay man's approach to women is not affected by her belonging to the class of potential sexual partners, while all men belong to a class of maybe yes, maybe no, but unknowable from appearances, rather like Gethen. Gay relationships also in practice tend to include more of the casual, open, kemmer house approach to sex. It is also true, though, as you say, that Ai does rather have the tables turned on him as a member of a sexual majority group who now becomes a minority of one. I think the story may have lost some of its punch to shock about sex, as society has changed since it was written. I don't know if Le Guin has commented on this unofficial parallel? And, while I wouldn't necessarily consider wiki as a definitive source, I note our biography of LeGuin describes Darkness' as an exploration of sexual identity.

Yes, I was thinking about what happened at the borders when I wrote my comment. I think the point made in the book is that the blending you describe is rather more the old way, when Karhide and Orgoreyn were presumably rather more similar. The new order in Orgoreyn is rather determined to stamp out any suggestion that any of its people might be tempted to follow the Karhiders example. Le Guin paints Orgoreyn as a far nastier place than Karhide. If anything, the book reads more like an exhaltation of 'the American way' as embodied by Estraven, over the communist central states of russia, and the traditional aristocratic rulers of Europe. Sandpiper 02:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If you were the guy who set up the gethen experiment, and then were writing it up afterwards, I think you would have to say it had failed to decide the issue of whether the people were now not warlike. The climate on Gethen has become such as to make war impossible, rather invalidating any experimental results on this point. But perhaps what you could say, is that now technology has advanced to the point where it is possible to make war, orgoreyn is setting out on a path leading to exactly that. If Legun is saying anything, she is saying that all individuals have

You probably want to finish that sentence. In any case, here go my two cents as a LeGuin fan who feels horrified at hearing LHoD called "a gay man's fantasy" and Estraven "an embodiment of the American way": is all the above, however interesting, your own opinion, or is it part of an authoritative study, academic paper or independent professional review? Because if the former is true, this discussion cannot lead anywhere with regards to changing article content. With that in mind, I read LHoD as a good thought experiment on the dissolution of sexual identity. It would've worked the same whatever Ai's gender, and whatever s/he assumed Estraven's gender to be. I think hetero-, bi- and homosexual men and women can read it in their own valid ways and extract different insights, and this may be regardless of LeGuin's own intentions (which is what marks a novel as a great one). As for the "American Way", what you're probably referring to is a set of common traditional values ranging from casual patriotism and common sense to good old mom's apple pie, which are really not exclusive of the American Way, and that actually do not characterize today's American Way. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't know what happened to the sentence, probably something like...the potential for all human responses. The above is in answer to the opinions already included in the article, a fuller explanation of the amendments I made there, and indeed might contemplate adding in the future, and also specifically in response to views expressed here. What i have written here is self evidently correct: it is based upon the facts in the book. As with all such works, it all depends on how you look at it. It would amaze me if no one has made such comments elsewhere, though I have never thought to look since they were quite self evident. If any such debate occurred when the book came out, it would pre-date the internet.

I noticed that on her website LeGuin has a go at the writers of the filmed version of Earthsea, who presumed to comment that LeGuin would agree with how they had faithully included the important aspects of her work. I got the impression she felt they had not the slightest idea what she felt was important in the book (or at least didn't want it in their film). Her books are wonderful fairytales, but extremely insightful. Darkness was written in the middle of a sexual revolution (again according to wiki) 40 years ago, essentially by an experienced anthropologist and sociologist. Wonder what George Bush made of it? But, in fact, i think you are agreeing with me, that to state, in the article, that the book has only one, specific interpretation...is plainly wrong. Which was rather the point I was trying to make. (My style of argument may be a little like LeGuin's, now that I think about it.)

Oh, and I think Gethenians have a strong sexual identity, so you can't exactly call this work an exploration of the dissolution of sexual identity, merely a change. Sandpiper 01:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)