Talk:South Africa/Archive 4

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THIS IS AN ARCHIVE. PLEASE DO NOT EDIT IT: RATHER ADD YOUR COMMENTS TO Talk:South Africa. THANKS.

Contents 1 Missing Information 2 NP sympathy for NAZI Germany debate 3 Coloured 4 Racism in SA under the ANC 5 Similarities between the Nazi regime compared to the ANC government in SA 6 Crime Expo SA URL Added 7 URL DELETED

[edit] Missing Information

About crime and the fall of apartheid. It is noted that many of the people have moved to gated communities; however, these communities are nearly exclusively White. There are a few non-gated White neighborhoods but they are far in few. Most are gated, and inside the gates the houses are gated as well with bars on windows and private security firms roaming the streets. I think this section should be expanded; furthermore, more then one million whites have left South Africa since the fall of apartheid because of the downright staggering rape, murder, and crime rates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Volksgeist (talk • contribs) .

The above statement is nonsense. I live here, there aint no "exclusively white" gated communities. There aren't even so many gated communites to start with. Please do not make sweeping statements about complete rubbish on here, Wikipedia is for facts. Scotteh 18:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Please sign your comments and provide (a) your source (statistics) for this information; (b) the relevance of your white-black analysis. You are stereotyping, and without statistical evidence, this information cannot be added. -- Chris Lester ^talk 10:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

In any case, it is patently ridiculous to claim that "there are a few non-gated White neighbourhoods", implying that most white neighbourhoods are gated. I don't know what the situation may be in Jo'burg, but certainly in Cape Town the gated suburbs are few and far between (although admittedly increasing in number) and by far the majority of white people live in ordinary "open" suburbs. It may well be true about the gated houses, bars on windows, security firms, etc.; but the same could, after all, be said of Los Angeles. It's also misleading to ascribe emigration entirely to crime; although some whites certainly have emigrated because of crime, many others emigrated simply to follow better economic opportunities elsewhere or, in certain cases, because they have lingering racist objections to living in a country with a "black" government. - htonl 00:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where in South Africa you grew up but an "ordinary" suburb is not one where houses are surrounded by huge walls and bars on windows. At least it wasn't before apartheid. And the situation in Los Angeles, well, similar demographics have caused the gated/bared communities as well. And the large majority of ex-South Africans I talk to have moved because of crime. It's simply too dangerous since the fall of apartheid. Murder, rape, happening constantly. Can't even stop a red lights at night... etc. Volksgeist 04:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not about who you talk to, it's about what you can prove. Scotteh 19:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The South African expatriate community is a strange one and not always the best source of information about South Africa. I've stopped at red lights, even in Hillbrow, supposedly the most dangerous place in South Africa. I've walked around at night, and gone into squatter camps — all things that should have gotten me killed. Yet, amazingly, they didn't. Páll ^{(Die pienk olifant)} 19:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm originally from South Africa now live in the USA. Crime is horrible, hospitals are horrible, police are horrible, etc. Furthermore, qualified Whites are actually declined jobs even if they are more skilled because of the stupid empowerment act. I see no viable future for the Boers or English in SA unless something changes. I give the country 10-20 years before it turns into what happened to Zimbabwe. I don't know where you live in SA, PZFUN, but what you describe is radically different then what I've seen in the years following apartheid. Volksgeist 23:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Please take no offence, but South Africa is a beautiful, wonderful country. Yet, as a free country and democracy, you are allowed to express your views, even if I think you're criminally full of shit. Páll ^{(Die pienk olifant)} 05:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Beautiful countries don't lead the world in all aspects of murder, rape, armed robbery and thievery. Beautiful countries don't throw people in jail to get raped because they got a speeding ticket. In beautiful countries you do not need to live in walled compounds with private security firms because of the crime problem. And finally, beautiful countries do not have a problem with "baby rape." South Africa will turn into a Zimbabwe once you bite the hand that feeds. Volksgeist 12:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't argue with Volksgeist there... But calling us Boers and referring to English people as English is racist. If you want to refer to us, call us Afrikaans people, or whatever you find appropriate. Or if you use informal names to describe a race then do so on the same level with each race, not glorifying anyone with sophisticated referrences (whatever the spelling of that is). Scotteh 12:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Volksgeist, South Africa doesn't lead the world in murder. Serbitar 05:07, 20 Jun

Is this what South Africa is really like? I'm a white New Zealander and i'll be going to South Africa next year for a student exchange but i'm not so sure i want go now because lately i've heard alot of negative things about the racial tension, crime etc....Can someone please enlighten me i really want to know what the real South Africa is like. Many of the expat SA's in NZ go on about it been a rather dangerous place. Do you get like white schools and black schools? Arguss 9:43, 23 June 2006

Hi, I am from there it really is a beautiful nation and I think you will like it. What school are you going to? Where? And are you living on campus? Most of the major universities have populations that are 60% White (Pretoria) but that doesn't mean the surrounding areas are. There are no apartheid-like schools; however, there areas in the suburbs of the cities that are usually 100% White -- they have huge walls, security fences, private security teams, etc etc etc. It really is a dangerous place after the fall of apartheid. I don't know if you will be driving but I wouldn't after 8pm without a South African to help you out. Anyone, please tell me where you'll be going and we can probably help you out more. Volksgeist 16:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should come to Strand, if it really makes you feel more comfortable being around whites. However, if you're English, go to Somerset West, where all the rich (white) English people live. Scotteh 14:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Volksgeist seems to be an irrational user, who does not take fact into account. All his statements are emotive, unproven and very often pure hogwash. Volksgeist should realize that the dangers are not that great and that he is probably making a mountain out of a molehill. Wikipedia is not the place to preach hatred and nonsense.

Look at some of his other edits, all showing how blatantly racist he is: [1] or [2]. Please calm down, and give us some decent statistics to support your claims. Otherwise, take that nonsense somewhere else!!! -- Chris Lester ^talk 20:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The only 'claims' I need to make are about South Africa from when I lived there. This guy is going around Cape Town, maybe you can help him out as I lived in Pretoria not Cape Town. You may not agree with what I say but I am willing to bet you probably live in some type of suburban enviroment outside of the city. Furthermore, I would be more then willing to guess the demographics of said community. I somehow doubt you will go out past dark to go buy something at the supermarket as you once might have. He's actually going to go to a university outside of Cape Town, perhaps you could give him some advice as well? Volksgeist 21:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

When did you leave South Africa Volksgeist? While, Yes I live in a so called "Gated" community in Pretoria, it became one after i moved in here. Crime is bad here, but definatly NOT as you put it. I do in fact go out to buy something at the supermarket at night, and I do in fact walk around places like Hatfield at night and feel perfectly safe. Give us some hard proof of what your saying. South Africa is a beautiful country and I'd recommend anybody to come here for holiday (Just give hillbrow a miss) Jediwannabe 13:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Gated may depend on definition, however, the crime statistics for SAfrica should be available pre and post apartheid. You may hate apartheid but maybe you don't like dead?

[edit] NP sympathy for NAZI Germany debate

I have to take issue with the following statement: "The right-wing National Party sympathised with Nazi Germany during the war, and sought greater racial segregation, or apartheid, after it."

This sentence is utterly misleading and possibly false.

South Africa formed part of the Allied Forces during WWI and WWII. They fought against Germany. The statement should be edited out or otherwise explained in more detail. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.54.202.82 (talk • contribs) .

Yes, but the National Party was not in government during the war - it only came into power in 1948. At the outbreak of war there was a split in the United Party; Barry Hertzog left the UP to join the NP, and was replaced by Jan Smuts as prime minister. During the war many of the people who were later to be senior members of government in the early NP years - John Vorster, for example - were actually interned because of their Nazi sympathies. My reference for this is the Reader's Digest Illustrated History of South Africa. - htonl 14:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, many members of the Broederbond went to jail because of their anti-British and pro-Nazi sympathies. Páll ^{(Die pienk olifant)} 17:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This sounds a lot like a recent debate in the Cape Times, over letters published by Nazi sympathisers in the Nat party. Apparently some key figures openly expressed their support of the Nazis. I'll look for the exact reference.Ethnopunk 14:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coloured

This doesn't make sense: "It has the largest population of people of Coloured (i.e., mixed racial background), European, and Indian communities in Africa." I looked up "Coloured" and it is a term used in Apartheid South Africa, according to wikipedia, so it doesn't make any sense to use it in a trans-African context. Surely that sentence should say "the largest mixed racial population" ?

No, Coloured is still used in South Africa and it does not have the negative connotations that it has in other English-speaking countries (most coloured people refer to themselves as that and find "mixed-race" to be an offensive term since it implies they have no specific ethnicity of their own). Although I'm not sure by the "European". That is maybe early Apartheid terminology. South Africa's whites are White Africans, not Europeans. Joziboy 08:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

What nonsense you have emptied your mouth of there. I am white. I live in South Africa. I consider myself to be European. I don't like the idea of being tagged by some dude over Wikipedia like I'm a MP3 on the internet. Don't create a conflict where people refer to themselves otherwise as you would have wished they did. Scotteh 15:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough :) Each to their own. I find the notion of being "European" ridiculous (and yes, I'm a white South African too) since we've been in South Africa for hundreds of years. That would mean Australians, Latin Americans, Americans etc are all European? Joziboy 16:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Go Joziboy, go! .... don't feel the trolls :) Páll ^{(Die pienk olifant)} 17:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Racism in SA under the ANC

Should you guys not be writing about the current problems of racism in South Africa, especially the new racist economic policies of the government and the rewriting of the constitution in recent years making race a mandatory requirement for school and job selection ?

A starting point would be http://globalpolitician.com/subarticle.asp?SID=56&cid=8

Now who the heck are you? And yes, I think you have a point there. I think it would be interesting for people to hear the story from a different point of view. Scotteh 14:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

"As a computer industry specialist who designs and builds computer systems, whenever I see black African leaders talking in bold scientific terms, I usually laugh, because they have no conception what those fancy, multi-syllabled words actually mean!" - that Jan Lamprecht is a laugh a minute. Apparently the "Zulu tribe" killed everyone in central South Africa and when the Trekkers found the place it was a "vacuum". Really? Moshoeshoe I turns in his grave. I was watching a documentary yesterday on SABC 1; according to it one of the steps in becoming an African and not a European is to learn the true history of the country. Another step is to learn an African language ("I'm an African - my family has been living here for 200 years!" and they never once made the effort to learn the local language? This is not Holland). What is this "racism" of which you speak (please do tell me)? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 17:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Personally, when I see any politician, of whatever race or nationality, talking in bold scientific terms, I usually laugh, because they don't generally know what they're talking about. (Just look at American Senator Ted Stevens and his "series of tubes" explanation of the Internet.) ;-) But I agree completely - that Lamprecht man is a nut. I mean - "Recent studies have shown that most Blacks are not interested in farming." - huh? Why did so many people apply to the Land Claims Commission then? Maybe they're not interested in farming because they know that they can't afford to buy a farm at the prices that are being asked? Judging by the few articles I've read from that link, he's also rabidly economically conservative, believing in a completely free market with absolutely no regulation. He's trying to conjure up fear of both the "Swart Gevaar" and the "Rooi Gevaar". - htonl 00:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

"Serious of tubes"! Arguing a certain point of view is wonderful and all but if you're going to use lies in your argument then you have to ask yourself if you really should have that POV. Eg in his African Renaissance article (or was it the one on language policy in education) he says that African languages are primitive and don't have scientific words like English. He does know that almost none of the Scientific words in English are of Germanic origin, right? They have the Greeks, Romans, and Arabs to thank for that. No one "owns" Science or the Industrial Revolution, in the same way that none of our homonid ancestors "owned" fire, and the ancient Sumerians did not "own" writing, and ancient North Africans did not "own" the Iron Age; we are where we are today because they spread their knowledge and the freedom that it gave them. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 13:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Haha, what a ridiculous thing for the guy to say! English is the biggest mongrel of a language - and any "advancement" it has made is purely due to borrowing freely from other languages (Cappucino? Braai? Deja vu? Shongololo?). There was an article in The Economist about a year back about how Europe came to dominate the world for a while (it's obviously only a phase, Asia's on the rise, and the Egyptians were great long before the Europeans) simply because of the spread of wheat. So much for superiority! :) I for one think it's sad that "progress" squashes out other forms of human life - people weren't dying by the truckload of starvation in Africa until industrial capitalism arrived.. but perhaps this isn't the place for that discussion :) Joziboy 16:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Oops! I meant series of tubes! Okay, so we all agree then, Jan is a retard. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is another few articles about the face of racism in the new SA, please take a look at it http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20050219103803315C822723#jump

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060717013608931C182085

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060723084516410C321002

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060626032107791C241717

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw1150302961723B234

And then also corruption in SA by key government officials should be highlighted

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060715082042398C370544

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=276501&area=/insight/insight__national/

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=271798&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/ I think that enough for now , but I think SA is turning in to a world joke

Opps I forgot, the best one yet about crime !!!!!!!!

http://www.crimexposouthafrica.co.za/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.128.35.243 (talk • contribs) .

Yes, of course. South Africa was so much better during Apartheid. Do you know what the real joke here is? You - an annoying juvenile joke like an exploding toilet; kindly disappear and bless us real South Africans and Wikipedians with your absence. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 21:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. Apart from the first linked article (rioting at UP), which is admittedly disturbing, and the Crime Expo SA site, which is just plain ridiculous, the rest of those articles reflect merely a country which, like any other country, is imperfect. I could produce a bunch of articles about racial tensions and political scandal in, for example, the UK. What does that prove? Nothing. I wish these people would stop posting blather on the talk page, telling us what they think we should be writing about and what articles they think we should be reading, and instead start adding relevant, verifiable and NPOV information to the article. But I suppose that's too much to ask; so I guess I would be satisfied if they could, as you put it, "kindly disappear". - htonl 04:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you guy’s don’t see the difference between the trees and the forest.

On a case by case basis each individual claim is acceptable and tolerable , but in general problems in SA with regards to Racism , Crime and corruption is developing to such proportions that it will lead eventually to another failed state scenario , just like most other countries in Africa

From the outside looking into SA tings seem to heading in the wrong direction , an African phenomenon.

"Tings" are not heading in the wrong direction - you seem to forget just how low our starting position was. Apartheid was a base, cruel, animal system that crippled a few generations and will continue to have effects for the immediate future. Most consider what we've achieved in these twelve years to be miraculous. As for crime - crime stats are always higher in countries that are going through a transition, read any book on criminology. Joziboy 08:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

What's your point!? Why is someone living in Cleveland, Ohio so obsessed with trying to show just how much of a "shit-hole" (Volksgeist's favourite noun) the country is. Let me guess, it's becoming "another Zimbabwe", right? Doesn't it strike you as perculiar that none of the editors actually living in South Africa (the ones who are supposedly getting robbed, raped, and murdered everyday) actually agrees with you? And what exactly do you personally believe is the primary reason behind this hell-on-Earth (do tell)? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, It’s interesting that only 12 years into democracy , half , if not more of the cabinet has been implicated in some form of corruption and most of the parliament seems to be implicated to.

Also the ex deputy president saga ( now that’s really funny) corruption, rape ext ext………… The new deputy president, that wants land reform skills from Zimbabwe.

The president himself is implicated in corruption. That’s Africa for you!

Not to mention the problems with declining service levels and municipalities going the wrong way

Maybe you should put in the Article that SA is becoming a typical Africa state?

Oh my god, where to start? First of all, keep your snide little comments about "that's Africa for you" to yourself. Why is being an African country a bad thing? Most African states inherited colonial structures which were designed specifically for wealth extraction without infrastructure/human development - just look at the railway system at independence (from mineral-rich areas to ports to be carried to Europe, with nothing linking towns, schools, regions together). States were therefore weak and relied on resources rather than people (since education was never a priority, or developing a broad tax base), which the IMF then forced the states to privatise. But enough about the rest of the continent.

South Africa was obliged to pay off it's apartheid debt after 1994, despite the fact that it was racked up by funding the oppressive state. Despite that, we've managed to get the economy growing fast, extend housing, education, welfare. We've got one of the most respected constitutions in the world, have set a precedent for TRC's in other countries, and are doing so well that Tony Blair wants to extend the G8 to include us. Sure we have problems, but what country doesn't? Joziboy 09:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, and we're hosting the next Soccer World Cup, have the most traded developing-nation currency in the world, decreasing (albeit high) crime levels... is this enough to show that there's another side to your coin? Joziboy 09:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

“”Oh my god, where to start? First of all, keep your snide little comments about "that's Africa for you" to yourself. Why is being an African country a bad thing?””

Most states in Africa seems to on a down hill , that why , really embarrassing if you are from Africa , I would say

“” Most African states inherited colonial structures which were designed specifically for wealth extraction without infrastructure/human development - just look at the railway system at independence (from mineral-rich areas to ports to be carried to Europe, with nothing linking towns, schools, regions together).””

Now in the East , they had the same bad “”Colonization”” thing and yet most countries are advancing at a steady pace , take Vietnam , South Korea for instance, in spite of the gruesome past they are doing well, unlike African states, that not to mention India ,China, Singapore ext ext. Therefore your Colonization argument is nothing but a bad excuse to hide the ineptitude of African Governments .

“” States were therefore weak and relied on resources rather than people (since education was never a priority, or developing a broad tax base), which the IMF then forced the states to privatise.”” You have had 30 or 40 years to correct that , but still your governments all react in the same way , lot’s of talk and buzz words and no action.

“”But enough about the rest of the continent. South Africa was obliged to pay off it's apartheid debt after 1994, despite the fact that it was racked up by funding the oppressive state. Despite that, we've managed to get the economy growing fast, extend housing, education, welfare”” Your economy is not growing fast , it’s just keeping up with world growth at the moment , right there in the middle some where. Your current acout deficit is looking as bad as that of the USA proportional to your GDP. The good news is that your currency may collapse and then you might be able to compete with China and India in terms of labor rates The going rate in China for a factory worker is less than $100 us a month. How much is it in SA?

“” We've got one of the most respected constitutions in the world, have set a precedent for TRC's in other countries, Your constitution is only a nice bunch of words , looking more at the reality in SA your government is unable /unwilling to implement there own laws. I have noticed that in SA law and practice differs -------- see your corrupt leaders

“” and are doing so well that Tony Blair wants to extend the G8 to include us”” The G8 will not include SA until it’s a formidable part of the world economy . At the moment your economy only represents about 1% US economy What’s frightening is that the rest of Africa does represent about the same amount. Maybe with western companies developing oilfields in Angola and Nigeria that will change.

. “”Sure we have problems, but what country doesn't? Joziboy 09:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC) “” And they seem to be getting more and more , slowly spinning out of control

“”Oh yes, and we're hosting the next Soccer World Cup, have the most traded developing-nation currency in the world, decreasing (albeit high) crime levels... is this enough to show that there's another side to your coin? Joziboy 09:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC) “”

I heard the Germans were so Upset with the SA government’s inability to organize the event , that they offered to organize it for you Then there was that leak from FIFA that the USA will be the Back up plan for the World Cup , because no work has started yet and the infrastructure is not present to host the event .

Seems that this one is currently heading to be a embarrassment for Africa , not just the RSA

Decreasing crime levels ?

I read that your government refuses , is incapable of publishing them. On the same note , according to your local insurance brokers claims related to crime is on the increase , especially violent crimes.

Tell me If I am correct , I heard that about 20 000 south African are murdered a year, According to my info that would be putting SA on par with Iraq . Is this true ?

Urgh, I don't have the energy for this. You've clearly made up your mind that SA is a dump and that's fine. All of us who come from there or live there love the place and are very very bored of Afro-pessimism. Joziboy 17:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

There's a simple solution Joziboy, don't feed the troll. OK, he's not strictly speaking a troll, as he probably believes the stuff he writes, but the principle is the same :) Greenman 19:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey , I just reflecting what your own free press is printing. This is how the RSA is seen from the outside , it’s starting to look disturbing !!

[edit] Similarities between the Nazi regime compared to the ANC government in SA

Viewing SA from the outside from a safe distance I am disturbed to see a major philosophical comparativeness with the old Nazi regime in Germany “”Nazism was the ideology held by the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, commonly called the NSDAP or Nazi Party). The word Nazism is most often used in connection with the government of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945, also known as the "Third Reich". In terms of ideology, Nazism combines racialism, nationalism, anti-Semitism and anti-communism, and draws from a variety of other sources. Currently, Nazism is outlawed as a political ideology in modern Germany, as are forms of iconography and propaganda from the Nazi era. Still, remnants and revivalists, known as "Neo-Nazis", continue to operate in Germany and abroad.””

From the description provided in Wikipedia it’s easy to see the similarities , The ANC government in SA has started with racial policies similar to the Nazi party in the early years , fostering a new black nationalism ( instead of German nationalism) , and being anti European/people of European decent /”settlers” ( instead of anti-Semitism) , with an anti-western ( instead of anti-communism)

I suppose the “African Renaissance” is their version of the “ third Reich “

Similar to the old Nazi’s the South African government is telling business/sports organizations/ who they should employ ,how many of each group based on racial quotas.

I wonder if this is going to go the same road ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.128.35.243 (talk • contribs) .

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law: this discussion is therefore closed. YHL. HAND. - htonl 02:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That’s a shame , coping out of a nice discussion. Why don’t we try it from a different angle since this one seems to be politically incorrect for you ?

Moenie met die doos praat nie, asb! Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That’s a very rude line you just used , It took me a while but I did get a translation on it !!

I love afrikaans, in afrikaans calling someone a "doos" is a rather bad insult, but if you directly translate "doos" into english it becomes "box". So "Moenie met die doos praat nie, asb!" means in english "Please don't speak to the box" (Directly translated of course). In terms of actual meaning it really means "Please don't speak to the idiot". Just a small language lesson Jediwannabe 14:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime Expo SA URL Added

A link to the Crime Expo SA website is added to warn tourists about the dangers involved in visiting South Africa. Tourists need to be able to make an informed decision before visiting South Africa. It should be left to the individual tourist to decide for him / herself if they want to visit South Africa. Any tourist must have the freedom of information / freedom to choose. A tourist must have the option of obtaining unedited information. In the Crime Expo SA website, ordinary persons and tourists can tell their stories on their experience with crime in South Africa. Victims of crime can write about their experiences. South Africa is a wonderful country, but the high crime rate is a very big problem.

Tourist brochures only show beautiful pictures of South Africa. Crime Expo SA shows a “different” South Africa. A true experience of South Africa is somewhere in-between. The experiences of tourist visiting South Africa can differ from “absolutely wonderful” experiences, to “horrible” experiences. A tourist may leave South Africa with beautiful photos or they may leave in a coffin. This is the case for visiting any country in the world, but the crime rate in South Africa is very high and unacceptable. The crime rate in SA is higher than at some other tourist destinations.

[edit] URL DELETED

The URL (http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org/) was added and 2 minutes later it was deleted. Why do you want to withhold information from tourists? Tourists must note that there is people that delete any information that may provide negative information about South Africa, but that tells the truth (or that provide personal opinion).

or that provide personal opinion - we stay strictly away from personal opinion on wikipedia. Wizzy…☎ 12:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Tourist must have freedom of choice. There should be balance. Victims of crime should also be heard. Why are they silenced? Who is against victims of crime telling their stories? Please restore the original text.

If a tourist visits South Africa and become a victim of crime, do they have the right to tell their stories or do they need to keep quite? The person that deleted the URL does not want victims of crime to tell their stories, or hear the stories of other crime victims. For what other reason would it be deleted?

Personal opinions have no place here. Wizzy…☎ 12:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted it again, for the same reason as Shrensh. Please seek consensus here before adding it again. Thanks. --Guinnog 12:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the website some of the comments there sound slightly paranoid. some of them just seem like regular things in most countries. perhaps south africans are just overhyped about the rest of the world. Zazaban 06:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just deleted it again. I agree, while crime in South Africa is a serious issue, that website is just using scare tactics and is irrelevant to the article.Shrensh 07:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have some real stats about crime in SA: maybe they should be added instead? -- Chris Lester ^talk 15:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)