Talk:Second Coming

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	Second Coming is part of WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Seventh-day Adventist Church and Seventh-day Adventist Church-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
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WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church To-do: edit  Expand "Glacier View Controversy" section, to include more background, history, theological issues, and details of the Glacier View meeting itself Add to "Adventist Responses to Criticisms" section, ideally with material from Adventist scholars etc.

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The Buddy Christ? Really, now.

If wikipedia is to dengerate to the most ignorant level and have fools editing important pages - that are esp uneducated fools with no knowledfge of the subject ... then what is wikipedia.... mostly bs pages weakly composed and with weaker still content. As some fool edited out my expert adds etc , Jerome.

Isn't Maitreya like the 7th coming of Buddha? how does he fit into Second Coming, then? Mydotnet

Contents 1 Bias 2 Nostradamus 3 Confusion about Christian Outlook 4 Article cleanup 5 most biblical sources irrelevant 6 Islam 7 Second coming? 8 Bahá'í Comment 9 Shall not taste death 10 Islam 11 "Second"??? Who is counting??

[edit] Bias

This page is about 1/3 fundamentalist evangelical religious propaganda.

prepares the delete button::

Hope no one minds too much.

I agree, it's actually kind of funny to read. Having many equally unencyclopedic propaganda somehow balance this out. I'm about to start on a deleting/changing frenzy. Cuñado - Talk 02:33, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. This purpose comming event is a mayjor mental and/or sociallogical causality factor, or at least regligious folk's expectancy is, so it warrants documention. Do ya agree to that assertion? Zarutian 00:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't saying to delete the page. Of course the second coming is important. But the page was full of propaganda. Cuñado - Talk 02:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Well I hope you are good at boiling out biases in articles Zarutian 00:44, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nostradamus

I think nostradamus' prediction regarding year 1999 was not the second coming of christ but the coming of some new king --128.214.200.98 09:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Like the birth of the Antichrist? ^rossnixon 10:33, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion about Christian Outlook

Maybe some kind person would be able to clarify Christian outlook concerning the second coming. My understanding is the Christians claim Jesus returned to earth shortly after his death and execution, spending time with many of his closest associates. Why then do Christians talk about a second coming as if this were some as yet unfulfilled prophecy? Why do they insist he has to appear yet again, and if he did wouldn't this be (according to their views) a third coming? --Philopedia 23:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The claim is not that he returned to earth after his resurrection from death. He was still here on earth for 40-50 days following. The "second coming" has many associated "apocalyptic" events - which clearly have not yet occurred ^rossnixon 01:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, Messianic prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.209.78.19.42 17:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

There's actually a lot of debate within the Christian community concerning this. For the most part, Christians agree on the idea that Christ is going to return a second time to judge the world based upon His promise at the ascension. The debate concerns the seven year tribulation (whether it's literal or figurative) and the 1000 year reign of Christ.

But, just so you understand, the Christ we see after the resurrection but before the ascension is NOT the second coming. The promise of the second coming was given just before the ascension, so Christ would not promise He would come again AFTER he had already done it.

[edit] Article cleanup

I've started a major cleanup of this article, merged info from the article Parousia, and moved related concepts from other religions to the See Also section. I've left the cleanup tag, because there is still more work to do. --JW1805 (Talk) 04:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] most biblical sources irrelevant

most biblical sources at the beginning of the article refer to assension to heaven or the kingdom of god, not the second coming. check them out. unless i don't know of some kind of connection between all those that makes them the same. even if some kind of logic makes the same it has to be addressed. without it, they are logically different things.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.76.99.106 (talk • contribs) 04:10, April 20, 2006.

It is relevant because that was when He promised to return.

[edit] Islam

He will then wage a battle against the false Jesus or Dajjal, break the cross, kill swine and call all humanity to Islam.

Just to be sure: is "swine" here to be taken literally as the link suggests? That's pretty harsh. "To do: descend from heaven. Battle Antichrist. Kill all the piggies." Weregerbil 11:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The idea that Jesus was replaced by a duplicate is the opinion of Muslim scholars. The Quran does not say anything about a duplicate. All it says is that it was made to seem like Jesus had been crucified but that anyone who thinks they can kill Jesus is fooling themselves. It also states that Jesus was taken up to God to await for the appointed hour of his return. It does not state that his physical body was taken to heaven either. Nmentha 21:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved that section from the main article to a non-Christian view section (see comment below about Bahai as well). The resson being that the second coming is commonly referred to as a "Christian" belief and Christians do not look outside the Bible for support or theories. The Bible would consider these other (Islam or Bahai) to be false teachers and their beliefs heresy. Although I am not debating the other beliefs, I do think this part should not be in a Christian belief, I decided to keep it and do a section for non-Christian views. Maniwar 20:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second coming?

If we read Paul literally, there is a distinct impression that this will be Jesus' First and only coming. For example, the following:

• Philippians 1:6 "The One (i.e. God) who started the good work in you will bring it to completion by the Day of Jesus Christ."
• Philippians 3:20 "We are citizens of heaven, and from heaven we expect our deliver to come, the Lord Jesus Christ."
• 2 Thessalonians 1:7 "(God will send relief to us) when our Lord Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in blazing fire".
• 1 Peter 1:7 "...so that your faith may prove itself worthy when Jesus Christ is revealed."

These examples are due to Doherty; I don't presume to edit this article, but wish to mention it. Perhaps a "Controvesies" section would be worth adding?

[edit] Bahá'í Comment

I'm not sure if Todd unt's comment is appropriate in this section. Any other thoughts on this?: Followers of the Bahá'í Faith believe that the second coming of Jesus, as well as the prophecies of the 5th Buddha and many other religious prophecies of a second coming, were fulfilled in Bahá'u'lláh. They commonly compare Bahá'u'lláh's fulfillment of Christian prophecies to Jesus' fulfillment of Jewish prophecies, where in both cases people were expecting the literal fulfillment of apocalyptic statements.

It is commonly understood that the second coming is "Christian" and that it is the forward look for Christ return and not some other deity or god in another religion outside of Christianity. Although I'm not challenging the belief, I am questioning its placement in the "Christian" second coming. I considered removing it, but wanted other coments. Maniwar 20:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved this section to a non-Christian view section. The point being that as pointed out above, the second coming is commonly referred to a "Christian" belief and Christians do not look outside the Bible for support or theories. The Bible would consider these to be false teachers and their beliefs heresy. I still think it should not be in here, but decided to do a section for non-Christian views. Maniwar 20:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Baha'is do believe that Christ has returned in the personage of Baha'u'llah, and there are many books on the subject including Hugh, Hushidar. Ed. D Motlagh I Shall Come Again: Time Prophecies of the Second Coming, Vol. 1. ISBN 0-937661-16-3. and Sears, William (1961). Thief in the Night. London: George Ronald. ISBN 0-85398-008-X.. The Second Coming is not only Christian; Muslims also believe that Jesus will come back after the end times, and Baha'is believe that those prophecies regarding the Second Coming in both Christianity and Islam have been fulfilled. That you state that forward look for Christ return and not some other deity or god in another religion outside of Christianity is a specific POV. In many places in the Bible Christ says that he will have a new name. So your statement that what the Bible considers these to be false prophets is a decidedly Christian POV, and Wikipedia is striving for NPOV. The paragraph should definitely stay. -- Jeff3000 21:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Again I'm not challenging the Baha' philosophy, but about your POV statement...go and ask just about anyone, "Do you believe in the second coming?" Generally speaking, this is unique to Christianity and that person would assume you are talking about Christianity. For example, in order for a "second" coming to occur, there would have to have been a first. The Baha'u'llah has not had a first coming. Although I do challenge your comment on the Bible stating Jesus will have a different name when He returns, that does not mean He will be a different person. Generally speaking, the second coming is unique to Christianity, although more recently, I will agree, 'some' religions have adopted a 'second coming' variation, yet this has been a basic foundation of the Christian religion from day one. All the others seemed to have morphed into it. Now, if the Baha' (and this is not to bash them, but question them) believe in Christ's return, how do they answer the images of Revelation where Christ is visible and audible in His return? Also, back to another question, where does it say He will come as some other religion's diety in the Bible? Also, why is it that the 2.1 billion Christians do not share the same sentiment as the (roughly) 6 or 7 million Baha'. Would that not be a shared thought if that was Christ's prediction of His second coming? Good discussion. Maniwar 13:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually if you ask a Baha'i if they believe in the Second Coming, they would say yes, and if you ask a Muslim, they would also say yes (the difference being that Baha'is saying that Jesus has come back, and Muslims say not yet). Baha'is believe that the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment in Christian religion, and the many Christian people who accept Baha'u'llah believe they have fulfilled Jesus's covenant. In regards to your questions about how and why Baha'is believe in Baha'u'llah's fulfullment of Biblical prophecies of the Second Coming I would suggest you read the books I noted above (since Wikipedia is not a forum) and all your questions will be answered. They go into detail about the Biblical prophecies regarding the Second Coming (especially why most Christians haven't accepted Baha'u'llah, which BTW was predicted in the Bible). Regards. -- Jeff3000 13:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Christ's Second Coming

[edit] Shall not taste death

The article at present reads as follows: "Another verse is more explicit: "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27). This reference is related to the disciples who saw Him transfigured on the Holy Mount." This last sentence seems most difficult to justify in that Mathew 16:27, i.e the verse immediately preceding that quoted, says -"For the son of man will come in the glory of his father, with his angels: and he will render to every man according to his works", i.e the context of 16:28 is not the transfiguration but Christ's second coming. It does not appear to relate to the transfiguration account which follows this passage, i.e Math 17:1~, because that happened only six days later whereas "those who shall not taste death" indicates not a short period but something significantly longer. I understand that this verse is the cause of much discomfort with some Christians because it seems to confirm that the imminent return of Jesus is a failed prophecy and this cannot be accepted under any circumstances. As wiki is neutral and not a platform for apologetics I suggest that the sentence beginning "This reference is related to the disciples who saw him transfigured on the Holy Mount" be removed. Any objections? 24 September 2006 5.02pm

Yes. The sentence should be modified to state that "One attempt to explain this has it referring to the Transfiguration which occurred only six days later". If I find a better explanation I will post it here. ^rossnixon 01:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's a more likely explanation. It fits better with statements like "The Kingdom of God is within you". The reference is not to his final coming to judge the world, but to his spiritual coming to establish his kingdom. This was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Mark (9:1) shows the meaning by substituting, "Till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." The "coming of the Son of man in his kingdom" means, therefore, the same as "the kingdom of God come with power." Compare Acts 1:8, and Luke 24:49. The kingdom came with power on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1). ^rossnixon 02:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope. The gospel writers especially Mark and Matthew equate it with the crucifixtion. I will write this up for the article and will supply the quotes and evidence there. But I wouldn't want to remove the examples of other confussing interpretations this passage has caused - I think they are quite revealing. :) --Just nigel 17:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islam

Here's a question, should the Islam section not be under the Predictions and claims of the Second Coming like all the other claims? Maniwar (talk) 01:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Second"??? Who is counting??

This article is titled Second coming but it never explains from where this number two comes. The section on Biblical origins does not have a quote that calls this the second coming.

We already have one person asking - "but I thought Christians beleive Jesus came back after his death", and another saying "but I thought Christians beleive Jesus only comes once" kind of like "eternally begotten"; so I do not think it adequately communicates what the (mainstream) Christian church teaches about Christ's retrun.

It would help to give this article a context in the broader theological area of eschatology which allows for a final coming, a last judgment, an ultimate realising of the reign of God before narrowing its meaning to those (Christians and / or Muslims) with a belief in a specific 'Jesus came once and he will come twice' chronology. But we still have the difficulty of the title. Mainstream Christian eschatology usually uses the time category of Kiaros (God's time, the fullness of time, the day of the Lord etc) rather than the time category of Chronos (Second coming, this after that, timetables of which year it will happen).

There should definately be a discussion of people who predict days times and years that Jesus will come again and confussion over the statement of Jesus in the gospels that this generation will not pass away before they see the son of man come in his glory ... but so too should there be an understanding that many mainstream Christians see this prophecy fulfilled in Jesus' death, they see the resurrected Christ alive and coming again and again to different people, they hear Jesus saying in the gospels to his disciples to have no part in setting calenadars or chronologies of when he will return and they see that the reality of his final coming is about the full realisation of God's reign and the ultimate act of justice/judgment.

I will have to continue to think about how best to incorporate this into the article. I think it needs a lot of work. --Just nigel 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)