Talk:Sarcasm

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Contents 1 Sarcasm and irony 2 Information from foreign-language edition of Wikipedia 3 Cynicism/Nihilism? 4 Positive? 5 Tongue-in-cheek? 6 "Double sarcasm?" 7 Cultural 8 Wow. 9 Irony mark 10 Written Sarcasm... 11 Asshole? 12 In the UK, writing has adopted the use of (!) (an exclamation mark in parentheses) following speech in which sarcasm or irony is perceptible via the tone of voice, a punctuation mark which is very reg 13 Added sarcastic comments 14 Sarcasm and Sardonism 15 Sarcasm and non-Anglo cultures 16 An unreferenced psychoanalysis?

[edit] Sarcasm and irony

Using sarcasm as a synonym for irony is clearly misuse- that's not what sarcasm means. Sarcasm is often ironic, and irony is often sarcastic, but the two are not the same. Calling irony which is not intended to hurt someone "sarcasm" is misuse.

The specific problem with this: This is often marked by eye-rolling and a particular vocal tone; however, many people consider sarcasm most humorous when they have some difficulty (at least initially) with telling if the person is being serious. Sarcasm is similar to tongue-in-cheek humor but has a slightly more negative connotation, where tongue-in-cheek has a more light-hearted slant. is that it all relates to irony, not sarcasm (you wouldn't use them with (or apply them to) non-ironic sarcasm, but you would use them with (or apply them to) non-sarcastic irony). Markalexander100 06:00, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I view sarcasm as a subset of irony. Could you give me an example of non-ironic sarcasm? -- Djinn112 19:13, May 5, 2004 (UTC)

Certainly: Bill is ugly. He says to his friend Ben : "I hope the girls won't fight over me at the party tonight". Ben replies

1. "That won't be a problem". This is sarcasm, but not irony (because it means exactly what it says). It wouldn't be spoken in the same tone as irony.
2. "Oh yes, that might be a problem". This is ironic sarcasm, or sarcastic irony. Spoken with an ironic tone of voice.
3. "Oh, that would be terrible". This is irony, but not sarcasm (because it means the opposite of what it says, but is not hurtful).
4. "That won't happen, because you're ugly".

Any clearer? Markalexander100 01:45, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying now, but I don't agree with you on that first example; I consider irony an essential part of sarcasm. I asked some people whom I know about this today, and they agreed with me, so I guess there's some debate on the definition of the word. I'll go note that in the article. -- Djinn112 02:14, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster has two definitions: "a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain"; "a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual". Neither of these requires that it be ironic. (MW isn't the only dictionary, of course, but if anything UK ones would be less tolerant of extended usage).

It might help to compare 1 with my new 4: 4 is not sarcasm, because it is a straight insult; 1 is sarcasm, because its indirectness makes it "sharp", or "caustic" as MW puts it. Markalexander100 02:21, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

None of my dictionaries require irony, either. Despite that, I and some people whom I know do, and there are probably at least a few more, too. I suppose it hinges on how you decide whether a part of langauge is correct; I call something correct if, in the context of the time, place, and situation, fluent speakers of the language find it normal and natural, rather than going by reference books. I don't know which view is standard on Wikipedia; I imagine the latter is more accepted among people in general, so I'll just go along with how you have it now. -- Djinn112 08:55, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

Note that Bill's initial statement to Ben is itself sarcastic (and self-directed), as well as ironic in intent.

The article should probably include the quotation (and popularly held belief) that "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".

User:64.180.83.171

Definitions found by define:sarcasm on google clearly include some definitons which *require* irony in sarcasm. Anyway, do a search, it's quite clear. The usage note was wrong, so I removed it, and added some clarifications to the definition.

A Google search is not a reference. Henry^Flower 21:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The Google search reveals an abundance of references. It shows that the definition is common. Also, if that was your only complaint, you reverted something that was not referenced to your standards to something that was both wrong and not referenced at all. ... right.

[edit] Information from foreign-language edition of Wikipedia

Anyone speak Danish — they appear to have a bit more than us.--ZayZayEM 14:30, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That would be German. ;) Most of the content is copied from us; the remainder focuses on distinguishing sarcasm from cynicism, which I don't think is really an issue in English. Mark¹ 02:28, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Cynicism/Nihilism?

Sarcasm is also regularly confused with cynicism, which in common use is seen as a fundamental nihilistic attitude toward other people and life in general

As I understand it, cynicism is a point of view stemming from the belief that all human endeavours are fundamentally selfish. Nihilism is a philosophy where everything is fundamentally meaningless. Can someone explain how the two are linked? Thanks, RishiAggarwal 17:11, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Positive?

"sarcasm can often be seen even as a positive way of thinking about things"

I can't imagine any positive aspect of sarcasm, at least not in definition (certainly one could claim humor was a positive thing, but that would be a different thing).

I disagree. Example: someone wins a lot of money on the lottery and says, "I think I'll buy that CD I've been wanting - if I can afford it." --Mintie 01:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's not sarcasm, it's irony. Mark¹ 03:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The part "if I can afford it" is ironic. But the first part: "I think I'll buy that CD I've been wanting" sounds to me more like sarcasm. Of all the things you could buy with money to mention only a cd player has certain sneering or mocking quality. Though I don't know if that still can be called positive sarcasm. -- Alatopi 18:36, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tongue-in-cheek?

I was redirected here from 'tongue-in-cheek', but it's been removed in a previous edit and even that was only a passing reference. I feel it's worth having some mention of it, but I'm not sure whether it belongs as part of this page (I personally don't consider it a form of sarcasm, but others may disagree), or on a page of its own. Any thoughts? - Coyote-37

I definitely think tongue-in-cheek requires its own page. It's quite different to sarcasm. However, Wikipedia is not a dictionary so I'm not sure how to sort it. --Mintie 01:37, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it deserves its own page as well. It needn't be very long, but could be more than a dictionary entry by listing a few popular examples of the type of humour (ie: An American Werewolf in London). I'm happy to do it myself, but prob won't have the time until the weekend. I'm happy for someone else to take the batton. btw, does anyone know where the phrase comes from? - Coyote-37

Have finally got round to creating this page as a stub, here. It's a potential one for the dictionary project I freely admit. Coyote-37 11:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Double sarcasm?"

I'm not buying this:

Recently, sarcasm has become so heavily used that it has become a self-parody, resulting in the phenomena of double sarcasm. In double sarcasm, a statement is said sarcasticly, but the individual is actually entirely honest in his or her statement, e.g. "this pizza probably tastes exactly like pizza hut."

It seems like original research to me. With 127 unique Google hits for "double sarcasm", yeah... It also seems to apply to some particular culture, without identifying which one. Is double sarcasm all the rage in, say, China, just now? -GTBacchus 23:40, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

On a personal note, I can say I've heard this used alot. However, I don't think it qualifies as sarcasm in such a case. It is still often used for mocking and jesting, like sarcasm is, but because of the meaning being the same as what is said, it appears to be something different from sarcasm. --ProdigySim 21:43, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

That would make it different from irony, not from sarcasm. The reason it shouldn't be in this article is because it's not a common term. Mark¹ 21:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural

Markalexander, why did you remove my cultural section?

It is common knowledge that the UK & the US have differing appreciations of sarcasm in everyday use, and that European sarcastic humour is usually lost on Americans.

You mention my example is ironic, not sarcastic and that sarcasm is always intended to give offense?

Because your example is ironic, not sarcastic and sarcasm is always intended to give offense. European ironic humour may be lost on Americans; sarcastic humour would be lost on them only if it is also ironic. Mark¹ 15:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree,

Saying "Why won't you come out, the weather is splendid" when there are galeforce winds and rain, is being sarcastic. Yet does not give offence to anyone. Where do you get this notion that sarcasm should always give offence?

My example was as follows:

An example of sarcasm would be as follows. A heartbroken person, who in an impressively solemn, sorrowful and tearful outburst to a group exclaims to be ready to give up his/her life for their heartbroken love of another. A highly sarcastic reply would be (in a mood lightening and jesting manner): "what's your life worth anyway?"

This is not ironic, it is sarcastic in that a.) It is offensive, yet b.) So obviously said in a light hearted manner as to break tension. There is nothing ironic about it. It is merely the product of sharp wit.

I may be wrong about this as I am not an English language expert, but I would like to see more concrete evidence denoting otherwise.

Likewise my section on Cultural bias:

Cultural It has been suggested that cultural influences may play a role in the usage, understanding and above all, appreciation of sarcastic comments. A common conception is that sarcasm as a whole is used and appreciated in everyday usage more commonly in the United Kingdom and western European countries, than in the United States. It is quite common for misunderstanings between English speakers from an American cultural background and those of a European cultural background to occur when sarcastic comments are not understood or appreciated. In more serious instances American speakers might even perceive offense, or an insult, from sarcastic comments by a European English speaker, where none were intended.

I still believe this to be correct and would like more evidence that proves me wrong.

Saying "Why won't you come out, the weather is splendid" when there are galeforce winds and rain, is being sarcastic. No, it isn't. It's ironic. Look it up in a dictionary. Mark¹ 21:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with mark, in denmark sarcasm is the main humor. I myself haven't grown up in Denmark and i think it very difficult to notice because it is used so often...

We're being honest, not sarcastic. Daniel A. A. 15:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wow.

This article is so good.

[edit] Irony mark

The French Wikipedia has an article on the point d'ironie – the irony mark. Perhaps some information from that article could be useful here. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 09:46, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Why? This is about ENGLISH sarcasm, not FRENCH.--211.74.4.35 17:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Written Sarcasm...

Of course, in general the use of <sarcasm> tags is actually indicating irony.

[edit] Asshole?

General question on sarcasm, does being sarcastic and cynical automatically make you an asshole? I am both and there seems to be a lot of people that think I'm an asshole, so does being sarcastic automatically make you one? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lightfight (talk • contribs) 00:34, April 6, 2006 (UTC).

Yes. 24.18.191.215 05:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes 24.211.161.77 16:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In the UK, writing has adopted the use of (!) (an exclamation mark in parentheses) following speech in which sarcasm or irony is perceptible via the tone of voice, a punctuation mark which is very reg

Wow, and I always thought those poms were yelling at me! Appologies to all the Poms I ever retaliated to. Factoid Killer 19:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added sarcastic comments

I expect they will be reverted :) Nimur 23:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it nice to have your expectations fulfilled? Henry^Flower 06:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

They will live on for all eternity in the history [1] ! Nimur 14:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sarcasm and Sardonism

Can someone expound (in the article, I guess) how these two would differ from each other? I have a good idea, but this isn't really one of my strength areas. Thanks in advance. Madmaxmarchhare 15:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The word is sardonicism. I always thought that sardonicism and facetiousness were two extremes in the concept of sarcasm. Sardonicism is the extreme 'bitey' humour associated with the root words that make it up (No, Really?), while facetiousness concerned the more light and playful uses ("Say Hello, Brian", "Hello Brian!"). Am I incorrect? --Thaddius 19:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction. My impression was that sarcasm was meant to be somewhat demeaning, while sardonicism was not meant to be so. I wonder if there's an expert we can call on for this? Madmaxmarchhare 17:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

You could always put up a 'needs attention from an expert' template. --Thaddius 18:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm always puzzled by the 'expert' template- the whole point of Wikipedia is that (for better or worse) we rely on sourcing rather than expertise to justify edits. Anyway, m-w, which is both a source and an expert, doesn't seem to indicate any difference: [2]. Henry^Flower 19:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think part of the idea in asking for an expert is that they should be someone that has a depth and breadth knowledge of the literature surrounding the topic in question and knows where to cull the specific information from. Afterall, all sources have been written down by _someone_, so saying that we're sourcing and not using an expert is contrary. In any case, there doesn't seem to be too much difference between the two according to [3], so.. I dunno, I guess they are fairly similar if this holds up. Madmaxmarchhare 18:17, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sarcasm and non-Anglo cultures

I'd like to see this entry include different cultures' use of sarcasm, or their lack of it. I've always heard that non-Anlgo cultures do not recognize sarcasm the same way native English-speakers do. I'm not sure, but I believe I've heard the Japanese mentioned as a people who don't incorporate sarcasm in their speech or humor as is common in the English-speaking world. So it's not something I know much about, but I am vaguely aware of. Even if I'm wrong, it might be worth a subhead to explain the misconceptions. Am I wrong to say that sarcasm is not a universal form of humor? --WWB 06:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An unreferenced psychoanalysis?

No, it was not. The connection between anger and sarcasm is quite well known. Even the quickest googling gives a few results:

"Beware of disguised anger such as in sarcasm or cruel jokes" [4]

"Anger is not violence. It is not screaming or yelling, and it is not sarcasm. These are merely mismanaged anger-driven behaviors." [5]

"Condescension, verbal aggression, criticism, contempt, and sarcasm can be subtler forms of anger that will also damage relationships and ruin careers." [6]

Dart evader 16:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Only the first of those sources really implies that "[a] person's disposition to sarcasm is sometimes viewed as a symptom of concealed anger" -- the others just say that sarcasm can be used to express anger, which seems implicit in "[s]arcasm is sneering, jesting, or mocking" from the beginning of the definition. Anyway, added it back in with the first reference. (tweaked the phrasing a bit)