Talk:Roma people

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To-do list for Roma people:	edit · history · watch · refresh
add IPA pronunciation for "Roma" at start of article summarize peer review into tasks for to do list compile population records by country Article in really poor condition, needs copyediting, needs a lot of work on citing sources as topic is controversial. There are (probably) no Roma nationals on Wikipedia so this article would benefit from collaboration of people skilled in googleing info out. Let's help Roma people get good and NPOVed encyclopedia entry. --Dijxtra 11:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC) I've been tinkering with it; mainly cleaning up style and removing unverifiable factoids. I took out the copyedit tag as well; please put it back if you feel it is still merited. Guinnog New articles on History of the Roma people and Roma society and culture have been created, so its time to expand those articles (I've copied the original sections) and prune the main article down to a reasonable size. Wachholder0 00:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC) The Roma Dance section needs a lot of editing; I began editing the grammar and spelling (etc) but I found that I couldn't really understand what the first sentence meant, so I stopped. If anyone has information on that section and knows how to write without making too many errors (in their grammar, spelling, and so on), please do.

[edit] Archives

For older discussion, see:

[edit] Statistics

With reference to statistic (on crime and other things): an interesting paper [Roma and Statistics] PDF on the site of the Project for Ethnic Relations. Among other things, "The Roma have been especially sensitive about data collection of any kind since it was used against them by the Nazis during World War II. More recently, figures purporting to show Roma misbehavior have been used by some governments as a basis for declaring the Roma unfit for citizenship." "Some who had opposed collecting more data on Roma now agreed that an increase would be appropriate, provided that the Roma themselves were involved in collecting data at the local level." "The participant recalled an OSCE meeting in Vienna in 1996, at which a representative from Bulgaria presented statistics revealing that Roma committed 35% of all criminal offenses in that country. No data were presented, however, on crimes committed by other minorities. Similarly, in Romania statistics were collected only on Roma, not on the other 14 minorities that reside there. Roma are also included in other categories that are the subjects of data collection, such as immigrants, stateless persons, minors, and criminals. The participant stated that one cannot escape the conclusion that sometimes the government wants to prove that the Roma are “more criminal” than the rest of society."

It also contains arguments for and against collecting more data on the Roman, discusses the question of whether Roma are so classified by self-declaration or external observation, discusses the reliability and usefulness of census data about the Roma, and refers to other potentially interesting documents, such as one called Roma and the Law: Demythologizing the Gypsy Criminality Stereotype. There is quite a bit more of possible interest here. I only skimmed it, but I recommend that whoever is working seriously on this article might want to read it more closely. - Jmabel | Talk 20:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another interesting document

Jirina Siklova and Marta Miklusakova, Law as an instrument of discrimination: Denying Citizenship to the Czech Roma East European Constitional Review, Volume 7, Number 2, Spring 1998. Besides the topic it overtly discusses (very interesting) it has some interesting comments on criminality in the Roma community: "The statistics on Roma criminality show that, although it is indeed high, the crime rate for this ethnic group is clearly influenced by the social circumstances of its members and has a different character from the criminality of the majority population. Misdemeanors, such as shoplifting, pickpocketing, and the like, prevail among Roma and, in addition, given the tradition of family solidarity, they often “justly share” their crimes. That is, it is quite common for a relative to confess to a crime because the real perpetrator has small children, has just gotten married, or is under threat of getting a stiff sentence because he is a habitual offender." - Jmabel | Talk 20:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roma or Romani?

Obviously, this article needs a lot of improvement. I am a gadžo myself, but I am also very interested in the history, culture, etc. of the so-called "Gypsies." I think Professor Ian Hancock's book We Are the Romani People really would help out this page a lot. I have read a good deal of the book and am taking a course in Romani Studies (taught by Prof. Hancock).

To begin with, I propose that this page be redirected to "Romani." According to We Are the Romani People (and other assertions by Prof. Hancock outside the book), "Romani" is the politically correct term as all Romanies (so-called "Gypsies" in Europe) would call themselves "Romani." However, they would not call themselves "RRom (Rom)." They (often) believe that "RRom" refers to Romani groups from other areas. Thus, for example, a Romanichal (Anglo-Romani) would consider himself a Romani and say that the "RRom" are the Hungarian Romani refugees that moved to the UK more recently. (This phenomenon applies to all Romanies, not just Romanichals or British Romanies). --Kuaichik 23:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit to not having a particularly informed opinion on this, but it is my sense that different scholars have different takes on this. Kuaichik, do you know with any confidence that what you are proposing represents a scholarly consensus on this, or are you basically presenting one scholar's view? - Jmabel | Talk 05:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

For my part, I will admit that my proposal does not represent a consensus (as far as I know). I am presenting only Hancock's view. I will see whether anyone else provides evidence backing this claim. However, I imagine it must be much more difficult to reach a consensus in a less-studied field like Romani Studies. --Kuaichik 02:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup. If nothing else, if we are basically following one person's view, we should be explicit about that in the text of the article. - Jmabel | Talk 22:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roma in Turkey

I'd just like to point out the Wikipedia policy called verifiability. It states that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Therefore, if reliable sources can be provided, then the claim can be in the article. I think that saying, "this number is inaccurate and my number is correct" is against the spirit of Wikipedia. We're all here to bulid an encyclopedia, and I think all views on a subject should be included. I propose that we give a range which provides both numbers to end this dispute. Any thoughts? —Khoi khoi 04:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the input. I would however like to point out that the research about the Roma population is very sparse and only recently. Basically, there was no such research until 2003. For this I do not see any need of using a source from 2000, which even not is a research document, but an attempt from a radio station to give an overview of many countries. Obviously, any figures from Turkey will be estimates, as the Turkish Republic does not have census on ethnicities. But we should base the estimates on reliable and recent sources, if such a source claims the number is below 2 million we should obviously include it. Folks, don’t get surprised if in a year time or so will have reliable academic sources estimating the number to the double of the current 2 million. Bertilvidet 08:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

According to this article [1] from the Turkish daily Hürriyet the figure is between 2 and 5 million. Is this source also considered as anti-Turkish? Bertilvidet 08:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

To Jemten/Celikokte/Celik Korsan: please stop creating new accounts and join-in on the discussion here. —Khoi khoi 18:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Creating fictional books to boost minority populations is not allowed on wikipedia. It is funny to see how people devote their whole lives to undermine turkish things.

Bertilvidet says "Folks, don’t get surprised if in a year time or so will have reliable academic sources estimating the number to the double of the current 2 million." So we build a proper encylopedia article by speculation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Celik Korsan (talk • contribs) 18:22, 23 September 2006.

The books are not "fictional", they are real. Still, it's not undermining anyone. —Khoi khoi 18:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Prove it. I am sure it is doctored by Bertil in his eagerness to hate turks. His reputation and troubled history with turkish editors show it is very likely indeedCelik Korsan

You can download the booklet from Bilgi University at [2], please take your time to look at it, it gives a comprehensive and compact introduction to the situation of Gypsies in Turkey. Hope it will raise the level of this debate. Is Bilgi University also anti-Turkish? Bertilvidet 11:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You know Celik, it really wouldn't hurt to assume good faith once in a while. I can't look up the title of the book as I do not know Turkish, but for another source see this article by Hürriyet. It says the figure is between 2 and 5 million—are they anti-Turkish as well? —Khoi khoi 18:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[Allow me to interject briefly] My apologies to Celik Korsan, whose comments I inadvertently removed when changing the heading of this section. I wasn't aware of my screw-up and didn't intend to remove them. Sorry. +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Disregarding the personal attackt I kindly ask to find a recent and academic source claiming the number of Romani in Turkey is below 2 million - not a 6 years old list from a Czech radio website. Bertilvidet 10:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If no such sources can be provided I will be bold and change the figure back to 2 million. I am aware that Hürriyet claims it is 2-5 millions - this might be correct, but I do not consider the article as a reliable academic source.Bertilvidet 21:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order

It seems funny to me that etymology is first on the page. Wouldn't it make more sense to put Population at the top, then history, then culture/society, and etymology somewhere below? -- TheMightyQuill 12:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Bertilvidet 21:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

done. --TheMightyQuill 16:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional representations of Roma

Once again, someone has added another non-notable example of a magical gypsy. Is this section really necessary or useful? Native Americans in the United States doesn't have a "fictional respresentations of indians" list, nor does African American culture. Perhaps we could just have the first paragraph and the link to Fictional representations of Roma, then let people go nuts? --TheMightyQuill 21:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, again. Fictional representations of Roma seems to be a perfect spawning ground. Bertilvidet 21:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. --TheMightyQuill 16:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone should talk about Roma in Slovakia and Bulgaria since these two countries are the states that contain the highest precentiles of Roma populations.Jeorjika 16:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Not mentioned in the main article nor the fictional representations article... but the author Piers Anthony (probably best known for the highly popular Xanth novels, among many others) featured Roma characters in several books of his "Incarnations of Immortality" series. The portrayal was highly positive, and was in fact the first time I ever heard of the term "Roma" or anything else about these peoples beyond the mostly negative stereotype images of travelling fortune tellers that steal. That said, I think I agree with The Mighty Quill's comments and will post this comment there as well. Murple 19:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Gypsy king"

The "gypsy king" is a popular part of folklore. Should there not be an article on it, or one with a more pc title? --MacRusgail 16:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Gypsy king is known as the "vajda" or "cigányvajda" in hungarian. Some historians think this is a genuine rank with proof from a year 1437 document, others say it is a 19th century invention of romantic novelists. Anyhow, the folk song "Esküszik a cigányvajda lánya" (The daughter of the gypsy king is getting married) is fairly well known in Hungary. 213.178.114.82 20:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles

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[edit] That picture

DoubleSpacing 21:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)That picture you use had a lot of argument on the talk page this year. I saw it many months ago. Now it is gone. Is this something you want us to not see?

I can't find 'verifiability' of this picture. That means it is not for Wikipedia. Why does it always come back? Keep putting it back and it is vandalism. Why not put no picture there if no picture is 'verifiable'?

This discussion is absurd. Unless someone goes to Greece themselves and asks the girls pictured what their ethnicity is, we can only ever have the photographer's description on the fact of whether or not they are Roma. And, assuming good faith, I think we should believe them. --Krsont 23:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

This argument (by "DoubleSpacing", who I suspect is our friend the "Wroclaw troll" returned to us) is beating a dead horse. Discussed and dismissed long ago. Check the archives if you're interested. +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

The article states "Most Roma in Latin America are Orthodox". Is this right? I would have assumed they were Catholic. 47.251.0.13 10:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

For that matter, the existence of Roma in Latin America is completely uncited. Can anyone actually verify there actually are Roma in Latin America at all? -- TheMightyQuill 00:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

There certainly are Roma in Latin America, but I would presume that they are mostly Roman Catholic. - Jmabel | Talk 04:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Pikeys" referred to as Gypsies in the 2000 Guy Ritchie film "Snatch"

I'm curious if anyone knows if the Pikey Gypsies (referred to as Irish Gypsies in the film) in the movie "Snatch" are a figment of the filmmaker's imagination or based loosely on the Irish Traveller Gypsies in the United Kingdom.

--71.146.101.150 21:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a discussion for the Talk page of a whole 'nother article. Irish Travellers, while similar to Roma in lifestyle, have separate origins and the two peoples are not related. The term "gypsy" in English unfortunately conflates all travelling peoples in common usage. CRCulver 21:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clans

We have one mention here of the Kalderash, but we don't seem to have an article on Roma clans at all, and the article clan does not even mention the Roma or Sinti. - Jmabel | Talk 05:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Tzigane" redirects here; for the composition by Maurice Ravel, see Tzigane (Ravel).

Shouldn't Tzigane redirect to Gypsy? -- TheMightyQuill 07:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is a terrible article

Of all the articles on wikipedia, the least sourced, most outrageous articles this has to be it!

I will help as much as I can but im tied with other articles at the moment.

Lets focus our energies into making this FA.S Seagal 19:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your words of appreciation for those of us who have been working on it for a long time now. I look forward to you actually making a contribution to the article and helping us make it FA. -- TheMightyQuill 01:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this article is pretty good, a bit long though.

[edit] Roma in Kurdish

The etymology section states that in kurdish the Roms are called Qereçí or Dom. This is however wrong as its the Doms thats are called Dom. Also Qereçí is actually a turkish word derived from the turkish Kara/Kere or Qere meaning black or dark, this reffers to the dark complection of the Roma. The actual kurdish word for the Roma is "Rom", this word is also, often in calssical kurdish litterature, reffering to the Turks.

I confirm the accuracy of the above comment. Bertilvidet 18:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion; Anti-Romanyism

It occurred to me that there seems to be no page specifically designated for the description of anti-roma persecution and discrimination. There are pages for Anti-Semitism, Anti-Polonism, Anti-Armenism; virtually all ethnic groups that have suffered from long-term discrimination and genocide have a page assigned to the description of its opposition. Why the same is not the case for the Roma I do not know. In any case, I think the level of persecution the Roma have endured, in it's varied forms, which in many places continues to this day, should have a separate page. Comments?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Myotis (talk • contribs) 23:20, 19 November 2006.

Antiziganism exists, though it is definitely in need of expansion. Be bold. -- TheMightyQuill 23:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

To a great extent persecution is bound up with the history though and the fact that they are considered foreigners most places they go, it might be a good idea to have a History seperately and have this article describing the general ethnicity including ethnic sub-groups, it seems odd to have a negative history and a positive history which surely is what you might otherwise end up with.--Lord of the Isles 14:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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