User talk:Quadell/copyright

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You write: "If a work was prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Federal Government, or of the State Government of California, as part of that person's official duties, then it is not copyrightable and is thus in the public domain." Does this mean that a court order like this one is in the public domain ? --84.139.58.18 12:37, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, court orders are in the public domain. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 20:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About aircraft drawings

I'm not an expert about these copyrights-related matters at all, but could you please explain?

Looking at the histories of Image:Bristol 198.jpg and Image:Bristol 223.jpg, once you put {unverified}, then changed them to {PD-ineligible}. I mean, I'm not so sure those drawings contain "no new creative content whatsoever" and are "not copyrightable". This concern came from a past discussion on ja.wp.

Once on ja.wp, a similar drawing scanned from an old publication of the aeronautical society of Japan, was rejected to be treated as PD and deleted after the discussion at village pump (link to the log (Japanese)). In this case, they regared it as copyrighted work (without doubts), and the discussion focused on whether or not the copyright is valid today, then the conclusion came: "No-go. The copyright might not be dissapered yet"...

So I'd like to ask you those drawings really are PD or not. If there are sources that assure these drawings are PD, please tell me thier existance (not necessarily show me all of them, because I'm afraid I cannot understand anyway...). Or, the nonexistence of the confirmation that they are copyrighted is the answer...? - Marsian // talk 2005-07-01 13:58:00 (UTC) - Marsian // talk 2005-07-02 03:24:44 (UTC) added

This is a very difficult case. The specifications themselves are not copyrightable, but the drawings might be. A judge might rule that when an artist chooses the thickness of a line, or the color, or the distance between separate views, et cetera, that that is creative content. Unfortunately, the only way to know for sure is if the creator were to sue, and a copyright judge were to rule on the case. This is a grey area, and I don't know for sure. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 20:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

1. What exactly does "published" mean? Printed in a book that was never sold? Put up for display at an exhibition?

   Good question. All I can find is this:

   "Publication" was not explicitly defined in the Copyright Law before 1976, but the 1909 Act indirectly indicated that publication was when copies of the first authorized edition were placed on sale, sold, or publicly distributed by the proprietor of the copyright or under his authority.

   That doesn't shed much light, I'm afraid. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 20:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

2. I understand an example of "no creative content whatsoever" would be photographs of paintings. Are there other examples?

   Yes. Browsing through Category:Public domain images ineligible for copyright show some good examples, such as Image:11gon.png, a simple shape; Image:Aliceroosblue.jpg, a color; or Image:2-methylbutane.png, a chemical formula. U.S. courts have also ruled that typefaces (fonts) are not "creative", so pictures of letters or numbers are not copyrightable. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 20:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

3. Alternatively, if a work was FIRST published in 2003 or later, even though it was created before 1935, it is still legally considered an "unpublished work". That doesn't sound right. Shouldn't it say "published in 2003" rather than "unpublished work"? Algae 17:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

   I know it's weird, but trust me, copyright is very unintuitive. The example you give would legally be considered an unpublished work, as crazy as that sounds. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 20:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

   Thank you very much for your answers. I suspect I am misunderstanding something. Is that some sort of special treatment for old unpublished texts so they never count as published and their copyright protection never expires? In other words: If a work was created before 1935 and published after 2003, it's "unpublished work", if it was created in 2003 and published in 2003, it is "published work"? If a pre-1935 work hasn't been published before 2003, can it ever be published? How? What are the consequences for copyright duration? And what law or treaty is responsible for this? What was the intention behind this? Algae 20:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could find an actual example, but I can't, so I'll make one up. Let's say I was digging in my backyard and I found an old trunk full of unpublished manyscripts. There's "Hamlet II: the Ghost's Revenge", a lost play by Shakespeare; "1920", by Hemmingway, written in 1920; and two poems with no information on their authors, one written in 1883, and one written in 1889. Are they in the public domain?

The Shakespearian play is, because Shakespeare died before 1935. The Hemmingway book would still be copyrighted by the Hemmingway estate, since he died in 1961. The 1883 poem would be public domain, but the 1889 one would presumably be copyrighted, although I would have no way of knowing who owns the copyright.

Let's say I published the 1883 poem and the Shakespearian play, and they were best-sellers, and the Hemmingway Estate published their book. Even afterwards, the play and the poem are still considered to be in the public domain, even though they were first published recently. If you wanted to re-publish them without my consent, and your lawyer said "No, you can't, because this was first published in the U.S. in 2005, so Quadell owns the copyright", your lawyer would be wrong and you should fire him. This is why previously-unpublished works that were first published after 2003 are still considered "unpublished" for legal purposes, even though they were obviously published.

Also note that Hemmingway's book, had it been published in 1920, would be in the public domain by now. But since it's still considered "unpublished", even though the Hemmingway estate published it in 2005, it's still under copyright. Hope this helps. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 23:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed explanation. So I take "unpublished work" in this context just means that points 5. and 6. (regarding unpublished works) apply!? I find the Hemingway case the most interesting one: It was published in 2005, but it is still considered unpublished – how can the copyright ever expire, and when? And if the estate had published it in 2002, what would be the difference? How long would the protection last? 2002+90 years? Oh, and which law/treaty do I have to check for this aspect of copyright law? Algae 23:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)