Talk:Qoigyijabu

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This article was the subject of a previous vote for deletion. An archived record of the discussion can be found here.

Redwolf24 00:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

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Erdini Qoigyijabu? Is this name for real?

Yes. It's spelled according to the Chinese system for spelling Tibetan, which looks weird to English-speakers. I think the pronunciation of Qoigyijabu is something like "choo-gee jah-bu", where the "g" is a hard g, and the "oo" is sort of like the ö in German phrases like "bitte schön". It would be cool if someone knowledgeable would add a IPA pronunciation guide. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 21:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

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This guy is the fake Panchen Lama chosen by the government of mainland China. The official Panchen Lama chosen by Tibet is someone else entirely!--Biff Dong 00:22, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

As a compromise to an apparent edit war, I am including the BBC News article link, with a suitably NPOV title on the Panchem Lama article's external links section, as I feel it is relevant there, and not relevant here. Please sort it out on the talk pages before any further revert war. Alf 01:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Now then, Ideally I think it is better placed at Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, 11th Panchen Lama. Discussion requested to be centralised at Talk:Panchen Lama. Alf 01:31, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 External Link : The truth the mainland Chinese government doesn't want you to know 2 Title change? 3 Call for Mediation 4 NPOV

[edit] External Link : The truth the mainland Chinese government doesn't want you to know

• The truth the mainland Chinese government doesn't want you to know...

Does anybody else think the external link above would be helpful? I have posted it to this article, but it was removed by Hottentot. Please give an opinion. I personally, believe that the link is extremely relavent to the article.--FT in Leeds 02:12, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the news article is fine, but I must admit the above titlte is very POV, I'm fine with how I left it as I see no problem refering to it by the same name as the BBC uses for the article. I personally do not mind discussing these three articles on individual pages, but I genuinely think we'd be better talking about them together, on one page. Alf 10:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Title change?

I think the title of this article is wrong. I suspect that the actual name of this person is Qoigyijabu, and that the "Erdini" is part of the title "Panchen Erdini". One often sees it written "11th Panchen [or Bainqen] Erdini Qoigyijabu", but this (I think) means "the 11th Panchen Erdini, who is named Qoigyijabu" rather than "the 11th Panchen, who is named Erdini Qoigyijabu. This view is also supported by this article, which says "Gyaencaen Norbu was selected as the reincarnate of the Tenth Panchen Erdeni" and says that his (full) religious name is "Jizun Losang Qamba Lhunzhub Qoigyijabu Baisangbu". We should probably move it. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 21:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it. -- ran (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that was fast! Ran fixed the major redirects here, and I fixed some of the minor ones. Thanks, Ran! - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 23:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Call for Mediation

I would like to resolve this revert conflict over the wording of the opening paragraph. I am strongly in favour of removing text that skews the article towards a POV, where others disagree on this issue. Since you guys are "obviously" far more familar with Wikipedia than I am, I call upon you to deal with it. (This comment added by Phanatical · Demi ^T/_C 18:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC))

Before requesting mediation (which you can do at WP:MEDCAB if you'd like), you may try an article RFC: WP:RFC, which can attract the opinions of others. I encourage you to discuss objections on this page, keeping in mind such principles as WP:NPOV and good editing practices like teaching the controversy and the three-revert rule. Thanks! Demi ^T/_C 18:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, I am a Buddhist outside of China that recognises Queji Jiebu as the legitimate Panchen Lama. The article is skewed by implicitly suggesting that only the People's Republic recognises Queji Jiebu, and that nobody else does. Perhaps the phrasing in both This article, and that on the fake Panchen Lama should be reconsidered as to appease both sides.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phanatical (talk • contribs) .

It seems to me that the clause in question, or something to similar effect, is necessary in order to maintain NPOV. To say that "Qoigyijabu is the 11th Panchen Lama" is a deeply controversial statement, because many people believe that Gedhun Choekyi Nyima is the 11th Panchen Lama. How would you like to change the wording? I don't think the current phrasing is meant to imply that only the People's Republic of China believes Qoigyijabu is the Panchen Lama. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 19:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I think there's an NPOV problem with the opening. The opening claims that he is the Panchen Lama by virtue only of the PRC government's choice. While I can't speak for the lamas in Tibet, they at least nominally accept him as the Panchen Lama. While it may be difficult to say whether this is genuine acceptance, it is certainly POV to presume that it is not genuine.

I don't know how to rephrase it so as to eliminate this, which is why I'm putting it on the talk page for experts to consider. --Sumple (Talk) 12:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the opening sentence, taken directly, presents an NPOV problem. It says, "Qoigyijabu ... is, according to the government of the People's Republic of China, the eleventh incarnation of the Panchen Lama of Tibet." It doesn't say that only the PRC calls him Panchen Lama. However, now that two editors have stated the opinion that it implies a biased position, we should take that seriously. However, I'm not sure either how best to rewrite it. It's worth noting that the wording in this article is quite equivalent to that at the beginning of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima: "Gedhun Choekyi Nyima ... is, according to the Government of Tibet in Exile, the eleventh reincarnation of the Panchen Lama." Neither article gives the hopeful's religious endorsements in the first sentence (although the GCN article does mention the Dalai Lama in the second article). On the other hand, the difficult thing is that it is unclear exactly what Qoigyijabu's religious bona fides really are, because the identity of the Panchen Lama is such a sensitive subject inside the PRC that anyone of any relevance there is effectively under duress. Moreover, I imagine the large majority of relevant people (lamas and other influential Gelukpas) in the PRC go out of their way to avoid expressing any opinion on the matter. The way I see it, they have nothing to gain: even if a given lama is convinced in his heart that Qoigyijabu is the real Panchen Lama, he's better off keeping a low profile unless he wants to be seen as someone closely tied to the government.

I suppose we could point out more prominently the fact that Qoigyijabu was identified (or, rather, he was placed on a shortlist which was later narrowed down by lot) by a search party more-or-less representing the labrang of Drashilhünbo monastery. On the other hand, where we mention that, we should also mention the fact that Chadrel Rinpoche, the leader of the search party and the abbot of the monastery, went to prison specifically for supporting the other candidate.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 23:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

For reference, here is the first sentence of this article in the Chinese language version, which one might expect to have a slightly different POV balance: "確吉杰布（ཆོས་ཀྱི་རྒྱལ་པོ་ Chos kyi rgyal-po 1990年2月13日生于西藏自治区那曲地区嘉黎县），原名（俗名）坚赞诺布，是中國政府1995年11月29日在西藏拉萨大昭寺释迦牟尼佛像前经金瓶挚签仪式確認的藏传佛教十一世班禪喇嘛，取法名吉尊·洛桑强巴伦珠确吉杰布·白桑布，繼承確吉堅贊班禪之位。"

This (being a typical run-on sentence) means roughly: "Qoigyijabu (etc. etc., born Tibet Autonomous Region, Nagchu Prefecture, Lhari County), original name Gyaincain Norbu, is the {by the Chinese government confirmed on November 29, 1995 before Lhasa, Tibet's Jokhang Temple's Shakyamuni Buddha statue following the lottery of the Golden Urn as} Tibetan Buddhism's eleventh Panchen Lama, taking the dharma name Jizün Losang Qamba Lhünzhub Qoigyijabu Baisangbu and inheriting the place of Panchen Choekyi Gyaltsen." I put a clause in {} brackets in order to roughly preserve the order of the original.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 23:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

(comment) Well, the Chinese article does not necessarily represent a pro-Chinese-government POV. The fact that this article was written in Traditional seems to indicate that it is more likely to have been written by a Hong Kong/Taiwan/overseas author, whom you wouldn't expect to have pro-PRC-government biases. --Sumple (Talk) 03:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

That's true. It's not so much that I thought it would be neutral as I thought it might present a different POV which we can compare. Chinese material on the Panchen Lama, at least, is likely to derive from Chinese-language sources, whereas most other versions are likely to be translated from the English. Unfortunately, when I checked the Chinese article on Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, I found it to be significantly less NPOV than the English version, so it appears the comparison is not really of much value.

That said, if no one has any constructive suggestions on how to improve this article, I don't think we should leave the NPOV tag on indefinitely.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 17:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)