Talk:Prognathism

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That's about the dumbest stuff I've heard in a while. W-aaay outside. deeceevoice 20:13, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Is this guy SERIOUS?????

Yeah, this takes a giant stab at wikipedia's credibility.... Damien Vryce 18:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 So Jay Leno's Negroid? 2 Are you on drugs? 3 How on earth did "prognathism" become defined here as pathological? 4 Prognathism is least in Mongoloids, not Caucasoids 5 Outdated racist pseudo-science 6 Obsolete, discredited, and made-up human classifications 7 Layout 8 Terminology 9 Contradiction 10 Blatant Eurocentrist bias countered by new version 11 A dental term 12 Edit warring

[edit] So Jay Leno's Negroid?

This is bull. --Vehgah 06:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

LOL

Note that prognathism of the type Leno exhibits -- mandibular prognathism -- is not considered a trait common among Africoid populations. Read the text again. Deeceevoice 13:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are you on drugs?

What the hell is this? Since when does this kind of bizzare stuff make it into an "encyclopedia". My kids use this website at school. Hardly quality academic reading!

You should warn your children (and their schoolteacher) to use Wikipedia with caution. Each article is merely a consensus of some people who are interested in the topic, no matter how ignorant or ideologically motivated they may be. Usually this reflects scholarly knowledge, but sometimes it does not. The "African American" article, for example, contains two egregious known factual inaccuracies. In that particular case falsification by the article's editors is evidently meant to support ethnic solidarity. In all such cases attempts to correct ideological fraud or ignorance with facts from peer-reviewed academically accepted sources are swiftly reverted. Frank W Sweet 12:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How on earth did "prognathism" become defined here as pathological?

This article started out as something reasonable. It very clearly stated that prognathism is a tell-tale phenotypical trait of Africoid peoples. Now I return to find the flat profiles (of whites) defined as "normal" -- meaning, I suppose, that the majority of humankind (black people in Africa, Australia, New Guinea, the Indian subcontinent -- and a whole lot of Asians -- including a lot of Latinos) are abnormal. So, whites are "normal," and a good chunk of the majority of humankind is implicity "abnormal"? I have to believe this was deliberate, given the information already provided to the contrary. It stinks of racism. I've made the changes. It may not be perfect, but at least it's accurate. deeceevoice 19:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I would have to agree with the point that prognathism is defined as normal in many cases, but may also occur as a result of other conditions in those not born with this facial shape. See "Common Causes" [1]. It would be helpful if edits could be discussed without resorting to suggestions of racism -- its quite possible that misunderstanding or lack of in-depth knowledge could be the cause -- we don't need to jump to conclusions. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 16:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The insertion of disinformation about prognathism being pathological and abnormal by inference was a deliberate reversal of factual and sourced information already presented to the contrary. It was there for anyone to read, so, IMO, the changes were not likely the result of ignorance. Deeceevoice 17:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Finally, the material repeatedly has been edit-warred back to a eurocentric and, IMO, racist version without any attempt at justification (see below for a further discussion of what is wrong with the eurocentric version[2]). This indicates to me, if not racist intent, certainly bad-faith and deliberate, calculated disruption. deeceevoice 03:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prognathism is least in Mongoloids, not Caucasoids

The article was wrong, prognathism should be least in Mongoloids, not Caucasoids. Caucasoids like in most biometric results lie between Negroids (Africoids) and Mongoloids. I added the classic human skull diagrams of all three races for comparison (appropriate considering the use of prognathism in determining race). Mongoloids are not stereotyped of having a "flat face" for nothing.

Yes, absolutely correct. I'm not sure which language you're referring to, but I realize that I may have referred to prognathism in "Mongoloids," while thinking "Asians" (as in Southeast Asians). Genetically more Asian than African, some blacks in Southeast Asia and, actually, nonblack ("Mongoloid"), but often dark-skinned, Asians of places like Indonesia and Cambodia, for example, do, indeed, have facial prognathisms). But, then, there are acknowledged faciocranial differences between these (sundadont) populations, who are more noticeably mixed with the aboriginal Negritos of the region, and the (sinodont) Asians of the Far East. If that was my error, sorry for my mental glitch.

Someone added that maxillary prognathism was common in Caucasians, when it most assuredly is not. The feature pointed to is not considered prognathism. In the Caucasoid rendering, a virtual plumb line can be drawn from the bridge of the nose through the root of the nose at the top of the upper lip, through to the chin (make an upward extension to the bridge of the nose of line a in the "zygomatics" a-b line). This is the flat Caucasoid aspect that does not evidence maxillary prognathism -- not the point where the upper teeth are. I've removed it from the sentence. Deeceevoice 08:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I just came across something on the web that says otherwise. I don't know if my earlier statement which was challenged was occasioned by something I actually already knew or, as I assumed above, a misspeak of sorts. But phenotypically in this regard, it appears that Mongoloids do have moderate prognathism, being an intermediate between Negroids and Caucasoids in this regard.[3] In retrospect, I recall seeing one of those magazine-format shows on television in which the cranium of a murdered woman was found. I immediately noted a prognathism and, without noting any other characteristics thought, "black." But the talking head said the subject was either black or possibly Latino/Native American -- presumably also based on the alveolar prognathism. Deeceevoice 03:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outdated racist pseudo-science

"The modern urge to describe humans on a new, explicitly scientific basis took many, often strange, forms in the nineteenth century. For example, the science of phrenology, whose heyday was between 1820 and 1850, and later racial anthropological physiognomy, attracted many followers. That man's physical and, by extension, moral, intellectual, and social development, could be determined by, and seen in, his physiognomy -- in, say, jaw structure and shape of the head-- were to many respected sciences that enjoyed wide currency. (When the archvillain, Moriarity, meets his adversary Sherlock Holmes for the first time, Moriarity's immediate comment was, "You have less frontal development that I should have expected.") After Darwin popularized the idea that humans are descended from apes, the prognathous (protruding) jaw became a sign of lower development and of a closer relationship to primitive man. It also became the basis of much racial stereotyping of the Irish, and racial anthropologists argued that working class people were more prognathous than their social superiors- who were- self-flatteringly described as also biologically superior.

In his very influential book, The Races of Man (1862), John Beddoe, the future president of the Anthropological Institute, emphasized the vast difference between the prognathous (protruding) and orthognathous (less prominent) jawed people of Britain. These were terms originally The Irish, Welsh, and significantly, the lower class people, were among the prognathous, whereas all men of genius were orthognathous. (Beddoe also developed an Index of Nigressence, from which he argued that the Irish were close to Cro-Magnon man and thus had links with the "Africinoid" races!) These activities were reminiscent of Pieter Camper's theory of a 'facial angle'. One should emphasize, however, that such craniological and anthropometric studies "always represented a minority" of the papers presented at the Anthropological Institute, 1871-1899.

These late nineteenth-century anatomical and anthropological descriptions of 'races' and their characteristics, measurements etc. were later the inspiration for the sort of mid twentieth-century racial anthropology as promulgated in Nazi Germany."

See Lorimer, "Theoretical Racism in Late-Victorian Anthropology, 1870-1900 CoYep 19:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, racial phenotypes are those characteristics that most distinctively differentiate groups of like populations from one another. Prognathism is one of those characteristics. Argue with the anthropologists and the forensic scientists who still use prognathism to determine ethnicity in unidentified human remains. Certainly, the version of this article which defines prognathism as some sort of malformation or result of disease is far more racist than taking note of naturally occurring differences among human phenotypes. Deeceevoice 22:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Do we have any citations of anthropologists doing this in the modern era? Justforasecond 01:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

"Outdated, racist pseudo-science?"? Hardly.

• "Modern craniofacial anthropometrists (forensic anthropologists) give more importance to prognathism than to skin tone [in the determination of race]...." - from "The Heredity of 'Racial' Traits: Essays on the Color Line and the One-Drop Rule by Frank W Sweet, December 15, 2004"[4]

The above usage conflates two different meanings of the word "race." The above sentence refers to the appearance-based endogamous groups of U.S. society. A forensic anthropologist can determine from a skull's craniofacial anthropometry whether the person would have been seen as "White" or "Black" by U.S. society. Such a determination is not possible in Puerto Rico, Brazil, Senegal, Chad, Ethiopia, or for that matter most places outside the U.S., because they lack appearance-based endogamous groups. It works in the U.S. because for four centuries U.S. society has succeeded in maintaining two endogamous groups on the basis of physical appearance. This social meaning of "race" should not be used to support the notion of biological "race" in the sense of breed, variety, or subspecies. No one has yet been able to categorize H. sapiens into groups such that inter-group variation (physical differences between groups) is greater than intra-group variation (differences between sub-groups within the groups). For an interesting discussion of this, see the exchange between William (another student of molecular anthropology) and myself starting at http://backintyme.com/ODR/viewtopic.php?t=1337?start=6427#6427. Frank W Sweet 12:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Rather than respond to a single entry (which I merely quickly skimmed for key words), address the central question here: is prognathism used to determine race/ethnicity by modern anthropologists? The answer is a resounding "Yes!" (See below.) :p Deeceevoice 19:36, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem was in how you defined "race." Since you have now clarified that you mean ethnicity (voluntary group socio-political self-identity), then I agree that the answer is "yes." But the easiest way of measuring this is not by skull measurement, but simply asking the person how they self-identify. That way, you will get correct (and different) answers from Hispanic-Americans, Arab-Americans, and Native Americans despite their having identical measurements. Frank W Sweet 20:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't define race at all. And, no. I'll not play word games with you. The information provided in the links below speaks for itself. And I'll thank you to keep your questions about drug use to yourself. The information provided in the article is accurate. Prognathism is used as a metric to assign racial identity. 20:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

If you did not want to "play word games" with me, then you should not have quoted me out of context. Regarding "drug use," I have no idea what you are talking about. Your heartfelt belief in the "race" notion coupled with your inability to define it consistently make this conversation pointless. Quote me out of context again, however, and I shall return. Frank W Sweet 22:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

First, my apologies. I was looking at the edit history and when reading your comments posted under someone else's subhead, read the subhead as your edit note to a comment made to me. (I've been at my computer, crunching deadlines seriatim since 4 a.m., and taking wiki breaks to relieve the tedium, so I admit to being a little punchy. My bad.)

"I shall return"? What's with the MacArthur impersonation? Woo-ooh. I'm shakin' in my shoes. :p Seriously, though, I just noticed that you are the guy from the website. (At first, I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.) My sincere apologies if I misquoted you. Again, I did a quick search for "prognathism" along with a combination of words likely to yield results in various disciplines. The reference to that particular website, as with the others below was done quickly and, I admit, not thoroughly. Toss it out. Fine. And JFAS still has a response to his inquiry. Prognathism is a metric used today -- and very effectively -- to determine racial/ethnic identity across a number of disciplines.

Finally, you are hardly sufficiently familiar with my thoughts on the matter to characterize what I believe with regard to the notion of race. Further, I have not attempted to define race herein at all. My purpose has been to define "prognathism" within the context of the article -- and, again, it is a characteristic common to Africoid peoples -- that is, peoples indigenous to the African continent. In short, black people. Prognathism (and the accompanying characteristics) is how Susan Anton, the lead person on the American team in the reconstruction of King Tut's skull, identified the skull as belonging to a "North African" without having a clue to its age or origin (contrary to the French and Egyptian teams). (And, no. Hawass lied. She never characterized the skull as "Caucasoid." :p) Deeceevoice 23:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• A manual for an online course in forensic anthropology [5] (Note the table about a third of the way down the page.)
• [6]"Criminalistics: An Introduction to Forensic Science"
• [7]"Introduction to Biological Anthropology: Human Variation and Biological Classification"

From a quick search on the www. This stuff is common knowledge, widely known and widely used currently in a number of disciplines -- as demonstrated above. Deeceevoice 02:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Racism? This reads like the pot calling the kettle black.

The observation of naturally occurring differences among human populations is merely that. What one does with such perfectly factual information may or may not be racist. But the fact that such differences exist -- and that those differences are routinely and legitimately used in scientific and other disciplines -- is undeniable. I find it amusing -- not to mention curious -- that User: CoYep deliberately rewrote the language I had written which explained that the majority of the incidence of prognathism in human populations is perfectly natural. Coyep deliberately redefined prognathism as abnormal and the result of disease. He also produced inserted a schematic that pronounced the flat, Caucasoid profile "normal" which, by implication, meant that Negroid and Mongoloid profiles are somehow abnormal. I reverted his changes -- and you restored them. Yet you claim to be concerned about racism. Now, far be it for me to jump to conclusions about your motives, but there seems to be an incongruity here. I'd be very interested in hearing an explanation of Coyep and your edits. Would either of you care to address the rationale behind your edits in this regard? Deeceevoice 11:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could share your sense of humor, but unfortunately I can't find anything "amusing" about an editor who - for the sake of POV pushing - declares that adopting the terminlogy [8] and illustration [9]of the National Institutes of Health is "racist" but then insists that an exaggerated and insulting illustration of a skull that looks like an inferior Homo erectus skull [10] or even a Chimpanzee skull [11] "accurately depicts the characteristics of the classic "Negroid" phenotype". And, reviewing the discussion @ Talk:Negroid,[12] it's obvious that my sentiments are shared by many other editors. CoYep 13:38, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

A wholly unsatisfactory response -- and not an explanation at all. I will say this about the discussion at Negroid. It was the result of ignorance on the part of some of the editors, reacting to the old racist propaganda that likened black folks to simeons -- when all hominids are ape-like, some profiles, human and simeon, sharing prognathisms, others sharing a flatter profile. Frankly, it's all the same. And once that was explained to them, the most vociferous of those objecting to the illustration to which you refer conceded that his was a knee-jerk reaction. And the illustration, because it is accurate, remains.

Now, insofar as your unfortunate and, IMO, reprehensible editorial conduct with regard to this particular article: as the article as I've written it clearly states, prognathism, indeed, can be the result of a disease condition or abnormality in some circumstances -- in populations where prognathism is not the norm. However, the article also very clearly states that in certain populations -- blacks and Asians -- prognathism is the norm. That means that whites are a distinct minority in this regard. (Your illustration designating the flattened Caucasoid profile as "normal" is certainly not the case when the whole of humanity is taken into account. If one were to take your approach, one could most certainly, and more accurately, assert that it is the Caucasoid profile which is the abnormal one.) What you have done is tantamount to someone turning to a medical article on progeria and inserting it into an article on the elderly and using it support the ridiculous contention that all old people are abnormal, malformed or diseased. You pointedly reverted the text to blanketly define prognathism as abnormal and a deformity. That, to me, smacks of racism and deliberate provocation -- and, IMO, pretty tacky and extremely ill-considered. I hope that in the future your edits will be more factual and respectful of the documented information already presented. Deeceevoice 18:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

deeceevoice, please remain civil and resist implications of racism ("it stinks of racism"). if you've quoted an individual and he later shows up to say you've taken his quote out of context, treat him with a little graciousness. wiki is short on experts in certain areas, and as far as i know you are untrained in this field. i really appreciate sweet's comments, it clears up a lot. the interminable application of prognathism-science to egyptian mummies can finally come to an end.

the skull images are going away. there is no appropriate copyright information with them, and they are not on the site where they claim to be from. please do not restore them. they will likely be deleted from wiki altogether in a few days. Justforasecond 23:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

You asked a question, and I gave you your answer. Too bad about the skull images. They were useful. I can't say the same about CoYep's illustration (which you reinserted) though. :p The information in the article still stands. I have reordered the verbiage to its original position. The normative states should be presented together. The clearly abnormal state of the condition should be last, followed by the subhead dealing w/notable people with the condition. Finally, there has been nothing incivil about my comments to you. I have addressed the nature of your edits to this article in a forthright matter -- nothing more, and my comments stand. Deeceevoice 06:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

deeceevoice, i did not reinsert an image from "coyep". the prognathism science with relation to egyptian mummies can finally come to an end because sweet seems to be saying prognathism only works with UNITED STATES populations to distinguish who is "black" and who is "white" becuase of our history. (thanks for finding the links though) sweet says prognathisms doesn't work in many other countries because their histories are different. as far as i can tell susan anton did not use "prognathism" in her determination and her conclusions come with many caveats. your frequent claims (without proof) that "hawass lied" could amount to libel so please refrain. Justforasecond 19:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

And who made Sweet an authority/the last word? Assuming your characterization of his findings is correct, his contentions are ridiculous on their face. If anything, prognathism, since it is fundamentally a distinctly Africoid trait, is used all over the world by forensic experts and anthropologists. Again, Susan Anton used the cluster of: pronounced alveolar and maxillary prognathism, enlarged incisors and a receding chin (a bucktoothed appearance), rounded eye sockets and the pronounced dolichocephalism of the skull to to determine Tut's skull was North African (read "Nilotic"). If you check UK sites, you will also find discussions of prognathism used in such a fashion. I just checked the edit summary, and you are correct about not having reinserted CoYep's ill-considered schematic. Sincere apologies. Deeceevoice 12:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hawass did lie -- according to Anton's own account of her findings. You can e-mail her if you'd like. She never used the word "Caucasian" in her description of the Tut skull. Let me know, and I'll be happy to provide you her e-mail addy. I e-mailed Hawass and -- predicably -- he had no response.

Further, with regard to the use of prognathism and U.S. populations, the reverse should be true, given the degree of miscegenation among U.S. blacks. In a Smithsonian study, only 35 percent of the African-American specimens examined had pronounced alveolar prognathism (hell, we're mongrels). Still, black populations were relatively easily identifiable because of distinctive faciocranial characteristics taken as a whole. A Smithsonian study of African, Caribbean and U.S. skulls (of blacks and whites) confirms this, with prognathism being far more pronounced in Caribbean populations than in U.S. populations (for obvious reasons -- less racial admixture). The study was nonmetric -- that is, the speciments were eyeballed. That's how obvious the differences were/are. Again, the cluster of characteristics examined by Anton are what enabled her to pinpoint the point of origin of Tut's skull. Anton states it was obvious to her the skull was African. But where did the "North African" come from? The clincher was the narrow nasal index. No human population has that precise cluster of faciocranial characteristics -- other than Nilotic blacks, and Tut had them in spades, indicating that Tut was very likely pure Nilotic. No miscegenation. None. And, yes. There are certainly other skulls of Egyptian pharaohs and their queens that have been studied that clearly indicate racial admixture over time, but not that of Tut. Deeceevoice 12:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• Sweet has said what he said (I hope I didn't misunderstand). Prognathisms are useful in the US, but not in many other countries. An uncited Smithosonian study doesn't change that

I'd take the time to find the website, but I'm in the middle of a couple of deadlines. Besides, you're not inclined to heed the findings, anyway. Further, there are ample examples all over the world of prognathism (as well as other faciocranial characteristics) that are well-established, unchallenged by scientists and currently in use to determine racial/ethnic identity of unidentified human specimens. Deeceevoice 16:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It's alright someone found it for ya. The "study" is a poster by an undergraduate. Justforasecond 23:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• Any study that is "eyeballing" prognathism doesn't sound very scientific.

"Eyeballing" as in using "nonmetric criteria"; they took no measurements, but carefully observed and noted the physical characteristics of the specimen. Calculated observation: scientists do it all the time. Deeceevoice 16:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• I did email Anton, she does not believe Hawass lied

Then you didn't ask the right question. Hawass explicitly stated that those who participated in the Tut reconstructions found the skull to be that of a "Caucasoid North African" -- his exact words. Did you ask Anton if she said the skull was Caucasoid? If she even thinks it is? No. You couldn't have. Because then you would know that, indeed, Hawass flat-out lied. In fact, she denies most strenuously that she ever used the word "Caucasian" in the classification of Tut's noggin. Deeceevoice 16:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Anton told me she does not believe Hawass lied. What question could possibly elicit a different answer? Justforasecond 23:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, come, now. Have you not heard of collegial courtesy? Fact: Zawass put words into the mouth of Susan Anton she neither spoke nor wrote. He lied. Deeceevoice 12:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Nasal indexes, etc: this is the prognathism article, isn't it?

Prognathism, cephalic index, dentation, nasal indices, nasal bridges, nasal guttering, orbital sockets -- these are all used to determine racial/ethnic identity. Prognathism is simply the single most salient aspect in identifying Africoid remains. Deeceevoice 16:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This is the prognathism page, not the "africoid remains" page. Justforasecond 23:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You're just nattering now, JFAS. :p

• Your use of terms like "miscegenataion", "mogrels" and "pure" may be misinformed. They imply that several races were placed on earth indepently long ago ... and later mixed together. That's not the way it happened. Justforasecond 15:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

They imply no such thing. The single origin thesis, however, posits that different populations (which have been clustered into "racial" groupings) gradually evolved over time from a single cluster which migrated out of Africa. And those populations have, indeed, mixed over time. Deeceevoice 16:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain the single origin thesis does not mention "mongrels", "miscegenation" or "pure" people. They're all outdated racist terms from way back. Time to let them fade. Justforasecond 23:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

If the words adequately convey intent, then they are perfectly serviceable. You get my drift? :p Deeceevoice 12:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is the link to the Smithsonian Study Deeceevoice cited [13] The study was the first project done by a student participating in a minority internship program, a program for prospective, graduate or undergraduate students. [14]

"In a Smithsonian study, only 35 percent of the African-American specimens examined had pronounced alveolar prognathism" (Deeceevoice)

Actually, the study states that "For the American Black sample ... Alveolar prognathism was not seen in a high number of the Black population with only 32.5% having pronounced prognathism and 38.6% having only slight prognathism. Total Nasal Form was also not as expected with only 44% of the Black population having a broad nasal form."

The skulls for the american sample were taken from a 20th Century Terry collection, whereas the skulls for the African and Caribbean samples were taken from Colonial material and 18th-19th Century collections - I am not a anthropologist so I can't judge the material used by this student, but I know that collectons as flawed as the famous Blumenbach collection were not uncommon during this era. CoYep 17:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha. An undergraduate poster becomes a study by the Smithsonian Institute. Classic. Justforasecond 23:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, the product of a quick Google -- not a deliberate attempt to deceive. After all, what of the other links I provided? :p The salient point is this: it is abundantly clear that prognathism is used -- effectively and with great success -- today, still, by experts across scientific disciplines to ascertain racial/ethnic identity in human specimens. That much should be quite clear. Unless and until the wording of the article is changed in significant part, I don't much care what comments disgruntled naysayers may have on the discussion page. Fact is fact. Peace. :p Deeceevoice 12:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh. One more thing. From the Smithsonian site, here are the results of determining racial identity from cranial material using the nonmetric criteria I noted above, prominent among which is prognathism:

Overall Accuracy in the Terry and Colonial Collection Terry Collection

Males and Females

Blacks – 90% accurate (n=90/100)

Whites – 94.4% accurate (n=101/107)

Females Only

Blacks – 90% accurate (n=45/50)

Whites – 88% accurate (n=44/50)

Males Only

Blacks – 90%accurate (n=45/50)

Whites – 100% accurate (n=50/50)

Colonial Material Governor’s Landing

Males and Females

Whites – 55.6% accurate (n=5/9)

Cliffs Plantation

Males and Females

Blacks – 100% accurate (n=9/9)

Whites – 40% accurate (n=2/5)

Governor’s Landing and Cliffs Plantation

Males and Females

Blacks - 100% accurate (n=9/9)

Whites – 50% accurate (n=7/14)

Note the high degree of accuracy in properly identifying Africoid remains, consistently at 90% or above and, in one case, 100%. Pretty impressive. :p Deeceevoice 13:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obsolete, discredited, and made-up human classifications

I eliminated usage of obsolete (e.g.: "Mongoloid"), discredited (e.g.: "Caucasoid") and made up (e.g.: "Africoid") human classifications in order to reflect the current terminology in physical anthropology. I retained one example of obsolete terminology (Coon's "Caucasoid" and Congoid" sub-species) to reflect the now-discarded early 20th-century usage. -- Frank W Sweet 19:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not interested in an edit war, and I certainly respect your academic training. However, prognathism is not limited to sub-Saharan blacks and is evident among Nilotics to a highly pronounced degree (that means blacks of the Nile Valley, and that means North Africa) and is present also in Africans of the Horn, though to varying degrees. Further, prognathism is a tool used internationally -- and not just in the U.S. What is the basis of such a seemingly absurd assertion? If that is the case, then you should be able to cite sources, as I have. Thanks. Deeceevoice 20:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources? Okay. Let's take it one obsolete, discredited, and made-up human classification at a time. Start with "Africoid." You use this classification term more than any other. Where did you get this word from? -- Frank W Sweet 20:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Please understand that I am not objecting to the definitions of the different kinds of prognathism. And I have no problem with finding that prognathiism (like every other feature of human physiognomy) tends to run in families and in the extended families that we call "popuations." I am objecting first and foremost to your use of obsolete, discredited, and made-up classification. Feel free to describe how prognathism varies around the world. But use current terminology. This may seem trivial, but the clssification schemes of the past have been discredited because they cannot even be defined objectively. What exactly do you mean by "Africoid"? I suggest that if you think it through, it comes down "looks African." But this is meaninglessly subjective. An Australian Aborigine may "look African" to you but he certainly does not "look African" to me. First, because I am looking at different features. But mostly because the triangle bounded by Casblanca, Cape Town, and Cairo contains thousands of cultures, hundreds of mutually unintelligible, languages, and more variation in every human trait than in the entire rest of the planet combined. If you need a refresher on currently accepted terms and population classifications, I recommend Robert Jurmain and others, Introduction to Physical Anthropology, 8th ed. (Belmont CA: Wadsworth, 2000) or, for that matter, any undergraduate physical anthropology text published within the past quarter-cenutry. == Frank W Sweet 21:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Africoid. Sources/documentation? Deeceevoice 00:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you citing the Wiki article on "Negroid" as your source for the term "Africoid? If so, you are either mistaken or deceptive. The word does not appear there at all. The Wiki article, in turn, cites Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, and Alberto Piazza, The History and Geography of Human Genes, trans. Sarah Thorne (Princeton: Princeton University, 1994). Is this your source for the term "Africoid? If so, you are either mistaken or deceptive. The word does not appear there at all. Please give your source. Stop reverting the article to put back your obsolete, discredited, and made-up human classifications until you can cite a source. Again, where did you get the word "Africoid"? It is begining to look like it is something that you personally made up. -- Frank W Sweet 04:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, deeceevoice is citing the debunked "negroid" term as proof that "africoid" is a legitmate term. After being sent on irrelevant goose chases like this, many start to wonder whether discussion will continue to be fruitful. I wouldn't be too surprised to see a most sincere apology after this, but an insistence that africoid remain notheless.

Africoid should be removed from this article and most others. It appears to be an agenda-driven neologism made up by afrocentrists unhappy that "negroid" had been thrown out by anyone learned. All citations seem to be afrocentrist sites like "melanet.com" or wikipedia forks, and a couple articles about cocaine binding to hair. We can let this term lie off on his own page or an afrocentrism page but it doesn't belong elsewhere. The association between "africoid" and any other wiki concept is original research.

Justforasecond 05:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting and a little scary, if accurate. Why would anyone inject a political agenda (via the use of a coined meaningless word) into an article on an obscure aspect of craniofacial anthropometry? Are there similar "spins" in articles on gonial inversions, dental arcades, nasal aperture shapes, and the like? -- Frank W Sweet 13:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Omigod! I just read the article on "Negroid" in detail. (I had earlier just searched for the term discussed above). The article preaches classifications that were discarded as useless and misleading by non-forensic physical anthopologists over a quarter-century ago. Worse, the article cites, as source for this bizarre time-warp, Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes. Good lord! The cited book spends an entire chapter debunking those very classification schemes! How can anyone cite a great reference book to claim the direct opposite of what it so eloquently demonstrates? -- Frank W Sweet 13:53, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it really surprising? After all, your work was taken out of context and used in this article. The idea seems to be to put together a case for bringing back the use of races in order to push an afrocentrist agenda. "Africoid" is a way to link many distantly related populations. Prognathism is used as "proof" that various populations are related. This from the Negroid talk page:

Well, I don't have a dolichocephalic skull, but I definitely have both a maxillary and alveolar prognathism. And, no. Not even all unmiscegenated Africans (many of us here in the States are simply mongrels -- no two ways about it) have dolichocephalic skulls or maxillary prognathisms. But I haven't met or seen one of us yet (unmixed) who doesn't have an alveolar prognathism. I appreciate your comments, though. I've long ago stopped letting the racism of white folks (and others) perturb me; it's their problem -- not mine. I'm not sensitive to it in the least in that sense. I recognize it and fight it when I deem it necessary/productive/important. But we are what we are -- collectively (and, yes, stereotypically/classically): chocolate brown or blue-black with round, "Bantu booties"; full lips; nappy/happy hair with a mind of its own; (sometimes) long heads; broad noses; forward-slanting, sometimes to the point of being downright angular, profiles -- yeah, alluh dat. And I embrace it, appreciate it, truly dig it. IMO, we're the baddest, most beautiful things on God's green. :D I walk in that truth. And I don't much give a damn about those who are so blinded by racism, intolerance, hatred and their own fears and insecurities, that they can't/won't see our Light. I don't care what kind of adjectives they hang on us, or what they try to associate us with. Their constant attempts to dehumanize and denigrate us are a reflection on them and their sickness -- not us. Apes? Without them, we would not be here. They are our ancestors -- and WE are the ancestors of everyone (and everything) else. We stood upright, and OUR eyes saw the Earth when it was new.

As an expert, don't waste any time being bold -- strip out anything you recognize as nonsense. Justforasecond 16:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

A response

Despite what some would like to pretend, the terms describing the so-called "races" of humankind are still very much in use today as terms descriptive of human phenotypes. A simple googling of the terms will produce abundant examples to verify this simple -- and obvious -- fact. While the concept of rigid, discrete "races" of humankind has fallen from favor, there is no doubt that these terms ("Negroid", "Caucasoid," "Australoid", "Capoid,", etc., etc.) are still used by forensics experts, forensic anthropologists, etc., worldwide to describe the human species. The most high-profile recent example: the description by Zahi Hawass of the skull of Tut as a "Caucasoid North African."

And you're asking us to believe these terms are somehow suddenly extinct? Hogwash! However much one may protest the notion of "race," one cannot reasonably ignore the fact that every day human remains are examined, classified and identified, and startlingly accurate forensic reconstructions accomplished (including the assignation of characteristics such as skin color, hair color and texture and eye color) based on facio-cranial characteristics -- prominent among them, prognathism. The information is accurate and properly qualified. It is reinserted, with the blatant eurocentrism of the edit-warred version reversed.

I am still waiting for a reasonable explanation as to why other editors of this article continue to seek to represent prognathism, first and foremost, as a pathological or abnormal condition -- when the majority of peoples of the world exhibit prognathism of various types and to varying degrees. The only explanation for such a biased treatment of the subject matter is the perverse mind-set that whites constitute a universal norm and that all others not conforming to the white standard are somehow pathological or deviant. And that is, pure and simple, racist. deeceevoice 08:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Layout

I propose a split in different sections: first a section with general medical/anatomical definitions and then one with the pros and cons concerning the forensic/anthropological/racial theories incl. the informations provided by Frank. CoYep 05:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

Hey all you dental deviants seem to be writing this article for each other, I have no idea what half the words mean! "upper maxilla", "dental arches", "alveolar", etc. You might want to tone it down or provide wikilinks as required. Also, the intro section dives into detail right off the bat - it needs a more gradual buildup. --Hooperbloob 07:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

"The word prognathism derives from Greek pro (forward) and ganathos (jaw). If strictly applied, this word refers to conditions where the upper maxilla seems to be protruded with respect to the mandible. In orthodontics this condition is more commonly referred as Skeletal Class III. To this condition corresponds often, but not necessarily, a sagittal discrepancy between the upper and lower dental arches. The word prognathism is often applied also to those conditions with a lack of growth of the mandible, while the upper jaw has normal dimensions. The latter skeletal pattern is by far more common than true prognathism.

If the term prognathism is used with a more extended meaning, it can be applied also to those conditions where the lower jaw is more protruded than the upper jaw. This conditions is better described with the terms Mandibular Prognathism or Progenism. Orthodontists usually refer to this condition with the term Skeletal Class III."

The first two paragraphs are a contradiction. A protrusion of the maxilla relative to the mandible greater than Class I (normal) is Class II, which is a retruding mandible not a prognathic maxilla. The maxilla is a fixed part of the skull and does not move, hence it is not normally referred to as prognathic or retruding. A protrusion of the mandible with respect to the maxilla, prognathism, is characteristic of a Class III occlusion. The first paragraph is mostly incorrect.

• I think the whole introduction is quite incorrect, so I've redone it. Please discuss the changes here, but for the time being, I believe the new introduction is far more correct and far easier to understand. Billyb 07:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

There is, indeed, such a thing as maxillary prognathism. Google it. It's just not generally present in whites. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Whites are a minority in the world. I have maxillary prognathism. My upper jaw protrudes forward. And I also have alveolar prognathism. I am African-American. Most indigenous African peoples, in fact, have one or both of these types of prognathism.

Actually, the definition as it currently stands is incorrect and highly Eurocentric. It defines prognathism solely by the form in which it manifests as an abnormal condition among whites/Europeans, as mandibular prognathism (underbite): "Prognathism refers to one possible way that the maxillary and mandibular dental arches can relate together. Orthodontists often refer to this type of maxillofacial relationship as Skeletal Class III. It is popularly called an underbite." The text is flat-out wrong -- and is, in fact, contradicted by other information produced in this (incorrect) version of the article and the non-eurocentric, accurate version. It repeatedly has been edit-warred back to this incorrect, eurocentric (racist) definition -- without any real attempt whatsoever at explanation of the serial, blanket reversions by CoYep and the anonymous edit warrior clearly operating from an LAN.deeceevoice 12:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blatant Eurocentrist bias countered by new version

I raised this issue back in March, above[15], but it's an ongoing problem.

Some days ago (again), I overhauled the article to counter the blatant Eurocentrism evident in the treatment of this subject. An anonymous editor has twice reverted it to the old version, complete with errors, with little more than a cryptic note which refers to an old argument -- which has been taken into account in the present version.

The old article is racist/Eurocentrist in structure and content. It defines prognathism, first and foremost as a pathological condition. It mentions the minority condition (flat profile) first and defines the majority condition as deviant. This is blatantly Eurocentric, given the fact that far more people -- non-whites -- Asians and Blacks -- have prognathism than do not.

The lead paragraph of the eurocentric, continuously edit-warred version is deficient in that it defines prognathism solely with regard to maxillary and mandibular prognathism, which is the way it most commonly manifests (abnormally) in whites -- very Eurocentric, indeed, given that Negroid blacks, Australoids, Capoids and Veddoid and Sudroid peoples (and I use these terms not as racial categories, but as phenotypical ones) -- and we outnumber whites -- have alveolar prognathism. The lead paragraph also clearly misdefines "underbite."

As if that weren't bad enough, the revert reinserts what I contend is a set of blatantly racist illustrations -- of a white, male child, one with a "normal" (for a white person) profile and with with a prognathism. "Normal" according to whom? My objections to this illustration are known; they were registered early on, when it was first introduced to the article several months ago. It was deleted then -- and I have deleted it once again. (Note: That illustration finally has been replaced with one that is acceptable in that it does not characterize flat profiles as "normal." deeceevoice 17:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC))

Further, there are numerous syntactical problems with the earlier version. Portions of it simply are not very well written. All of this has been addressed in the newer version.

The information about the use of prognathism in forensic disciplines also has been rewritten/tweaked.

Please do not continue to blanket revert text without discussion here. Wikipedia is an international project, and its content should reflect that. Representing prognathism first as a pathological condition is blatantly Eurocentrist and completely unacceptable. deeceevoice 17:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

At least the offensive, blatantly eurocentric image is gone. It was proprietary and, upon my calling a complaint by A.D.A.M., the source, to the attendion of admins it has been deleted from the database. At least that is taken care of, so at least the edit warrior(s?) can't continue to insert it. deeceevoice 20:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Still awaiting meaningful discussion of the issues raised herein. deeceevoice 12:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A dental term

Well, I was going through some dental-related articles, and stumbled across this one. To my surprise, there apparently has been somewhat of an edit conflict going on? I will try to read about what exactly is the issue here, and see if there is anything I can contribute. Also, I will notify some other editors for their insight. - Dozenist talk 15:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks -- since the edit warriors don't seem interested in discussing the matter -- only in serial reversion.  :) deeceevoice 16:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said on Dozenist's talk page, if this is a dental article, the anthropology section has to go. Unfortunately, they describe two different approaches to the same phenomenon and therefore must be split, as they are philosophically distinct. Secondly this article needs to be placed in a context and therefore needs a significant rewrite to include skeletal base, retrognathism, cephalometrics, diagnosis, treatment, more on classification. This article is a MAJOR oversimplification, in dental terms. This article has the veneer of a dental article (no pun intended), but reads like an attempt to push a particular agenda (whether that was intended or not). I don't care whose it is, or what it is about, it must go in order to make this article NPOV. Fortunately, most of these problems arise from the anthropology section, which if I have my way, will go anyway. Somebody should write a separate article about this in anthropological terms. A tip if someone does decide to do this after anthropology goes (and it will): put things in CONTEXT. You can't just slam a historical paragraph into the middle of the (supposedly) modern anthropology section and not expect people to react in the way they have done. It reads like someone has this opinion in modern times. Also, please people HAVE THE (proverbial) BALLS TO SIGN YOUR DISCUSSION ENTRIES. At the very least its good manners. Dr-G - Illigetimi nil carborundum est. 20:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I've never liked prognathism as a term to describe a protroding jaw because prognathic is a relativistic term. Commonly prognathic IS used to describe a prominent jaw, but IMO it is more correct to use it to describe a jaw's (upper OR lower) relationship to the base of the skull. An article written from this starting point and in dental terms would eliminate racial bias (of any form). This article should be scientifically approached and evidence based. It is currently not. Dr-G - Illigetimi nil carborundum est. 20:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please be bold and edit the article as you sees fit! CoYep 21:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring

Deeceevoice recently called my attention to this article. From what I can see, her edits are being reverted wholesale, without discussion. Given that they are certainly not vandalism or trolling, this is entirely inappropriate. She has made her case here on the talk page. It has not been answered.

What should happen at this point is a discussion. That is what I would like to see. However, if the people who are arguing with her won't discuss, then I intend to protect her version so that the other side will have some motivation to discuss. I'll give at least 24 hours before I protect, because I would certainly like to see this move forward without the use of such a heavy-handed tool. - Jmabel | Talk 17:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

you cant protect a favorite version, especially one that is NOT consensus. thats abusing your rights. if theres too much edit warring then you should lock in when you just came in here. NOT wait till a troll puts her words here to lock it. dr g answered comments again "the anthropology stuff has to go, or at least has to be placed in a context, so that accusations of racism aren't bandied about." every website on google says prognathism is about a medical condition but deeceevoice says it is NOT and says we are eurocentrists. J jackson

1. Deeceevoice's version [16] states:

"...certain clusters of phenotypical characteristics historically assigned to closely related human populations remain useful today in various archaeological and forensic disciplines. The degree to which prognathism is, or is not, present commonly is used today to help establish the relatedness of human populations, living and dead; their likely geographic origins; and, still, to assign racial classification. It is also one of many commonly utilized metrics in the identification of human remains, including in the field of forensic reconstruction. Broadly speaking, prognathism is most common among virtually all black peoples indigenous to Africa, the Australoid peoples of Australia and New Guinea, various sundadont and usually darker-skinned Southeast Asian populations, and the Sudroid (sometimes called Veddoid) and Australoid peoples of the Indian subcontinent. It also occurs frequently in indigenous peoples of the Americas. Alveolar, maxillary and mandibular prognathism are most common in these populations. Caucasoid peoples, generally considered indigenous to Europe and nearby regions, commonly have an orthognathous, or flat profile. East Asians, generally of the Mongoloid phenotype, are sinodont populations and have no prognathism. There are, however, frequent exceptions to these broad categories, which defy narrow racial and/or ethnic classifications."

This is information is factual incorrect. It was already explained to DCV by anthropologist Frank W. Sweet (who she first misquoted and then insulted when he correct her (see above)) that such determinations are not possible for places outside the U.S. (e.g. Puerto Rico, Brazil, Senegal, Chad, Ethiopia) because they lack appearance-based endogamous groups. It was also brought to DCV's attention several times that the American Anthropological Association states clearly that "physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them" and that "there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them". Furthermore, it was already explained to DCV that it's not possible to determine an individuals skin color based on the skull's craniofacial characteristics. Furthermore, even those anthropologists who differentiated humans based on cranofacial characteristics did not define "virtually all black peoples indigenous to Africa" or "darker-skinned populations" per se as prognathous. For instance, humans indigenous to parts of sub-Saharan Africa like Senegal, Gambia, Chad, Burkina Faso, Ethiopia, and Somalia, were declared to be orthognathous "Caucasoids" with limited or nonexistent prognathism.

2. It is rather interesting that while DCV claims that the original version defines Prognathism to be a "abnormal" condition, it's DCV who repeatedly changes the caption "Notable people with the condition" to "Notable people with abnormal mandibular prognathism".

3. This is an article about a dental term and there is absolutely no justification why it should start with an essay about racial categories

4. This is an article about a dental term and there is absolutely no justification for DCV's repeated removal of the medical "Classifications and external resources" template.

5. Parts of this article are still in need for a polish over, and there is absolutely no justification for DCV's repeated removal of the "in need of attention from an expert" template

6. This article is semiprotected, and DCV's repeated removal of the protection notice is against wiki etiquette

7. DCV started her edit war over her factual incorrect POV more than a year ago [17] , and ever since, several editors explained to her - repeatedly and frequently - why her edits are factual incorrect and that they take a stab at wikipedia's credibility, yet she comes back every couple of weeks to reinsert it. How often are editors expected to engage themselves in futile discussions?

8. You have the power to protect your preferred version, but as far as I know, admins should avoid favouring one version of an article over another. And it could be viewed as a violation of your admin powers if you would favour and protect one version because one of your associate asks you to do so. CoYep 19:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Given that you've come here to talk, I cannot and will not protect a particular version (indeed, I presume that there is no need to protect the article at all). However, when one side refuses to discuss a matter, but keeps reverting, protecting the other side's version is actually pretty common, though not usually in topics related to dentistry.

• Deeceevoice, please don't remove the semi-protection notice if that is the state of the article.

• If someone thinks this is in need of an expert, that's almost always a legitimate request, especially when made by a long-established Wikipedian. Deeceevoice, what expertise exactly are you asking for (A dentist, an anthropologist, etc.)? - Jmabel | Talk 17:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Several editors already discussed all these issues with her ad nauseam. (Among them Ph.D. anthropologist Frank W. Sweet who dedicated some of his spare time to help us to develop the current "Racial or ethnic anthropology" section, which DCV reverts continuously). If you have time at your hands to dance around in circles, by all means, please do so.

2. Obviously she is not asking for an expert, since she is the one who continuously removes the legitimate request made by a long-established Wikipedian CoYep 19:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)