Talk:Penalty shootout (football)

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Contents 1 Merge? 2 Illegal? 3 Goal Advantage 4 Name 5 MLS 6 Redundancy Removal 7 Controversy section 8 Introduction of penalty shootout 9 Players not taking part 10 Team starting penalty shootouts 11 I don't want to sound dumb, but... 12 Which side? 13 Who takes kicks? 14 Clarify World Cup Final Shootout 15 Table 16 Red cards or injuries during penalty shootouts 17 Alternatives section 18 Insufficient context template added 19 Sorry, I'm new. 20 PSO? PEN? abbreviations

[edit] Merge?

See my comments in Talk:Penalty kick (football) Qwghlm 20:31, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Illegal?

The article says it is illegal to remove the goalie under a situation with a red card. Is it really illegal, or just extremely inadvisable? Could a team theoretically have another player defend the goal for the shootout? I'm an American who is not familiar enough with soccer/football so I don't want to add false information. zellin 03:36, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Zellin,

Only the player designated "goalkeeper" can defend the penalty kick. If the current goalkeeper is unwilling to do so, the team must nominate one of the other eligible players to become the goalkeeper. Note that - just like during the match proper - the role of goalkeeper can be swapped to another player.

Cheers, --Daveb 12:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

So should that part of the article be clarified? zellin 04:36, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Goal Advantage

Could a definition of what Goal Advantage means be added? If there was a separate page for it I'd link to it but I can't find one. JiMternet 20:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

"Goal Advantage" is not a term used in relation to penalty kicks, I've reworded that particular sentence to make more sense - what it means is that if e.g. the score is 4-2 and there is only one round of kicks left, then as the losing side cannot catch up, the shootout ends and a 'winner' declared. Qwghlm 21:52, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Sorry, but the name of this article is appaling. I'm changing it to "Penalty Shootout" as per Wikipedia naming conventions. --Irishpunktom\^talk 23:00, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Kicks from the penalty mark is the correct name for the procedure, so the title wasn't really that appaling. However, it is true that this is not the commonly used colloquial term and as such a rename isn't out of order considering Wikipedia's focus on colloquial naming. --Daveb 09:29, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I have switched the terms in the opening paragraph to reflect the change of page title. JiMternet 08:44, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] MLS

If MLS shootouts weren't penalty shootouts, what where they? JiMternet 09:47, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

They were taken from 35 yards out, and the taker could have as many touches as they can before scoring - there was a time limit of five seconds or something like that. I don't think WP has a page about them currently. Qwghlm 10:16, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, they were more akin to ice hockey shootouts than football (soccer) KFTPM. --Daveb 06:09, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh...that's something I've never seen. Cool AND wierd.--84.217.3.197 01:16, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redundancy Removal

I don't thik this was a redundancy - I read it as if they had now introduced an away goals rule in 2005. Anyone know for sure? JiMternet 12:18, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I think you're right - Away goals rule says the same, but extra time is still not played - this also says the same. I've rewritten the sentence to make this clear. Qwghlm 12:09, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy section

Mark272, In answer to your concern expressed in your latest edit's summary line, the POV/quasi-POV statements I referred to were:

• for their 'lottery' type status
• Another method introduced to try and settle a tied match in a fairer way was the golden goal rule

I note these have been reworded in your latest edit, which has improved the section considerably. --Daveb 12:51, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction of penalty shootout

Yosef Dagan, who was in charge of foreign affairs at the Israeli Football association, claims he was the man who proposed this method to FIFA circa 1970, following Israel's elimination from the football tournament at Mexico 1968 Olympics by draw of lots, as was the costume in those days. At the same year, a draw was also used to decide the winner of a semifinal in the European championship between Italy and USSR. Can anyone verify that the penalty shootout was in fact introduced in international football as a result of Dagan's proposal?

As far as I know, the first international tournament that authorised penalty shootout was the qualification to Munich 1972 Olympic tournament. Ironically, Israel became one of its first victims as it was eliminated from the Asian qualifying tournament in March 1972 at Rangoon by Thailand... a case of poisoning by its own medicine... --Nitsansh 15:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Thats not true. I found several detailed sources includig the german Wikipedia ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfmeter#Geschichte ) that the penalty shooutout was introduced by referee Karl Wald from Bavaria. Maybe someone is able to translate. The story about the israelis introducing the penalty shootout is nonsense. The first time I ever read this was in here, nowhere else. --Baris 20:55, 10 July 2006

Karl Wald

"Karl Forest from Frankfurt/Main the idea of the penalty shootout. He found 1970 on the Bavarian Verbandtstag in Munich for of it with the utmost care prepared, today internationally valid rule a majority the delegated ones against the resistance of the English federation guidance. The German football federation (DFB) a little later took over the rule out, short after it followed Bavaria the European soccer union (UEFA) and the world union FIFA." I love how the machine translation has translated his name!

The Times of Malta certainly believes he invented them. [1]

[2] gives interesting quotes:

"Actor Peter Ustinov once described it thus: "A shoot-out is as if a great war is not decided by great tactics developed around a boardroom table, but by a bunch of chosen privates playing Russian Roulette."

"I always believed that I was right," Wald maintains, pointing to the many exciting penalty shoot-outs that have taken place over the years.

Yosef Dagan

[3] was all I could find, a TV listing. On the basis of my research, I'm going to mention Wald and de-emphasise the Dagan claim while leaving it there. --Guinnog 09:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Players not taking part

However, if at the beginning of kicks from the penalty mark one side has more players on the field than the other, then the side with more players shall select an appropriate number of players to not take part. For example, if Team A has 11 players but Team B only has 10, then Team A will choose one player not to take part. Note that it is not allowed to de-select a goalkeeper from having to take part in kicking from the penalty mark: players de-selected cannot play any part in the procedure.

I'm sure I have seen at least one shootout where one team has had more players and all of them have taken part—I just don't remember which one :( Does somebody have a source for this fact? rbonvall 04:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

This fact is just plain wrong. Everyone on the side takes their penalty regardless of how many men the opponents have fewer.

If this fact is indeed wrong, then someone needs to explain it to John Motson, as during the England-Portugal World Cup match he made a big thing of explaining that, as England were down to ten men, Portugal had to nominate one player who would not participate in the penalty shootout..... ChrisTheDude 11:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It was mentioned again during the BBC commentary on the final, so I think unfortunately it is the anonymous poster above who is wrong..... ChrisTheDude 07:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The shootout trivia page linked in the article does have one account of a penalty shootout in the Israeli Cup in which one team was down two men. It specifically says that two men from the other team sat out the penalties, despite the fact that there were more than enough kicks to go through the entire lineup. Pimlottc 13:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Team starting penalty shootouts

I'd like to know how it's decided which team kicks the first penalty shootout. After the first kick, the next ones are of course alternating, but either I'm missing something or it's not clear from the article whose the first one is. Thanks. – b_jonas 22:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

A coin is tossed to decide who kicks first ChrisTheDude 07:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. – b_jonas 20:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I don't want to sound dumb, but...

Why is it that up until the Round of 16 in the World Cup, teams advance based on points, but then they switch to using the penalty kicks to decide? Is it because they need an immediate 'winner?' After reading this article I'm still not quite sure...

The first round works on a group system, where each team plays each other team in their group once. It isn't important if there isn't a winner in each individual game, as it is the overall position on the ladder at the end of the round that determines who progresses in the tournament. From group of 16 on the tournament is a knockout tournament, in which the winner of each individual game goes through, hence each game needs a winner. Cheers, --Daveb 07:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which side?

In the England v. Portugal 2006 World Cup quarter-final, I noticed that all the kicks of the shootout were taken using the same goal. I assume this is to ensure fairness in case of a slight difference between the goals (just as the teams switch sides between halves). Is this part of the official procedure? Pimlottc 23:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I know this also happened at the second Australia v Uruguay qualification game, from a video on YouTube filmed from the crowd near the goal. I guess it is also to save the refs walking from one end of the pitch to the other. I expect it would be official. -- Chuq 01:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Chuq,

Yes, all kicks are taken at the same end. The referee has sole and absolute authority to determine which end will be used. --Daveb 13:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

So are you saying that while it's standard practice to use the same goal, it's not actually specified in the rules? Pimlottc 15:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Err, when I played football, back in the day, winning a flip of the coin allowed you to choose either wheter to shoot first, or to choose the goal to be kicked into. Does this help?--Irishpunktom\^talk 15:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It's specified.[4]See page 53 in the PDF file. --D'Olivier 21:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the end used can be changed midway through a penalty shootout. I remember one international match a couple of years ago where many players were missing from the spot due to the poor quality of the pitch. In this case however the ref seemed powerless to do anything about it such as changing to the other end despite players from both sides complaining.

[edit] Who takes kicks?

Does each team decide for themselves who takes the kicks? I assume the captains give the referee the names and order for their teams before the kicks begin. Is that in fact what happens? or do they choose as they go? What about additional kickers after the initial 5? When are they chosen?

Choose as they go. You can only take one penalty, (Well, until the rest of the team have gone but I'm not sure that this has ever happened) and most teams will have their preferred Penalty takers, but, there is no arbitary list, and the Referee only notes the kickers as they come up to take the kick. The Goalkeeper, however, can only be the keeper in the goal when the final whistle was blown. --Irishpunktom\^talk 15:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It's happened many times Pimlottc 18:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarify World Cup Final Shootout

The article stresses several times a shootout doesn't actually "win" a game but only progresses to the next level in a competition.

What about a World Cup final shootout?

Well, evidently in this case kicks from the penalty spot are used to determine the winner of the World Cup. There could perhaps be some rewording to clarify this I suppose. I should think if you were being careful with your statements about such a situation you'd make sure to say that the match was tied but the tournament was settled by penalties, as in other matches in which a penalty shootout is employed to determine who comes out on top. 86.136.7.8 00:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Or you can think of "tournament winner" as being the next level after "final". In other words, if a team wins normally, by scoring goals, they have both won the match and progressed to the winner of the tournament level. Carcharoth 15:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table

I think it would make more sense to fuse the Euro and Copa América columns into a generic continental championship one. -- Dissident (Talk) 23:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Before doing that, why not actually have a list here of all the penalty shootouts from the World Cup, European Champs and Copa America. That would be more informative than the table. There are only 41 after all (excluding the 2006 ones). Carcharoth 16:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red cards or injuries during penalty shootouts

Can anyone clarify what happens with regards to red cards and injuries during penalty shootouts?

Firstly the goalkeeper and deselection (if there are an uneven number of players). This article says that it is not allowed to deselect the goalkeeper. I think technically this should be that you are not allowed to deselect the person nominated to be the goalkeeper. I'm wondering if the goalkeeper at the end of normal time has to be the goalkeeper in the penalty shootout, or whether a team with less players than the other team could deselect the goalkeeper and then nominate someone else to be the goalkeeper (it would silly of course, but this hypothetical scenario helps clarify what the rules are saying).

Which brings me on to red cards and injuries. It is unlikely (though not impossible) that a player may be injured or otherwise have to leave (sudden illness, red card, etc.). If this is the case, does the other team then have to go through the deselection process to even up the numbers again? And what if it is the goalkeeper who is injured or red-carded? Does that team then have to nominate one of the players on the field to take over the role of goalkeeper?

And do the yellow cards from the normal game carry through to here, allowing a second yellow to become a red card? I would guess that referees would try not to show cards, but sometimes they might be forced to by, say, violent conduct or distracting of the opponent. What happens if the red card or injury is given/happens just as that person is about to take a penalty kick? (Imagine if Michael Owen's knee had given way as he was about to take the winning penalty kick, or the penalty kicker starts arguing with the referee and is sent off before he takes the kick). Carcharoth 15:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

In the extremely unlikely circumstance that a player suddenly became unable to take a kick once the shoot-out had started, then I guess yes, the other team would have to deselect a player. In the case of it being due to injury, I don't think a substitute could be brought on, even if the team had not used all their subs during the game itself, given that play has technically ended..... ChrisTheDude 08:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Can a player who has taken a penalty in normal time (90 + Extra Time) be included in the initial five for the penalty shootout? Or can he take a penalty kick only after the remaining 10 players have taken their kicks?

No, he can still be included. Only if you've taken a penalty in the penalty shootout must you wait for the other 10 (or less, depending on if you had a send off etc.) players. Killfest2 08:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This is just a confusion of terms; penalty kicks don't have any relevelance to "kicks from the penalty mark" in the shootout, they are seperate things governed by seperate rules. Avoiding vague terms like "penalties" will help to avoid confusion. Pimlottc 14:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternatives section

In another proposed alternative, the penalty shootout would remain, but would never be the final act of the game. Instead it could come before extra time and still only function as a tie-breaker if the former would prove to be indecisive. That way, the team that lost the penalty shootout would still be able to make up for the loss during normal field play. - I've never ever heard this (truly bizarre) idea discussed, this definitely needs a citation..... --ChrisTheDude 08:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I have heard this before. Don't think it ever got off the drawing board though. The idea is that the team that loses is encouraged to attack and try and win. Unfortunately, it also encourages the team that won the pre-match shootout to play for a draw! So that is probably why it never got any further. I've also heard proposals to replace penalty-shoot-outs, the best one being to remove two players (one from each team) every 10 minutes until a goal is scored. Or have one player (from the centre circle) against keeper and one defender. The main problem with these is that at the end of extra time, all the players are very tired. It would be nice to have something in this article (sourced, obviously) on the "other" proposals. Carcharoth 09:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh. The "remove players at progressive intervals" is already in the article. Carcharoth 09:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I can just picture some non-league game going to 80 minutes of "extra extra time", with each side left with three half-dead players trying to run the length of the entire pitch.....--ChrisTheDude 09:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Maybe allow extra substitutions during extra-time? A bit disadvantage of extra-time is that you see players cramping up, passing the ball around, and just generally running the clock down until penalties. Not all the time, but quite a lot of the time. In the World Cup at least, with those big squads of 23(?) players, you could effectively have a half-hour replay match with lots and lots of substitutions (say 5) after normal play. That should be enough fresh legs to see some attacking play to win the game. I thnk they already allow the three substitutes to be drawn from any of the other players in the squad, rather than having to nominate three outfield substitutes before the match starts. Carcharoth 12:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

You're quite correct, all 12 players not in the starting line-up are available as subs these days.... ChrisTheDude 12:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

What is really needed is a way to discourage draws in knock-out competitions (they are already discourageed in leagues by the points system). Say a draw happens and a side wins a penalty shootout to progress. Apart from in the final, you can have "punishments for the next match" for the side that wins with a penalty shootout. For example - they have to win their next game, and if the game is drawn they are out. That might encourage the side they face to play for a draw, but the "draw and you are out" penalty then passes on to them! So all sides are encouraged to play for a win. Hmm. Can I patent/copyright this idea. It seems to have some potential! The problem being when two sides meet who are "out if you draw" - so sadly it looks like this won't work. Carcharoth 09:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

How about this for a way to do tiebreaks: during the extra time sessions, or in additional extra time sessions, continue playing as normal. However, expand the goal size by 1 or 2 meters. If nobody scores, expand the goal size again. This technique has the advantages of (1) not changing the nature of the game, just making it easier to score in overtime, and (2) encouraging more aggressive play, as the more aggressive team will have the greatest opportunity to take advantage of the improved scoring chance. The main disadvantage is the special equipment that would be necessary, but at professional and world cup levels, that should not be a major issue. jmauldin68 12 July 2006

[edit] Insufficient context template added

How come? ChrisTheDude 13:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't clear either. I took it down as part of my rewrite. --Guinnog 09:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry, I'm new.

Tried to revert Vandalism, accidentally deleted formatting. Let me take a another look. Foster2008 22:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PSO? PEN? abbreviations

What's with using the abbreviation PSO? I have always seen either PEN used, or just AET and the score. --anskas 15:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that this abbreviation had been used extensively in the 2006 World Cup article, but I'd certainly never seen it before. In UK reports the standard usage is certainly of the style "Gillingham 1-1 Manchester United (AET, Gillingham won 4-3 on pens)" - ChrisTheDude 08:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Shall we change the article? - anskas 16:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what the normal convention is, but I assume the reason PSO is used on the World Cup article here is to avoid confusion between penalty kicks and penalty shootouts. Pimlottc 20:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it would seem that PSO is used elsewhere on wikipedia, and on some websites, notably here. So I guess we just leave it. - anskas 23:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)