Talk:Objectivity (philosophy)

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• Talk:Objectivity/Archive 1

• This article survived a deletion vote in February, 2006. here

[edit] Subsection removed and self-reverted

I removed the section on Ethical naturalism, which was picking up on Ethics and was starting to get pretty far afield for the Objectivity article--very POV and not at all informative as it was written, in any event. This section you propose to add to, on Objectivism and probability, has possibilities ;-) ...Kenosis 03:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The section on Naturalism was paraphrased from the article of the same name from Macmillan, 1967, I just haven't had time to add my sources yet. I added it to the article to accentuate the distinction between factual and evaluate discourse without having to refer to the objective/subjective dichotomy. The first sentence was from the wiki article Moral (naturalism). I thought it was a good median of Ethical Objectivism and Ethical Subjectivism. Feel free on the section on objectivism and probability. The section on constructivism is tenuous, at least in name. Amerindianarts 03:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I'll go revert then. ...Kenosis 04:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

If there is something you might see as POV I would be interested. More detail for clarity?? Is citations sufficient?Amerindianarts 04:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I just saw your last edit; I think that helps bring it back into the ballpark. As to that other section on probability: I haven't looked into it quite yet, but I'd be willing to hazard a guess that there may be some superb material in the current literature related to probability in the quest for intersubjective verifiability and thus objectivity, especially since science depends on probability so heavily (confidence intervals, margins of error, statistical significance, etc., of observed, measured and tested phenomena) even in sciences such as psychology. Indeed psychology may be a good place to start looking, because among their most challenging tasks in the last half-century — handled very impressively I might add — has been to further clarify this issue and reconcile the relationship of subjectivity with the objectivity. But I'm about to call it a night; take care for now...Kenosis 04:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Go for it. Amerindianarts 05:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

This is going to be a challenge. As there is no separate article on objectivism in the traditional philosophical use, and because objectivism has today become so closely tied to Ayn Rand in the popular usage, there is a potential minefield to be negotiated. But I imagine it can be done with due diligent attention to the subtle semantic details...Kenosis 16:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, objectivism was a term first used by Frege in the 19th century in reaction to Kant, and doesn't have much of a history. Like objectivity, as a concept it may have more history, but it has to be researched and dug out. I don't really think of Ayn Rand as anything but an author, not a philosopher. If you think the section is not important enough-delete it. Amerindianarts 18:52, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem I'm running into at the moment has to do with the more traditional usage of "objectivism" within ethics, which refers to the discussion of of an objectivist approach to ethics--one of the three basic positons already sectioned out in the existing article on Objectivity (philosophy). This will take a bit to sort through, but as I said, I think with caution it's do-able so as to arrive at something reasonably stable and not a complete POV magnet. I'll research it gradually over the next week or so, and report back to you. As to the probability and objectivity part, that would be easier for me to write from memory than to research right now. But, also quite do-able...Kenosis 01:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Parsimony" and "Objectivity and Subjectivity" sections

I added these sections and they are open for discussion.

It has been suggested that samplings of "objectivity" as used by individual philosophers be added. This can be difficult, I think, without considerable original work and possible POV. Even if extremely well-cited, the sources themselves may be tainted and in an article discussing "objectivity", it may compromise the subject matter. For example, Plato was an important figure as far as introducing the notion of discourse or dialogue as essential for discerning the objective. But he was also considered, for instance, by the medieval philosophers as an "exaggerated realist", and by Leibniz and others as an "idealist". Placing Plato in a particular school of thought (as well as Kant and many others) can be controversial. Another alternative is a section on schools of thought with contrast and balance observed if individual philosophers are placed in any particular category. Nonetheless, it could be done. I would, however, propose changing the section on "Constructivism" to "Historical variations" on the concept in philosophy with the warning that the section may become lengthy and cumbersome, and that parsimony be closely observed.Amerindianarts 16:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

This is not an article on objectivity and non-philosophers. This article WILL NOT be edited under a guise of another Rand article. The best that Rand can hope for in this article is mentioning how her objectivist philosophy should not be confused with objectivity in philosophy. The inclusion of her POV comments about Kant in the recently reverted edit lacks objectivity.Amerindianarts 23:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] neo-objectivism

What is neo-objectivism? --Gbleem 04:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Google it! Amerindianarts 07:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] recent reverts

Dear Amerindianart: you seem to be engaged in a series of wholesale reverts of some recent changes I made to this article, which was a huge incoherent mess. I'm going to put them back in, since you haven't, I think, adequately defended your reverts, and because this article--as you've mentioned above--needs help. I will not list every point, but I'll put a few choice selections on here to explain why my changes were improvements. Cheers.130.49.146.31 13:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I wrote:

Objectivity is the trait of being uninfluenced by certain factors,

such as personal opinions or value judgments. A fact (such 

as that the sky is blue, or that the Mona Lisa is beautiful) is objective if its truth or falsehood is independent of what any person thinks of it. A source of knowledge (such as science or religion), or a person (such as a witness, or a scientist) is objective if the claims they make are based on and reflect objective facts.

You preferred:

Objectivity has various meanings in philosophy, and is surely one of the most important philosophical problems, since it concerns the epistemological status of knowledge, the notion of objective reality and the question of our subjective relationship to other objects in the world.

(1) I refer to objectivity: a trait, not a word. This is, if at all possible, the preferred way to begin an article. You refer to the word, saying it has several meanings without giveng them, and in the same sentence refer to it as a problem. (i) Are you talking about the word or the problem? (ii) What problem? There are certainly plenty of problems about objectivity. But I don't know what it means to say that it is a problem.

(2) I elaborate the primary definitions of the term: what it is for a fact, a thing, or a person, to possess objectivity. There is nothing that I can see that is contentious in these definitions. You merely say what objectivity "concerns". You define it partly in terms of objective reality which is about as circular as you can get.

(3) I use straightforward, familiar examples (the sky, the Mona Lisa, scientists). You use big expansive phrases that mean nothing to a layman (nor to me either, despite a fair background in these matters): "the question of our subjective relationship to other objects in the world" (a) It concerns Which question about that relationship? (You say the question: which one is that?) (b) What major philosophical issue doesn't involve our relationship with the world? There's no point in a definition that doesn't distinguish your topic from other topics.

Shall I go on, or will you please read what I write more carefully? 130.49.146.31 13:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

And in answer to your specific remark on that edit: You asked how aesthetic facts can be independent of what anyone thinks, and call it nonsense. Perhaps it is. Believe it or not, a number of philosophers have claimed exactly this. Plato comes to mind. THe notion of "music of the spheres", the perfect music of the heavens but which could not be heard by anyone, was all the rage in thet Middle Ages.

I agree that the article is a mess. I disagree with your edits, and including the most recent revision of your edits I have explained. Your intro paragraph was way off the mark. Like I said, it was worse than the first and upon careful reading was philosophical incoherent. I gave the reason. You also treat realism amd objectivism as interchangeable. They are not. You also treated objectivity as independent of subjectivity. It is not. Subjectism would hold an element of truth in its position and therefore an objective approach. Objectivity may then be based on "personal feelngs" or perceptions if those perceptions are reasonably universal. For this reason "subjectivity" cannot be said to diametrically oppose "objectivity". It also makes no sense to use aesthetic or moral examples to state that objectivity is independent of value judgments. Thus, the statement "'Mona Lisa is beautiful' is objective if its truth or falsehood is independent of what any person thinks of it" is paradoxical. If there were a reality which stated the Mona Lisa was not beautiful, then everyone's opinion that it is beautiful would be false. This makes no sense. It is beautiful exactly because of what someone thinks about it. Objectivity does not change that. The article is bad but that is not license for changes that are not consistent with an objective approach to objectivity in philosophy. I explained my revisions as needed. Terms like "many" are called "Wiki weasel words, also. Check the guidelines. This article must be objective.Amerindianarts 13:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, your last edit referring to "realism" replacing those "meaningless sentences" and replacing the current edit will always be reverted. You need to read it, and understand it. Amerindianarts 13:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"Questions about objectivity make up many central strands of philosophy. Philosophers dispute (under metaphysics)" This makes no sense. The central strands of philosophy are its branches, and the dispute is not limited to metaphysics. The ontological status of reality is one aspect, but objectivity also concerns logic and epistemology and what we say about things. What you say is that an object can be true or false. It cannot be true or false. Only reference to it.Amerindianarts 13:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

This is entirely ambiguous. What are you trying to say "Taking an objective approach to an issue thus means having due regard for known relevant facts, attempting to attain as much information as possible, reasoning logically, and avoiding appeal to personal feelings. If relevant evidence is denied or falsified, an objective approach can become impossible. " Are you saying that if evidence can be falsified it should still be relevant? If evidence is disputed or even falsified, is this tantamount to reasonable doubt. What are you really trying to say?Amerindianarts 13:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"In the sciences objective knowledge is generally sought after. On the other hand, some topics are considered by many to be inherently subjective: judgments of beauty or moral value, for example. If a fact is simply subjective, then it is not possible to make an objective judgment on it. Some philosophers hold that subjective evaluations are better, and more appropriate, to fields such as art and morals". As I stated before, this article needs to be written to state the comprehensive, and this sentence eliminates any theory of objectivity in subjectivism, e.g. morals, which many philosophers do adhere to. Metaphysically, Berkeley may have been wrong, but if he wasn't, your formulation would exclude it. Can't do that here. Amerindianarts 13:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I began by editing your comments, and I did not revert or remove them all. You are now in violation of the three revert rule, and I will report it. Amerindianarts 14:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I see that you're trying, but you're really not getting it right. (1) My paragraph was not incoherent, let alone "philosophical incoherent", and I'm afraid you don't address most of my points at all. (2) I do not consider realism and objectivism interchangeable: I treat them as having a certain overlap, which they do. (3) This, I'm afraid, is not a meaningful sentence: Subjectism would hold an element of truth in its position and therefore an objective approach., or if it is one, it is not intelligible enough for an article. You are, and you should not be, advancing your own philosophical theories here. (4)I offer sentences as examples not to say that they are, or even could be true or false independently of human judgment, but to indicate what it would mean for them to have such a status--possible or not. (5) More importantly, whether or not you like or believe it, there have been major philsoophers who have held exactly this: that the facts about beauty do not depend on anyone's judgment. Plato springs to mind. You say: It is beautiful exactly because of what someone thinks about it. Now you are doing philosophy again! The response, given a million times, is this "Which person's thought makes the Mona Lisa beautiful?" or "If everyone dies, or forgot about it, would it stop being beautiful? Would it change?" But thBut my point is that the goal is to report, not philosophize: forgive my being so bold, but you are not good enough at that.

(6) "many" can be a weasel word. In this context, though, it reports a simple fact and stands in need only of citation. The use of surely in the version you keep putting back is much more objectionable.

On the next batch: (1) Are you appealing to some deep distinction between strands and branches? They're both figures of speech, , and I did not say that these questions arise only in metaphysics. They are characteristically metaphysical questions. I can't imagine how much simpler a sentence you want, than "Questions about x are central to field y". Note that (perhaps accidentally) you broke the quote in the middle of a sentence. (2) Nowhere do I say an object can be true or false. I am speaking about facts. Parse the sentence again. (3) The bit about "relevant evidence" was an attempt to salvage an earlier passage on "taking an objective approach", and it improves on it as it stands. The confused sentence you criticize was in the article before I made any changes, so please don't attribute it to me. (4) The sentence that "Some philosophers hold that . . ." does not rule anything out, because some philosophers do hold exactly that. You need to understand that there are disputes on these issues and that the appripriate way to convey them is to report those disputes, not to attempt to do philosophy here.

130.49.162.53 15:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Finally, let me explain the meaninglessness of that meaningless mess. You maintain:

Objectivism is thus inclusive of objects which we may not know about and are not the intended objects of mental acts. Objectivity requires defining truth, and the objects themselves are not true or false. Only references, or what we say about things, are true or false.

The first sentence may say something, if you work on expression. Right now it appears to say that objectivism--the theory--contains some objects we may not know about. (1) I assume you mean it applies to, or more precisely, postulates, supports, endorses, maintains, or affirms the existence of. Take your pick, but not "is inclusive of" (if for no reason other than to avoid the passive voice). (2) may not is in the wrong place. It's more sensible to say that the theory holds that there may be objects we don't know about, than that there are objects we may not know about. the second clause, stripped of the half-Meinong language, presumably means that we haven't thought of either. Avoid technical jargon when it's dispensible. (3) The next claim--objectivity requires defining truth--is manifestly false. The fact of objectivity--if fact it is--will be so regardless of whether we define anything. Perhaps you mean that we need to define truth in order to (a) understand objectivity, (b) formulate objectivism (c) understand objectivism, or (d) prove objectivism. Not one of these requires a definition of truth in any obvious way, and you don't explain why you think they do; and many prominent philosophers have claimed that truth cannot be usefully defined at all; not all of them have rejected the possibility of objectivity. (4) Objects aren't true or false: In one way this is trivially false. Many objects, paradigmatically written and spoken sentences, are true or false. Propositions, thoughts, beliefs, and claims, are also considered objects, depending on whom you ask. A prominent book on the logic of questions--by Nuel Belnap--suggests a way to treat questions as true or false. In another way, presumably the way you meant it, it's too trivially true to need mention. Are there many people under the impression that onions (for example) are, or might be, true or false. (5) "References" is being misused in this sentence. THe relevant count-noun meanings of the word are: a mention of something; a thing mentioned; a citation of a source; a source cited; an endorsement or statement of support; a person offering such a statement. What you want is perhaps the word claim, or assertion, or even statement.

Now stop claiming that I don't understand what you're saying. You're not expressing yourself adequately, or else you don't understand what you're saying.

[edit] Politics

Moved here for either rewrite or determination of relevance. Some standards of philosophy determine Marx and subsequent writers as social scientists and not necessarily philosophers. This article is not about politics of the social sciences, but objectivity in philosophy. If retained in might be renamed to suggest a broader view of the social sciences and relinguish its agenda in concentrating on ideology. It really is more appropriate to another field, as written.

"In political decision-making, ignoring relevant evidence or alternative interpretations could lead to policies which, although well-intentioned, have the opposite effect of what was intended. In this context, it is often argued that albeit democracy might hamper swift, decisive action, it is nevertheless the best guarantee that all relevant facts and interpretations are included in the process, resulting in policies with greater long-term benefit.

Taking an objective approach often contrasts with arguments from authority, where it is argued that X is true because an authority Y says so. The presumption is that Y is an authority capable of taking the most objective approach. But it may be necessary to evaluate the view of Y against other authorities likewise claiming to take an objective approach. This is an important aspect of academic scholarly method in the modern sense.

Some Marxist authors, such as Georg Lukacs, have argued that true objectivity is in fact achieved only by dialectical materialism, which would be the only "science" to have a perspective on the "totality" of the historical process. Beyond the polemical intent in criticizing "bourgeois science", Lukacs' famous book, "History and Class Consciousness" (1923) was a powerful critique of Kant's critique and of his "bourgeois conception of science", which induced an unbridgeable gap between the subject and the object of knowledge, and thus condemned reason to the knowledge of simple phenomena. Thus, Kant believed that reality ("noumenon") could not be objectively known. Lukacs criticized this idealist conception which set aside the social and historical process, which, according to his project of an "ontology of the social being", is in fact the ultimate reality." Amerindianarts 22:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other uses

This paragraph is controversial. Mathematics can be introspective and to claim that it is subjective defies sense. We can envision a perfect triangle in introspection and it may not conform perfectly to a triangle in reality, but this does not mean it is subjective knowledge. A geometer may still insist upon its objectivity.

Introspective knowledge, knowledge about one's own feelings and mental states, is also called "subjective knowledge" (and is contrasted with "objective knowledge" of objects outside oneself. Here "objective" indicates the subject matter rather than the status of the knowledge ("subjective" knowledge of oneself might still be "objective" in the sense of "unbiased".) In marketing and consumer behavior studies "subjective knowledge" is a person's evaluation of the quality of his own knowledge.Amerindianarts 22:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technical accessibility

This article uses Boolean logic symbols without linking to any articles that provide background on that subject, or providing background itself. -- Beland 03:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)