User talk:Neoptolemos

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[edit] Avdela

In your edit comment to Manakis brothers, you say

Mentioning the Ottoman political division Avdela was part of doesn't make sense.

On the contrary, when they were born, Avdela was in the Ottoman Empire. It is anachronistic to say tha t they were born in Greece or in West Macedonia. It would be just as silly as saying that Proclus was born in Istanbul, Turkey or that William the Conquerer was born in France. --Macrakis 16:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for contacting me in order to resolve what seems to be a quarrel of encyclopedic nature. Nevertheless, we are not debating on the exact place of their birth and that seems to be the error of your examples about Proclus and William the Conqueror. I don't think there is anything wrong in mentioning where the Manakis brothers' hometown lies today. After all, it's a common practice in encyclopedias to include short, up to date information in brackets about the current situation of a settlement or a toponym in general. Such a thing is widespread throughout the Wikipedia itself.

Where would you tell someone that the battlefield of Issus is located? Cilicia or Turkey? I 'd say both in order to be historically precise as well as helpful to a modern reader whose ancient geography knowledge might not be sufficient. I also hope that you understood that classifying the brothers solely as Vlachs is a generalization. Of course, one of Wikipedia's greatest advantages is the existence of the highlighted internal links, so that people can be redirected fast and further informed. In such a context, our debate is a little pointless I believe.

Anyway, if you insist that my edit was wrong, I will not be further involved in such a dispute. It will be a minor display of antihellenic intentions compared to others I 've seen on the Internet.--Neoptolemos 00:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

We are discussing an editorial decision. This is not a question of "wrong" and certainly not a question of "antihellenic" (!). It is a question of discussing history in an unbiased, encyclopedic way. I don't have any problem with mentioning incidentally that Avdela is now in Greece in the Manakis brothers article, but it really doesn't seem very relevant. After all, in Wikipedia, unlike in a traditional encyclopedia, if the reader wants additional information about Avdela, it is only a click away.

More generally, it seems to me very important to avoid interpreting the past through present lenses. Avdela is now in Greece, but when the Manakis brothers were born, it was not, and that should be clear to readers. That's all. --Macrakis 03:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Civil

May we remind you to be civil and to not form personal attacks or edit wars through your or others' comments; doing so will only cause tension and annoyance.--Aldux 12:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I appreciate that your warning was expressed in a civil and polite manner in order to avoid misunderstandings. I admit that I got angry regarding edits in the Epirus periphery. But I assure you, as a proud Aromanian native of Epirus, that the information you have been adding is misleading and provocative in a way. Let me know firsthand, that there is no such thing as Aromanian national identity in Greece.

Aromanians tend to be proud of their origin and culture, as it is reflected in their close family relations, festivals and many other things. However, there is absolutely no tendency to identify as something different among Aromanian populations, at least in Epirus, where I come from. I would like you to respect my view on this issue, since I can have a clearer image that corresponds to reality.

The Cham Albanians were violently driven out of Greece since it is a historical fact that many of them acted as local gendarmes and on the behalf of Italian and later German forces of occupation in the region of Thesprotia. The massive expulsions took place as a reaction to what people perceived as typical Cham behavior. Moreover, the sentences I added about those Romanians who conducted research in Epirus in 1994 and found NO present Albanian speakers comes from the article about Cham Albanians, with an external link to a club of Aromanians in the USA.

After all, the Greek population in southern Albania was larger than that of Chams in Greece and I must inform you that they suffered a lot during the regime of Enver Hoxha.--Neoptolemos 13:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'm not touchy; and yes, I have a good knoledge of the Cham issue, as I once worked on it to calm tensions and add sources (I'm very active in artricles relating to the Balkan area, you see). But your hostility to the word minority doesn't make sense; the Vlach and Arvanite editors we have are proud to be Greek, but are also proud of their cultures. Anyways, my Vlach friend told us that there are some Arvanites in Epirus, and more Vlachs. Please believe me I have no hostility towards Greeks (an anti-Greek Aromanian even accused me of being really a Greek pretending to be an Italian), on the contrary, it's the country I love most (after my own ;-)). But I will stubborn, if necessary, in promoting wikipedia policy; and remember that the edits that angered you were made not only by me, but also by ChrisO, a widely respected administrator.--Aldux 17:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)