Talk:Microsoft Office Open XML

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Contents 1 Merge discussion 2 Openness 3 Old discussion 4 Complete overhaul. 5 Requested move 5.1 Survey 5.2 Discussion

[edit] Merge discussion

Well I agree...sort of. If the resulting name will be Microsoft Office Open XML. The WordprocessingML is about the format for Microsoft Word only but somehow also covers the other applications from the Office suite. --seweso 11:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I am the one who created the WordprocessingML enty, I have even changed the name tow or three times. It seems in constant flow, I am under the impression that the name has no really stabilaised yet. I think the name we should use in WP is the one used by MS Marketing. Or according to you suggestion we should add a paragraph in the article mentionning in what context WordprocessingML is used. Maybe this terms will be abandonned alltogether by MS. --Khalid hassani 14:35, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Is the WordprocessingML likely to get more content? Right now, it's really just five sentences of content, mostly duplicated in Microsoft Office Open XML, and so should be merged. Lisamh 02:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

That article could wel be deleted or just left as a stub. The limited info in the article has no real added value in this article. Possibly when the format will be widely used after the release of MS Office 2007 someone might be interested to put down some info on the separate markup languages that exist in OOXML hAl 10:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Openness

I think the issue of "Openness" warrants an own section on this page.

This would include the question whether OpenXML is compatible with the GPL, which I think is a relevant issue that deserves to be covered in some more detail.

(I don't have an opinion yet: I'm still trying to figure out whether OpenXML is GPL-compatible as this has been subject of some heated debate, that's why I came here ;)).

I just found the OpenDocument vs. Microsoft Office Open XML licensing page. This has some relevant information that I think would be interesting to add here, for those who are not so interested in ODF but just want to know what they can and cannot do with OpenXML.

I think a link to OpenDocument vs. Microsoft Office Open XML licensing at the bottom of this page would be relevant.

This article has some POV needing editing and move to the OpenDocument debate page, which covers all the discussion on what OASIS and Microsoft do (or fail to do). I'll do the editing as soon as I get some time.--- Louie 16:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old discussion

I'm removing these links from the main article:

• Embrace, extend and extinguish - this is a new format, which is not based on any previous, so EEE is not applicable
• Vendor lock-in - again, new format, not applicable
• Microsoft: Lying bastards after all - the linked article contains no analysis or useful information, and does contain vulgarities

The first two apply: OpenXML is already phase 2 of EEE: OpenDocument has already been embraced and extended; phase three (deployment) is planned to lead to extinction... Louie 16:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No, MOOX is not an embracement of OpenDocument, but an implementation of roughly the same idea. That's a difference. --Raboof 14:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, like JScript is not an embracement of JavaScript, but an implementation of roughly the same idea; and ActiveX is not an embracement of Java, etc... How weird, they came up with the very same idea after bailing out from their sponsored OASIS project, some five years after the birth of SXW (OpenOffice format)! Once again, Sun sets the path to innovation, and Microsoft sabotages to its own advantage.--- Louie 16:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

ActiveX isn't a language or execution environment, Jlrn7. It's a component architecture. Unlike your JScript/JavaScript comparasin, they are entirely different things. Warrens 16:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. I was thinking on something else then... Louie 17:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

JScript isn't an embracement of JavaScript. (MS) JScript, (Netscape) JavaScript and (Macromedia/Adobe) ActionScript are all, if you have to use the term, embracement of ECMAscript, to which their respective creators added specific features or in other words, extended. OpenXML is not an embracement of ODF, ODF would have had to be extended if it had to support all of MS Office's features. Rather they chose to implement the XML format from scratch. Btw, Office already has an XML format in Office 2003, in market 4 years back. --soum^সৌমোyasch 17:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

---

What new format? The format represents an evolution of the Office document formats. I mean, it represents the way Microsoft created their Office suite, and it is the next step from the Office 2003 xml schema. It is the same crap just wrapped in xml, nothing more. Further more, there is a percieved cheap migration path between the current format and the new format. And data exchange between other formats will be hard/imposible because the whole format must be implemented. And ianal but legally it might all prove to be hard/imposible also. *That* will ensure vendor lock-in. This way they embrace and extend and extinguish the whole move to 'open' formats. I will re-add the links if i do not get a more elaborate answer.

Ooh I will include a link to a page with better use of words: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1894039,00.asp --seweso 22:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Seweso please stop pushing your agenda and try keeping this entry NPOV :)

There is no such thing as a NPOV! I understand that the article should make the internal links look...well...logical. I will gather some technical and juridical proof that this format does give Microsoft Vendor-lockin. I thought it was obvious that Microsoft will never give up its crown-jewels. I would like to open people's eyes. XML seems to imply openness but that is not always the case. You can put as much proprietary information in XML as you wish (like ole/active-x binary data). And legally, well IANAL but what i read about it doesn't spell good things. That is vendor lock-in. And even if this is the first format from Microsoft which doesn't employ vender lock-in then it is still relevant reading material, agree? And I think you must agree that vendor lock-in should be the most important subject of this article....right? --seweso 08:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there is no such thing as NPOV. No, it does not imply it is alright to infuse one's agenda in this informational resource. I do understand that all things Microsoft and anti-Microsoft rival religious topics in the polarity of people's POVs, yet more reason to strive and keep opinions leashed and information balanced.

Have a look here OpenDocument licensing for a comparaison between ODF and Microsoft Office Open XML licencesing --Khalid hassani 15:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Khalid, you need to update your analysis - as of today it is based on outdated opinions from RMS and other very opinionated folks, still referring to the first Microsoft's attempt on Open XML format licensing terms. The new terms are much more liberal, in fact, more so than Sun's disclaimer on their ODF IP. Help yourself to Brian Jones blog for more information.

There is probably a lot of FUD going on, on each side, do you have an official MS link, or better an FAQ where the license is clearly and unambiguously explained ? in Which case we need to add it to the OpenDocument licensing entry --Khalid hassani 12:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Brian Jones *is* Microsoft voice when it comes to Open XML format. How more official do you want it? For all I see OpenDocument licensing is full of mostly baseless (and often outdated) claims about Open XML merits, including licensings. You can at least try balancing these with opinions from the other side.

[edit] Complete overhaul.

I thoroughly changed the article.

Removed a lot opiniated text.

Added a seprate paragraph about Standardization

Added a seprate paragraph about Licensing

Added a format description including some stuff about relation/hyperlinks and embedded media

Added a software adaptation paragraph

Cleaned up the links section. Removed a lot of negative commenting links mainly because they were based on outdated info about the standardization and/or licensing.

Hope you all agree this is a lot more straightforward and less npov. My english is only moderate so please feel free to correct it --HAl 11:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree this is now more straightforward.

I still find it strange, however, that this article uses specific qualifications such as "Microsoft maintains" and "Microsoft has stated," whereas the Wikipedia entry on OpenDocument uses general language such as "some argue" and doesn't ever say whose opinion is being expressed in phrases such as "intended to provide an open alternative" or "without any implementation barriers."

Why is the Open XML entry full of qualifications and attributions, while the OpenDocument entry presents similar types of information as fact without saying whose opinion is being expressed? I'm with Microsoft, so if I were to change anything in the OpenDocument entry I'm sure some would feel that's inappropriate, but the lack of consistency in editorial style is pretty striking and seems to reflect a strong pro-Sun/anti-Microsoft sentiment. Hardly encyclopedic, in my opinion.

- Doug Mahugh, Microsoft131.107.0.103 17:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It must be said that the article about OpenDocument is less objective than I would like to see it as well. Phrases like "some argue" should be acompanied by citations and preferbly should be listed as for example "the Opendocument fellowship argues". If I have the time I will clean it up somewhat as well but I have less info on the ODF format as I lack a good source of ODF format analysis.

I think there wouldn't be a problem if you editted the Opendocument article if your changes would reflect opinions of independant sources and you could site those sources as well. Else I would refer you to the discussion page of the Opendocument article where you could voice certain concerns with the objectivty of the article or with the correctness of the content. People like me that have no affiliation to either MS or OpenOffice will pick that up and might agree (or not) and could discuss and edit the article accordingly (or not). I would however suggest that you register a nick and list on your user page that you have some affiliation to MS. hAl 20:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)