Talk:Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)

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This article was nominated for deletion on October 11, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 Deletion debate 2 Do not delete at this time 3 Fixing the article 4 Context 5 Rabbi Bick?

[edit] Deletion debate

I don't see why we need this article, in light of the fact that we already have the Zhvill article. Please convince me not to put a delete tag on it.--Meshulam 11:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you -- I'm new to wikipedia and in looking through the various Hasidic dynasties and clicking on Mezbuz in the list I found no information at all about the place which was after all the Baal Shem Tov's rebbestrive and therefore the source of Hasidus. In trying to fill some of that in, the only way to 'update' and make it somewhat relevant to the present and accurate was to link it to the Zviller in Boston who is actually the Zvhil-Mezbuz Rebbe and whose 'real' lineage through the males in the family is from Mezbuz going back to R' Boruch and the Baal Shem Tov. The Zvhil side comes from his grandfather's father-in-law who his grandfather succeeded and became rebbe in his father's lifetime (which was a Chernobyl practice from his mother and grandparents who were cousins of my own grandparents). So rather than have a blank hole about Mezibuz, where the Baal Shem Tov, R' Boruch'l, and their descendants until the Zviller's great grandfather held court, I tried to fill it in as best as I could. Also, the Rebbe's grandfather was Zviller Rebbe only until his own father died in Mezbuz, at which time he became Zviller-Mezbuz Rebbe, so I felt we should also round out the picture with the Mezbuz side. Hope that explains it -- let me know if you need more. --ChosidFrumBirth 17:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why we need to have a page that mirrors both the Zhvill page, and the Zhviller Rebbe's page. I am proposing that it be deleted. --Meshulam 21:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point of view, but not only is this page different from those even though it relates to some of the same individuals, but without it there is absolutely no information on the place where the Baal Shem Tov began Hasidus, and no information or links on the descendants of that line. Please reconsider. Thank you. --ChosidFrumBirth 09:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I am very glad to see that this article will not be deleted at this time. Wikipedia was lacking an article about the hometown of the Besht and its subsequent Hasidic dynasties and I was glad to see it included.

[edit] Do not delete at this time

Meshulam: You should avoid this kind of move (the hasty nomination to delete) because it's a slippery slope and could lead to the nomination for and deletion of similar articles about smaller Hasidic dynasties - by people who are not experts and don't care - with unintended consequences. Votes to delete are open to the world and you are inviting people who have no idea what this topic is about at all to cast a vote, which is very unfair and lacking insight. It seems that you may have been better off trying to add a {{merge to}} template or considered MERGING the material at some point perhaps and WAITED (at least a month!) to do so. You should also have first started a discussion at a number of places where people who know something about this topic could have given their intelligent input, such as at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week. Or you could have contacted other editors who deal with topics like this to solicit their views. This action of your is extreme and I do not condone it. I urge you to withdraw this nomination. Thank you. (I am cross-posting this message on a couple of relevant places, to get people's attention.) IZAK 10:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fixing the article

The article has some serious issues with POV and OR. I am going to try to fix some of those problems.--Meshulam 21:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you -- it needed that. Great job. I will make some minor corrections. --ChosidFrumBirth 23:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Context

The article has some serious context issues. The authors should put together some information (that complies with POV and OR) that gives a context to the numerous names that are dropped in the article.

• Firstly please sign your comments with the four tildes ~~~~ so that we can know who is saying things around here. Secondly, while you are essentialy correct, most articles relating to the Category:Hasidic dynasties have material in them that will need to be double-checked and sourced even more over time. Finally, because so much of Hasidism is based on well-known "oral histories" (but sometimes obscure stories) care should be taken that these oral histories and stories are at least placed on the record and when they are written out that is when the process of double checking them and re-cehcking them can begin, which will time-consuming, but ultimately rewarding as it will provide a good encyclopedia on the subject for those who want to know more about it but would never find it anywhere else. IZAK 05:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Bick?

is this the place to mention Rabbi Moshe Bick zt"l, and his son Rabbi Avraham Yehoshua Bick, shlit"a, the Mezhbuzher Rebbe of Boro Park? Itzik18 07:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably not - it's not part of the same dynasty, and I think he is the Mezhbuz Rov (and poisek for Skwer Boro Park), not Rebbe. --ChosidFrumBirth 09:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that if a noted Rov has a connection with a Hasidic dynasty it is logical and acceptable that he be mentioned in a sub-section in this article, such as "People associated with Medzhibozh" or "Other notable rabbis associated with Medzhibozh." However if a rabbi or Rov is notable enough in his own right he can have an article devoted to him exclusively. This would be a good topic to bring up with editors at Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week. IZAK 09:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)