Talk:Louisiana Baptist University

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This article was nominated for deletion on November 27 2005. The result of the discussion was NO CONSENSUS. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Archives
Archive One of Pre-Turkman/Gastrich era discussion. Archive Two of Turkman/Gastrich era discussion.

Contents 1 LBU States they are Not Accredited and Limitations 2 Golbu.com is a website owned by banned user Jason Gastrich 3 Weasel Words 4 Accreditation and "degrees" 4.1 North Dakota does not accept unaccredited degrees 4.2 New Jersey does not accept unaccredited degrees 4.3 Washington does not accept unaccredited degrees 4.4 Oregon does not accept unaccredited degrees 4.5 Indiana does not accept unaccredited doctorates 5 Honorary degrees 6 Gastrich at the AN/I board

[edit] LBU States they are Not Accredited and Limitations

Limited life credit is in line with practices at Regionally Accredited schools. See Excelsior (http://www.excelsior.edu) as an example. LBU does not offer entire degrees by Life Credit (allegation under diploma mill section of article). The BBFI approval is factual and they do not represent it as accreditation. They are blatant about their lack of accreditation (mentioning that they are NOT accredited several times and LIMITATIONS of their degrees). Your statement that the degrees are not valid is inaccurate. They have approval to issue degrees. Now, utility is another matter and they are open about limited utility. Statements that they have accreditation by fake accrediting agencies (allegation under diploma mill section) are blatantly false and that is why NO ONE can provide a reference from their site or catalogue to support the claim. They do not offer degrees by Life Credit. NO ONE can support that claim from LBU's web site or catalogue as it is FALSE.

Nordundsud 18:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)Nordundsud

You have violated WP:3RR, but since nobody warned you, you have not been blocked this time. Any further reversions (at all) will lead to a block for disruption. see your talk page. Just zis Guy you know? 18:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the warning. I realize that there must be an arbitration or complaint process. I find the bullying tactics rather interesting. If I post factual information and ask others to support their assertions and they cannot BUT yet we leave the inaccurate material because it suits a preconceived agenda....that is bullying. Then in spite of repeated requests for people to support their assertions with references (they did not because they cannot) I am threatened. Rather distasteful situation and accused of being a "socket puppet".

On another note, I looked over your edits this last time and at that point found them fair. Thank you! Nordundsud 18:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)Nordundsud

[edit] Golbu.com is a website owned by banned user Jason Gastrich

A "new user" Boggs_B. (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) inserted a worthless and poorly designed website www.golbu.com [1] After removing this shameless attempt to add something to make his worthless LBU "degrees" seem less like ink-jet paper, he added it again.[2] A quick domain search shows Jason Gastrich registered it and its servers are from the main Gastrich webpage. This is another violation of his lifetime ban. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jason Gastrich. --Jasonwatch 23:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

"Diploma mill: An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless" — Webster’s Third New International Dictionary

First, LBU clearly does not fit the definition for reasons listed above. You have to separate peronal opinions about unaccredited fundie schools from facts. Second is ACCTS even still in existence?? Cannot find the web site. These references may need to be removed from the LBU article. Third, you folks are obsessed with this Jason dude (fetish level). Enough already, the guy is errr....ummm..self explanatory. Not necessarily LBU's best grad but as someone on another board said "every school has one." Nordundsud 04:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)NordundsudNordundsud 04:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words

These are weasel words: "As such, its degrees may not be acceptable to employers or other institutions, and use of degree titles may be restricted or illegal in some jurisdictions." - JD — Possible single purpose account: Jack Delay (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

No, they are not. Those are clear cut facts that NON-accredited degrees may be illegal in certain places, and wikipedia does not play lawyer. Do not remove that again. Arbusto 16:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

First, don't tell me what to do. This isn't your encyclopedia. This is a group effort that will reach consensus on every issue. Next, if it's such a clear cut fact, then why don't you give a citation for it? Until you cite this "clear cut fact", I'm adding the weasel word header. The verbiage clearly falls under weasel words, as it uses examples from the very weasel word entry. - JD — Possible single purpose account: Jack Delay (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

OK, than, I will tell you what to do, and it's this: don't disrupt Wikipedia to make a point, and don't go slapping tags on articles which contain a neutral and factual statement which has been agreed as a standard disclaimer in articles on unaccredited schools, the {{unaccredited}} template. Guy 08:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I find it rather amusing that anyone (without an agenda) would question that a degree from an unaccredited institution might not be good enough to get someone employed or admitted to another institution of higher learning, just as it might not be good enough to allow the legal use of titles. With respect to LBU, in particular, we have an institution with a somewhat less than desirable reputation, unaccredited, and does not seek accreditation, and that engages in other uncommon practices (e.g., it does not provide the results of graduate "research" through conventional means). I'd be curious to see if there are any statistics available with respect to placement of graduate students in jobs in government or the private sector (other than the very narrow area of "ministry"). How many LBU grads are employed, in areas associated with their "degrees," at, oh, Lockheed-Martin? CitiBank? The United States government? May one with a master's or doctorate from LBU serve in the military as a chaplain (the answer to that one is "no"). These are all valid points to consider when one is trying to evaluate the value of an education obtained from any institution, let alone one that is not accredited. In the end, it isn't the invocation of "weasel words" (a phrase commonly used by Gastrich, by the way, and this is only one factor that exposes "Jack" as a Gastrich sock) to declare that a degree from an institution such as LBU may not be enough to get someone a job or into another educational institution. It's common sense. Meanwhile, here's a bit of commentary on the use of "weasel words" by Gastrich, himself, and how and why he uses them. - WarriorScribe 09:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accreditation and "degrees"

Below are some of states that have laws on the subject (taken from school accreditation talk page). Arbusto 17:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] North Dakota does not accept unaccredited degrees

Source: [3] (section 15-20.4-15.)

15-20.4-15. Unlawful to issue, manufacture, or use false academic degrees - Penalty. 1. It is unlawful for a person to knowingly issue or manufacture a false academic degree. A person that violates this subsection is guilty of a class C felony. 2. a. It is unlawful for an individual to knowingly use or claim to have a false academic degree: (1) To obtain employment; (2) To obtain a promotion or higher compensation in employment; (3) To obtain admission to an institution of higher learning; or (4) In connection with any business, trade, profession, or occupation. b. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a class A misdemeanor. 3. As used in this section, "false academic degree" means a document such as a degree or certification of completion of a degree, coursework, or degree credit, including a transcript, that provides evidence or demonstrates completion of a course of instruction or coursework that results in the attainment of a rank or level of associate or higher which is issued by a person that is not a duly authorized institution of higher learning. 4. As used in this section, "duly authorized institution of higher learning" means an institution that: a. Has accreditation recognized by the United States secretary of education or has the foreign equivalent of such accreditation; b. Has an authorization to operate under this chapter; c. Operates in this state and is exempt from this chapter under section 15-20.4-02; d. Does not operate in this state and is: (1) Licensed by the appropriate state agency; and (2) An active applicant for accreditation by an accrediting body recognized by the United States secretary of education; or e. Has been found by the state board for career and technical education to meet standards of academic quality comparable to those of an institution located in Page No. 6 the United States that has accreditation recognized by the United States secretary of education to offer degrees of the type and level claimed. CaliEd 00:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Jersey does not accept unaccredited degrees

New Jersey basically has the same law as North Dakota. New Jersey Statutes & Regulations Regarding Academic Degrees [4]

A person shall not append to his name any letters in the same form designated by the Commission on Higher Education as entitled to the protection accorded to an academic degree unless the person has received from a duly authorized institution of higher education the degree or certificate for which the letters are registered. For the purposes of this section, a duly authorized institution of higher education means an in-State institution licensed by the Commission on Higher Education or an out-of-State institution licensed by the appropriate state agency and regionally accredited or seeking accreditation by the appropriate accrediting body recognized by the Council on Postsecondary Education or the United States Department of Education.

It is sections: L.1986,c.87,s.3; amended 1994,c.48,s.36. CaliEd 00:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Washington does not accept unaccredited degrees

Washington State: "State senators unanimously amended and approved a bill that would make giving or using a fake or otherwise unaccredited degree a class C felony, a crime of fraud that could warrant five years in prison and a $10,000 fine."[5]

Here is the law: HB 2507 - 2005-06 :Prohibiting false or misleading college degrees.[6] (top of page three)

False academic credential" means a document that provides evidence or demonstrates completion of an academic or professional course of instruction beyond the secondary level that results in the attainment of an academic certificate, degree, or rank, and that is not issued by a person or entity that: (i) Is an entity accredited by an agency recognized as such by rule of the higher education coordinating board or has the international equivalents of such accreditation; or (ii) is an entity authorized as a degree-granting institution by the higher education coordinating board; or (iii) is an entity exempt from the requirements of authorization as a degree-granting institution by the higher education coordinating board; or (iv) is an entity that has been granted a waiver by the higher education coordinating board from the requirements of authorization by the board. Such documents include, but are not limited to, academic certificates, degrees, coursework, degree credits, transcripts, or certification of completion of a degree.

"Board" of course refers to the Washington Board of education. CaliEd 00:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oregon does not accept unaccredited degrees

Oregon does not accept unaccredited degrees, unless it is approved by Oregon State Office of Degree Authorization. [7]

583-050-0014

Unaccredited Degrees

(1) Users of unaccredited degrees may use the degrees in the following ways.

(a) Unaccredited degrees that have achieved ODA approval under ORS 348.609(d) can be used without a disclaimer.

(b) Unaccredited degrees that have not achieved ODA approval under ORS 348.609(d) can only be used with a disclaimer.

(c) Degrees issued by degree mills are invalid for use, with or without a disclaimer.

(2) Process for approval under ORS 348.609(d). A claimant of an unaccredited U.S. degree may submit to the Office information indicating that the school conferring the degree has the legal authority to issue degrees in another state and could reasonably be considered for approval in Oregon under OAR 583-030.

(a) A reasonable possibility of approval can be demonstrated by submitting to ODA the appropriate review fee and sufficient evidence that the unaccredited institution could meet ODA academic standards under OAR 583-030 for authorization to operate in Oregon if it chose to make such an application.

(b) ODA may, upon its own motion, evaluate an unaccredited institution and determine whether it has a reasonable chance to meet Oregon authorization standards without a degree user making such a request.

(c) If a request for evaluation under this section is not made to ODA within 30 days of notification that an unaccredited degree is being used contrary to Oregon law, the degree user's right to such a review is waived and ODA may pursue appropriate enforcement action. Degree users may, within the first 30 days, request up to 30 additional days for the purpose of gathering material necessary to apply for an evaluation.

(3) A claimant of a non-U.S. degree issued by a degree supplier not accredited by a U.S. accreditor may submit to the Office information proving that the supplier issuing the degree has the following characteristics.

(a) The supplier is operating legally as a degree-granting institution in its host country.

(b) The host country has a postsecondary approval system equivalent to U.S. accreditation in that it applies qualitative measures by a neutral external party recognized in that role by the government.

(c) The supplier has been approved through the demonstrable application of appropriate standards by the host country's accreditor equivalent.

(d) All degrees issued by the supplier are legally valid for use and professional licensure within the host country.

Stat. Auth.: ORS 348.609 Stats. Implemented: ORS 348.603, 348.609, 348.992 & SB 1039 (2005 OL, Ch. 546) Hist.: ODA 2-1998, f. & cert. ef. 8-12-98; ODA 1-2001, f. & cert. ef. 6-27-01; ODA 3-2003, f. 10-29-03, cert. ef. 11-1-03; ODA 4-2004, f. & cert. ef. 5-14-04; ODA 3-2005, f. 9-27-05, cert. ef. 9-30-05; Renumbered from 583-050-0031, ODA 4-2005, f. & cert. ef. 10-18-05

Thus, if you have an unaccredited degree it must be approved by the ODA. CaliEd 00:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indiana does not accept unaccredited doctorates

Indiana does not accept unaccredited doctorates unless they have a religious nature and "clearly identify the religious character of the educational program." [8]

SECTION 1. IC 24-5-0.5-12 IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVE UPON PASSAGE]: Sec. 12. (a) It is an incurable deceptive act for an individual, while soliciting or performing a consumer transaction, to claim, either orally or in writing, to possess a doctorate degree or use a title, a word, letters, an insignia, or an abbreviation associated with a doctorate degree, unless the individual: (1) has been awarded a doctorate degree from an institution that is: (A) accredited by a regional or professional accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education or the Council on Postsecondary Accreditation; (B) a religious seminary, institute, college, or university whose certificates, diplomas, or degrees clearly identify the religious character of the educational program; or (C) operated and supported by a governmental agency

SECTION 1. IC 24-5-0.5-12 IS

[edit] Honorary degrees

Should the honorary degrees be mentioned at all? Many colleges award these for publicity purposes or to award someone speaking at a particular ceremony. While many of these now listed come from dubious sources do they even merit inclusion with other people who did work at this school. It seems as if the honorary list is longer than the list of notable graduates, and the honorary people are listed, sadly, to give legitimacy to this unaccredited "school".

Unless the honorary degree received media attention or is notable in some way it should not be included. Arbusto 01:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to have them. -- — Possible single purpose account: Shog5 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic. 12:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Arbusto. There presence just gives an erroneous impression of legitimacy and honorary degrees aren't notable in general anyways JoshuaZ 13:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

As with the link Shog5 just added there are some WP:V issues with this that don't do any of the parties any favors. Arbusto 16:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the section since so much of it isn't verified. If those can meet WP:V and show to be notable they should be readded. As JoshuaZ, notes now honorary awards looks like an attempt to add legitimacy by associating more people with this. The graduates are indicative of what the school offers, and it should be left at that. Honorary and people who once spoke at the school and got an award don't need to be included in the same manner as graduates. Arbusto 05:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gastrich at the AN/I board

There was an discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive58#Jason_Gastrich on Gastrich's behavior and permanent block. Arbusto 15:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)