Talk:List of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu

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[edit] Special Mention

The ~~23rd~~24th entry in the list needs some special mention in that the Madras High Court ruled that J Jayalalithaa's swearing in as the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu was illegal and her rule be declared null and void from the date she assumed office. ~~It further ordered that the decisions taken by her during the said period can be considered for rollback.~~ So, technically, I don't know whether she can be listed as the Chief Minister for the said period without a special mention.

-- Sundar 09:13, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

Quoted from the Hindu news item:

A five-judge Constitution Bench (of the Supreme court), in a unanimous  verdict of 5-0, 
held a person who is convicted for a criminal offence and sentenced to imprisonment 
for a period of not less than two years cannot be appointed the Chief Minister of a 
State under Article 164 (1) read with (4) and cannot continue to function as such. In 
effect, the court rejected the argument that a popular mandate - or the `will' of the 
people - could override the Constitution. 

Holding that her appointment was not legal and valid, Mr. Justice S.P. Bharucha, 
speaking for himself and Mr. Justice Y.K. Sabharwal, said we are satisfied that in the 
appointment of Ms. Jayalalithaa as Chief Minister there has been a clear infringement
of a Constitutional provision and that a writ of quo warranto must issue. And 
Mr. Justice G.B. Pattanaik, speaking for himself and Mrs. Justice Ruma Pal, gave a
separate but concurring judgment as did Mr. Justice Brijesh Kumar.

-- Sundar 10:53, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

Ganesh, good effort. Please look into Footnote 2 and ensure that a reference is made to this important technicality in the 24th entry. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 08:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, Thanks. I will work on getting that referenced in-line (in row) tomorrow. - Ganeshk (talk) 08:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Madras Presidency

AFIK, the state became Tamil Nadu only after 1950. Till then it was Madras Presidency. If someone knows the exact dates, they can enter the info in the article. --Gurubrahma 13:39, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Note about creating stubs

The standard format for names with initials (I think) is like C. N. Annadurai. We should follow that for new articles. Tintin (talk) 08:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Foot notes and references

I have both foot notes and references on this article. They are conflicting. Can some please advise how to fix it? Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Fixed now. - Ganeshk (talk) 16:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Appointed vs Elected

I think before 1952(?), all CMs were appointed by Governor(or Viceroy). Please add a note to that effect. Universal suffrage came in the sencond-half of 20th century only. Also no election history is available in ECI website. Anwar 20:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Anwar, I noted the article per your suggestion. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 06:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colour coding

Good work, Ganesh. Can we somehow make the colour or some other [attribute] reflect the actual duration of the term so that it gives a better aggregate picture ? Leave it if it's asking for too much. Also, look at Anwar's suggestion above. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, Thanks. Are you looking for something like this? - Ganeshk (talk) 06:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Perfect. Would love to see such a thing here. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

That would be a seperate article. Right? - Ganeshk (talk) 15:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, Your wish is granted! :) Ganeshk (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help

Can some please find the political party that Kurma Venkata Reddy Naidu was part of? Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 08:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Found it. - Ganeshk (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

When India became independent in 1947, Madras Presidency became Madras State, comprising of Tamil Nadu, coastal Andhra Pradesh, northern Karnataka, and the southwest coast of Kerala.

Does South-West coast means Malabar ? If yes, it gives the wrong impression because Malabar is now North Kerala. Tintin (talk) 12:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I rephrased that sentence and removed ambiguity. - Ganeshk (talk) 20:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Under the States Reorganisation Act, 1956, the Madras State was further divided into the States of Kerala, Mysore and Madras. Hmmmm ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tintin1107 (talk • contribs) .

Tintin, I've tried to address the above issue. Feel free to bring a better tone to it. Can you also help by creating a factual article on Madras state? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 08:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Travancore-Cochin was separate from Madras. The rest of Kerala was with Madras. See this list. Anwar 08:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Madras state till 1956 ? Tintin (talk) 08:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Madras state existed until 1968, when it was renamed as Tamil Nadu. - Ganeshk (talk) 15:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nominate?

Is this article ready for WP:FLC? Please comment. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 00:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Great work, Ganesh. My only concern is the current redirect from Madras state to Tamil Nadu. Let's fix it and I'll do any copyediting required. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay. No problem. We should put it through a peer review first I think. - Ganeshk (talk) 13:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for a split

Copying Nichalp's message on my talk page.

The state of Tamil Nadu was not formed until 1968; the list includes Chief Ministers of Madras Presidency, a province of British India, and those of Madras State, which was formed after Indian independence in 1947, comprising of present day Tamil Nadu and parts of Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala.

I see a major objection here: Why list incumbents who never held the portfolio "Chief Minister of 'Tamil Nadu"? You'd have to justify the inclusion by using cogent phrases or have them removed.
Non-party: seems odd. Unafflilated?
Comment: 2 more tables can be added: A table on the CMs enjoying the most terms in office (descending), and parties enjoying the most terms in office. This would help clinch votes on the FLC.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 16:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I propose the list be split into three sections, Chief Ministers of Madras Presidency, Chief Ministers of Madras State and Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu.

* We could create two more articles, Graphical list of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu and Graphical list of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu showing relative term duration and link them under a Timeline section? Is this a good idea and should these be included in this same article?* For point 3, We could have a article by the name "Records of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu".

Thoughts? Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 16:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Having a separate article for records would seem to be an overkill. Why not include a graphical timeline link in List of popes (graphical)? =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I have added graphical timelines to the article. Let me know if its fine here or if it should move to a seperate article? Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 07:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Records section was added. Ganeshk (talk) 21:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest three lists as per the following page-definitions:

Madras state until 1956 was direct successor of Madras presidency (same territory and people), so that can be one list
Madras state in 1956-68 was just renamed Tamil Nadu in 1968. Again, they are the same and make for one list
A separate list for 'Madras state' (1947-68) to be created by culling from the above lists; write-up to make clear the change in borders that this state underwent in 1956.

Nominated CMs and periods of Presidents Rule can be marked differently in all lists. IMO, the three lists should be created as three different pages, cross-referenced, with a section in the Tamil Nadu page providing the umbrella narrative of history. Regards, ImpuMozhi 18:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The current presentation looks good. Instead of three, we can split it into two, list of Chief Ministers before and after Tamil Nadu was named. Cos, the info before it was named so, will remain static without much change. The info on CMs of Tamil Nadu will continue to increase over the next 20 or even 50 yrs for that matter.

And.. The light blue color representation of Congress looks somewhat weird. Can we use some other color? It would be great we could decide on one color for every national party and use them consistently in wikipedia. Plus, the font size in the graphical timelines look too small and cramped. Medium size would lift the strain off the eyes. Cheers. -- Chez ^{(Discuss / Email)} • 04:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The light blue color was already standardized and used in many articles. You can find standard party colors at Category:Party colours templates (India). We should use those so all articles have consistent look and feel. I have increased font size on the timeline per your request. I am waiting for more people to comment on the split up. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 05:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

If the consensus the light blue should change, the change needs to happen here and it will reflect in all articles. - Ganeshk (talk) 05:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Suppose we create a List of Mayors of Mumbai. Should that include the List of Mayors of Bombay, or should these be separate articles? I'd assume most would say there should be only one of them. IMHO similarly List of CMs of Madras State and List of CMs of Tamil Nadu should be the same article, Madras State was renamed Tamil Nadu in just the same way Bombay was renamed Mumbai. The carving out of territories into other states happened separately. In fact it might be similarly debatable whether we should have separate articles for Madras State, Andhra State, etc. — Bombay is just a redirect to Mumbai. -- Paddu 15:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vertical timeline

What is the purpose of the vertical timeline? Isn't it redundant with the 3 timelines before that? List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom (graphical) and List of popes (graphical) both don't have it. -- Paddu 19:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

They have it at Template:Timeline UK Prime Ministers. In the List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom article, the graphical lists are seperate pages and linked from the Timline seection. I was planning to do the same, but since this article is short, just added the graphical list to list itself. With regards to purpose, it gives a different view, and also shows major events such as indenpedence, creation of madras state, universal suffrage. More events like that can be added to that timeline. - Ganeshk (talk) 19:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Annadurai and Rajagopalachari image

I added the image to the Madras State section. Can anyone please check and confirm if it is okay to be used as Fairusein? Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 20:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chittoor and Chingelput districts

Currently, Chittoor district is in Andhra Pradesh, and Tiruvallur & Kanchipuram districts (parts of erstwhile Chengalpattu/Chingelput district) are in Tamilnadu. Hence, I wonder if what the article says the inverse of the actual situation regarding reorganisation of these districts. -- Paddu 21:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation for Kurma Naidu

The closest I could get to was here. It reads, "In 1937, Justice Party that was in power in the then Madras Province from 1921, except for a brief period, lost the elections to the Congress Party.". The brief period of time could be that of P. Subbarayan (assumption of mine). I think Justice party that was in power in 1937 was defeated in the july elections and Congress took over (more assumptions of mine). There is no direct reference to this person. What shall we do in this case? - Ganeshk (talk) 06:17, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This is tricky. Consult admons link Nichalp, I guess.--Dwaipayan (talk) 11:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The puzzle is solved by another source that states that Rajaji's was the first Congress government. So, together, these links say that Naidu belonged to the Justice Party. Let's state it as a footnote. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 14:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lead Section

I guess we need far more comprehensive lead section, that would summarise the change in the name of the state, carving out of other states and the records may be added as well. -- Chez ^{(Discuss / Email)} • 04:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Those details have been explained in each individual sections. List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom for example has a small lead section. - Ganeshk (talk) 05:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't hurt to have more flesh in the lead section. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serious issue

Later, on April 1, 1960, territories comprising of Chittoor district in Andhra Pradesh were transferred to Madras State in exchange of territories from the Chingelput and Salem District.

Chittoor was exchanged with whom? Because currently Chittoor is in Andhra and "Salem and Chengalpattu" are with TN. I notice that the same statement is made in the referred TN Assembly site as well. We need to confirm if this was not a mistake. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 12:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we merge this thread with the one above? Thanks! -- Paddu 15:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that I didn't notice the earlier note. Anyway, the issue seems resolved. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I have added another reference. Entire Chittoor district was not transferred. Only two taluks from it. And the same with Madras State. Only some territories were transferred to Andhra State. The whole transfer would be better answered when we get this article, Andhra Pradesh and Madras Alteration of Boundaries Act, 1959 created. - Ganeshk (talk) 04:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I created the article. Please check it out. - Ganeshk (talk) 05:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Great. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image layout

Paddu and Ganesh, does the layout need a fix for lower resolutions? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel we should. Either fix for low resolutions or add more text so that clr can be avoided. - Ganeshk (talk) 06:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards the second option. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I solved the image overlap issue by making the pics smaller and shortening the names of the CMs. Does it look okay now? - Ganeshk (talk) 15:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Looks fine on my comp. Paddu? If it still has problems, we should try to use "float:right". -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 10:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

"float:right" didn't solve the overlap problem. -- Paddu 16:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought there was no overlap problem with the monobook skin at all. I use firefox at 1024x768 with a sidebar opened so the page width is 819. With this there is overlap between the Madras Presidency maps and the table in the classic skin. This is what I tried to correct by putting the maps side by side. The edits after [1] made no difference though, so they can be reverted if required. It's also OK with me if you feel we need not support my peculiar configuration (BTW I'll be getting a new monitor so even I may not notice this problem in future ;^)). -- Paddu 16:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Adding more text might cause it cease to be a list. :) -- Paddu 16:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I added more text trying to not go off the topic. Still, the image layout problem was not solved. So, I tried this. Does this work fine? Feel free to revert. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 10:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. - Ganeshk (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha, nice trick in there, can even add more images in the future! -- Paddu 20:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wordstatesmen.org

I came across this link. You need to scroll or search for Tamil Nadu. I found the following:

It does not list Madras Presidency.(Ignore...good to be comprehensive)
~~It shows the date of creation of Madras State (26 January 1950).~~(Mentioned now.)
~~It shows the date of the rename of Madras State to Tamil Nadu (14 January 1969).~~ (Mentioned now.)
~~It says V.R. Nedunchezhiyan followed Annadurai.~~ (Mentioned now.)
~~It says Karunanidhi's current term is his 4th term~~ (Ignore per comment below.)
~~It shows President's rule dates.~~(Mentioned now.)

Should these be incorporated into the article? Please check and comment. Please add more points you might find from the website that is missing on the article. - Ganeshk (talk) 00:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

- We can use the President's rule dates.
- ~~Nedunchezhiyan's terms must be mentioned.~~ (Mentioned now.) Though in acting capacity, it's almost as relevant as Janaki's term. I was not aware of this interesting fact.
- The site mentions this as Karunanidhi's fourth term because it has merged two successive terms from 1969-1976 into one. Let's ignore that.
- The dates need to be cross-checked. The official TN SEcretariat reference is, by definition, more authoritative.

Where there's a contradiction, let's look for other sources to corroborate one or the other. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I've incorporated Nedunchezhiyan's terms into the table. We need, at least, a stub on the the eternal bride who never got to marry. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 07:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Per your wish, Created an article for him V.R. Nedunchezhiyan. Please check. - Ganeshk (talk) 18:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. These bits an pieces would help in an eventual article on Political history of Tamil Nadu, and the current one on History of Tamil Nadu. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 07:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

All the items have been reviewed. - Ganeshk (talk) 06:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Great. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

What happened to the view that "the official TN Secretariat reference is, by definition, more authoritative"? Now the article uses Worldstatesmen.org dates exclusively. -- Paddu 15:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MGR's term

It's mentioned in the records section that MGR's term is the longest. That might be incorrect since there was a president's rule during his first term (Based on Worldstatemen reference above) What do we do? - Ganeshk (talk) 06:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of a reference to back it up, we need to remove that or at least restate that mentioning the intervening President's rule. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

For now, I've added a mention of the intervening President's rule term. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 08:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Works for now. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 08:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Official records

Please cross-check with the official records. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 13:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] colors

the colors for DMK are mixed up with congress' blue. in the chronological list for instance DMK candidates are given blue while the legend says red for dmk. can someone who coded the colors correct it? Idleguy 09:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Fixed it. - Ganeshk (talk) 13:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

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