Talk:List of African Americans

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Contents 1 Arbitrary 2 Untitled 3 Famous by marriage 4 What's in a Name? 5 List of ....... 6 Hmmm... 7 Proposal for list inclusion 8 VfD debate link 9 AfD results - No consensus 10 Ethnicity lists discussion 11 Black Skin 12 After Review 13 New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles 14 Do "Lil' Flip" and "Foxy Brown" really belong under "F"?

[edit] Arbitrary

This list, while interesting, is a little arbitrary. I would recommend maybe going through the entries of everyone listed here, and putting them in the African American category for Wiki classification, so that by clicking on the category page, you get all of these people, and the many many more that are doubtless missing (for no clear reason).

And for what it's worth, this list is also very heavy on current entertainers and light on historical figures from outside of the entertainment industry. I'd love to see someone with a sound understanding of black history point us toward some illuminating figures we've maybe not heard of. Amber388 16:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Untitled

How about no more cop killers until some of the other African American contributions are filled in? Ortolan88

Why is it that I am reluctant to change the description of Mumia Abu Jamal from "political activist" to "political activist, convicted killer"? If the second is not NPOV, neither is the first. It would be better to leave him unidentified like Assata Shakur. Neither one of them has the right to look anyone else on this list in the eye, in my opinion. Ortolan88

• I know nada about Shakur, but as for Jamal's listing: how about 'prisoner and prison activist'? Both are unquestionably correct, while not passing judgement on whether he should or should not be a prisoner. -- April

Wow, what a relief, thanks. Just added neutral descriptions, as suggested for Abu Jamal, 'exile and political activist' for Shakur. Anyone who actually reads either article can draw their own conclusions. My problem is not that these people are revolutionaries, but that they don't want to pay the price for being revolutionaries. Ortolan88

I am not sure that Abu Jamal considered himself a "revolutionary" in the sense implied (as necessarily involving illegal activities). In any event (as I recall -- and I stopped following the story after a while), he was not arrested for "being a revolutionary" but for killing a cop. He claimed he did not kill the cop (or did he claim that he did so in self-defense? I forget) but that he was being persecuted for his political activities. As I understood it, those political activities were legal. Every American has a right to question political authority, and one may argue that journalists have a responsibility. Going to prison should not be "the price" one should pay for being a political dissident or critic. For killing someone, sure, but not for one's politics. Perhaps Abu Jamal was guilty -- that might make him a coward, or a brute. But to characterize him as a political hypocrite is unfair. Slrubenstein

I wouldn't want to have to count on him for anything, but what you say is fair, but for him to be on this list ... still gets me. Ortolan88

• Heh. Glad you find it helpful! So much about both seems to depend on who one chooses to believe - fortunately, here, we need not make such decisions, only lay out the viewpoints. :) -- April

--

I think we need to start organizing this page. The more we do this page justice, the more absurd the project will become (because the list will be so long, that is; imagine if we started listing famous people of all ethnicities, or even all famous people -- "famous" is just too general an adjective). That said, the fact that it is still so short shows just how few famous African-Americans many of us know, making the need for the page quite clear. So, if we keep this page, why not break it up into categories? I'll come back in a while if no one else takes this upon them and start it myself. But first perhaps we should agree on categories? Some proposals:

• By date

• By reason of fame

• By Profession

Categorizing people in terms of there fame makes the most sense, but it is likely to lead to trouble -- so many great African American artists, for example, were also activists: where would we put them? For that reason, perhaps profession makes some sense, except that also raises problems: Does Mumia belong under "journalists," "activists," "political prisoners"? Any thoughts on this? -- Tom Hinkle

If alphabetical order isn't enough, and it suits me okay, then by date would be my choice, changes over time would be shown, but subjective judgements would be diminished. For my money, Mumia belongs right in jail where he is. I'd rather not have to decide what his profession is. If this were organized by date, we'd have slaves like Wheatley followed by freed slaves followed by writers followed by atheletes and musicians and political activists. Tells a story without making a case.

I see no reason why there shouldn't be lists of famous Finnish Americans, etc. Ortolan88

Keep it simple: alphabetical order

Well, check out the List of Jewish Americans... it would probably make sense to follow their construction by profession. It would mean revamping this whole list up kind of though (for example, the description wouldn't be as necessary). I think if a person has multiple professions, they can go under multiple categories, and a description could be added to say what else they are and can be found under. Shadowolf 09:16, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I think organising the list by type of proffesion is good (and it could be sub-categorized by date or reason of fame). Categories shouldn't be specific, like "baseball player," but more general. E.g. sports, entertainment, politics, etc.

[edit] Famous by marriage

Does marrying a U.S. Senator (or two) make you famous or is there more to this person just added? - Texture 18:12, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

I vote no. Just because you are married to a famous person, does not mean you should be famous, your own accomplishments should judge whether you are famous.

[edit] What's in a Name?

I deleted the addition of Teresa Heinz Kerry, which makes a simple mistake in American-English usage. In America, people use "African-American" to refer to the descendents of slaves, because slaves were taken from different tribes and nations before most modern African states were established. When we talk about people who have migrated to the United States, we do not use continents, we use states (thus, we don't have "Suth American-Americans," or "European-Americans," we have "Ecuadorian-Americans" and "Italian-Americans." Theresa Heinz-Kerry is a Mozambuiqan-American, not an African American. Slrubenstein

Is this true? I've never heard anyone make a case that black people who are Americans not descended from slaves are not African Americans. Mark Richards 18:20, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's largely true -- remember, language usage is not legislated, there is no written law. But "African American" is generally used to refer to a community of people in this country that has been here for a long long time. I've no doubt that many or most if not all African-Americans have free ancestors (Black and White). As for how important the hisotry of slaver is to their identity, you will have to ask them, but I've read a lot of speeches by civil leaders and poetry and novels and I'd say it is pretty big. I've also met people who moved to this country from African countries in the past twenty years and they have told me that they do not closely identify with African Americans (who were born here, who are not immigrants), and identified themselves a "Nigerian American," "Liberian American," and so on. Why do we call other people "Polish-American," "Russion-American," "German-American" and not just "European Americans?" I've never heard that! Has Heinz Kerry ever called herself an African American or identified herself as a member of the African American community? I'm not being sarcastic, I do not know -- does anyone? Slrubenstein

Perhaps a little history will shed some light on this issue. At one time the term in use was "Colored", then it was "Negro", then "Black", then "African American". The latter two terms are generally accepted by Black people today. An American citizen of African heritage may be called African American or Black. That would include Mozambican-Americans.

Just as the term Black is/was not restricted to people directly descended from slaves, so the term African American.--Jose Ramos 09:56, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Strictly speaking Teresa Heinz Kerry is an African American, in the sense that she is of African descent, although not of Negroid descent (she was born in Mozambique). But, it would be equally as accurate to describe her as a Mozabiquan-American. My rule of thumb is, if you are born in Africa, you are an African, no matter what your skin color. After all, Hugo Weaving (The Matrix) was born in Nigeria, and so I have added him to my "People of Nigerian descent" list. I propose that we create a separate category for each nation in Africa, so that we can create an entry in the Category listbox to the right of the article (so that we can add Nigerian American to the list, just as we have "Estonian-American" or "French-American"). -- Jalabi99 14:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Just so I am not misunderstood, my point was not that "African-Americans" have to be Black, or directly descended from slaves. My point was that "African-American" does not just describe an individual status, it designates a member of a group, and refers to a community. I don't think the senator's wife belongs to that community; I don't think she has ever claimed to belong to that community, nor do I think that the community has ever claimed her. Slrubenstein

There is some controversy over the exact usage of the term African American. Consider Barack Obama, who is currently not included in this list but is described as African American in his article. Obama considers himself African American, but many in the "African American community" do not, raising the same objections Slrubenstein raised. Should we go for personal identification or the community definition in such cases? I personally am not fond of terms like "African-American", "Asian-American", or "European-American" (even "Caucasian-American", which sounds like its talking about Georgian-, Armenian-, and Azerbaijani-Americans) exactly because it is so unclear what they mean. If you stretch the definitions (as lots of people seem to do on these Wikipedia lists), even I could be considered African American (I'm thoroughly Korean, but I have lived in Kenya and the U.S. successively).

I'm aware that historically African American developed as a term to refer to the group of people descended wholly or partly from Africans brought over as slaves to the Americas. But now that more and more "Black" people in the States are recent immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean, and that many former "African Americans" are identifying themself as "multiracial", I think the "African American community" is entering a period of transition when it will need to redefine itself. Taking all that into consideration, seeing that there is no consensus even within the community, the best policy as of now might be to be as broad as possible in applying the term "African American", even if it means including Nigerian Americans, White Namibian Americans, and Jamaican Americans. --Iceager 02:34, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

An important distinction needs to be made: that of ethnicity and nationality. Everyone who was born and raised in the U.S.A. is a U.S.A. citizen, and therefore is American in nationality. (Actually, he or she would be "USAN," the term "American" can refer to any country within North or South America) Ethnicities and cultures are a much different matter. Normally, ethnicity is defined by being descended from a certain group of people, such as certain dark skinned or "black" people from Africa. Culture is very complex, and mainly depends on the individual and the environment in which the individual was raised. So "African-American" can only refer to a unique culture that consists of Africans (by ethnicity or descent) who are U.S.A. citizens (nacionality). Recent immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean does not force "African-Americans" to be "multiracial." They are simply another culture that consists of Africans (by ethnicity or descent) who are U.S.A. citizens (nacionality). To distinguish between these two groups, you could simply say "First African-Americans" and "Recent African-Americans."

Above I assumed "African-American" to be a cultural term because it is neither of ethnicity or nacionality. But perhaps it should be both: "Name of your ethnicity-Name of your nationality" So culturally you could use the term "Black." (Physically, you would use the term "Black skinned" or "dark skinned") If so, than certain individuals like Marshall Mathers (a caucasian American also known as Slim Shady or Eminem) could also be considered "Black," because of his or her culture.

[edit] List of .......

When I saw this heading I had to click on it immediately. It gives the impression that you are attempting to list all African Americans. I would suggest changing the title to List of Notable African Americans. Just an idea. I'm new to this, so I'm not going to make any edits myself. Atticus 04:12, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

This move was a bad idea, in addition to the fact that "notable" was misspelled. The clear convention and precendent is "List of X", not "List of notable X", on the basis that everything in Wikipedia is supposed to be notable. I see no reason to break that convention for this article in particular, and have moved the article back to the original name. RadicalSubversiv E 21:48, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hmmm...

If there is a list of African Americans, shouldn't their be List of caucasians? Oven Fresh 19:15, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• That's right. Making a list of African Americans is I think discrimination. You know it's like: "Hey look, we African Americans have great people too." So, make caucasian list folks.

Darwinek 21:50, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Any bets on how many seconds it would exist before being listed on VfD/ I know *I* would do it. RickK 23:00, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

So, let's do it. List of Caucasian Americans is waiting for you. I think, that it's great idea. Darwinek 22:05, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• I meant I would list it on VfD. RickK 23:19, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • Why? Oven Fresh
    • Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. RickK 06:31, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

List of white people was deleted also... List of catholic composers was too, but list of gay composers was kept. Then there was no consensus about keeping this page, yet overwhelming support for List of Native Americans I guess lists of white folk is bad on Wikipedia... --Bob 17:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Making a list of African Americans does seem like discrimination, but think about it for a second: if there was a list of caucasians (and I am half caucasian myself) you would have to make a list of famous people from other ethnicities, and than you would have to make a list of for all the ethnicities of the world! Wikipedia isn't completely fair, it tries to be absent of POV, but it accepts whatever articles come first. Just because a list of African Americans comes first, doesn't mean there won't be a list of caucasians, or any other ethnicity. You just have to wait for someone to make it. Until then, we have what we have.

[edit] Proposal for list inclusion

I have made the following proposal regarding the criteria for inclusion for these lists. If this is something that you have comments or ideas about, please provide feedback. Thanks. Wikibofh 9 July 2005 19:13 (UTC)

[edit] VfD debate link

This article has been kept following this VFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] AfD results - No consensus

This article was nominated for deletion on November 18, 2005. The result of the discussion was no consensus. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

I have a question and if it's been dealt with above apologies. The question is how do you deal with Egyptians, Americans from North Africa, and white South Africans who came here? For example is Charlize Theron African-American? I'm not being flippant, I'm actually curious. For the most part I agree with the term African-American as many of the world's people could be described as "black" so it's confusing.(My adopted cousins are "black", but they are Sri Lankans)--T. Anthony 06:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

You're only an African American if you're black. Everybody else has to disregard their heritage because they're not black, even if they are native to that continent, like the Kabyle, Arabs, Egyptians etc. However, those who have never stepped foot on that continent, like their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, great great-grandparents and great great great-grandparents call themselves African-American just because they're black)--Bob 11:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Question: Can someone be considered a "Black person" if they don't have Black skin? What is the criteria for classifying someone as "Black"? People call me black all the time, but I don't have black skin. My skin is light brown. So, is it correct to classify a race a people as Black, although most of them don't have Black skin? But, I'm Black, and I'm proud of it! I'm also African-American and proud of it! The terms Black and African-American are nothing but classifications. And, African-American is a term that never existing until Black American's adopted it to classify, primarily, American people of West-African descent who can only trace their heritage back to the Middle Passage. --QzDaddy 12:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it correct to classify races at all? Should it matter? In France, state classification by race is illegal. The way it is now, you have to be black to be African-American. Shows no respect for the millions who aren't black. From Wikipedia: To be considered African American in the United States of America, not even half of one's ancestry need be black African. The nation's answer to the question "Who is black?" long has been that a "black" is any person with any known African ancestry. --Bob 20:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

This is bull. You want a definition of "African-American"? Check the article on the subject. You KNOW who is and who is not one. Don't try to disguise your disagreement with the generally accepted meaning of the term as ignorance. This is not the place to insert your personal opinions on the matter or debate the issue.

And, hell, yes. One can be an African-American and not have "black" skin. We've been so mongrelized, we come in all shades. You just can't be "white." That Charlize Theron, Teresa Heinz Kerry mess has been discussed ad nauseam. Let's not do it here. deeceevoice 00:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I think you misunderstand though as I'm new to the discussion. I think African-American is a fine term and I don't have any problem with having this list. I was just legitimately curious about how you deal with cases of Americans from Africa who are Arab or Malagasy or Afrikaans. They are from Africa and it seems wrong to dismiss that by declaring they can't be because they aren't black seems wrong. However looking at the Heinz-Kerry discussion I see the general solution is to just count them as of a certain country then add "American." Like Egyptian American or Afrikaans-American or what have you. Correct?(On Malagasy they're mostly black, but they speak Indonesian related languages so are somewhat mixed between Asian and African)--T. Anthony 04:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The simple -- and, IMO, obvious -- solution would be, as I suggested, to read the article on the subject. After doing so, it seems to me it would should be quite clear that white Africans do not qualify as African-Americans. Peace. deeceevoice 23:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

yes, because white Africans aren't African! even if they have more to do with the continent than most African Americans. Even though many tribes in North Africa are African, they can't use the moniker African as they're not black. --Bob 18:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

You miss the point. The name "African American" was not chosen for its logic. Rather, it was coined by and for those people who are sometimes called "black people", and were once referred to as "Negros" and "colored people". The term does not hold the same negative connotations as words like "black" and "Negro". Theron and her like are not included, as unjust as this might strike you. —BrianSmithson 18:56, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity lists discussion

Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Skin

This article needs to source everyone listed for being an African-American. Having black skin alone is not reason for inclusion into this list. 75.3.4.54 00:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] After Review

Could everyone agree that African-American does not include native africans, read the definition on this subject please, they would be referred to as senegalese-americans or nigerian americans

Well, if a reliable source calls a person an African-American, then they are African-American for Wikipedia purposes, whether we like it or not Mad Jack 17:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Do "Lil' Flip" and "Foxy Brown" really belong under "F"?

I was just adding Medal of Honor honoree John R. Fox to F, and got very confused by Lil' Flip and Foxy Brown:

• If "Lil' Flip" belongs in F, then "Foxy Brown" belongs in B
• If "Foxy Brown" belongs in F, then "Lil' Flip" belongs in L

Personally, I think that they're both in the wrong place, but I can't find the proper section of the style guide for alphabetizing stage names and aliases. (This should not be confused with my personal aversion to hip hop fancruft or the questionable notability of "performers" under the age of 30.) —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 05:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Foxy Brown should be under "B". Lil' Flip should be under "F". Powers ^T 13:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)