Talk:Linguistic issues concerning the euro

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Contents 1 Plural of euros and cents: original policy discussion 2 Plural of euros and cents: discussion revisited 3 Plural of euros and cents: discussion resumed 4 Plural of euros and cents: original discussion about Irish 5 Plural of euros and cents: discussion about Italian 6 Plural of euros and cents: discussion about Greek 7 Wording of English section 8 Wording of Latvian section 9 Once again, how the s-less plural arose (Warning! Facts follow here!) 10 Existing currencies with s-less plurals 11 Euro spelled in Cyrillic:discussion about Bulgarian 12 The Yoyo thing 13 Bulgairan slang usage 14 writing and speech 15 phonetic representation 16 'Euros' in Portuguese 17 Linguistic issues: German

[edit] Plural of euros and cents: original policy discussion

The article should reflect the fact that BOTH plural forms (i.e, with and without -s) are used in practice in the only English-speaking country in the Eurozone, and that a sustainable case can be made on either side of the debate. Wikpedia articles are supposed to be written using a neutral point of view.

The euro is divided into 100 cent

I really don't like this. We should follow the English Style Guide of the European Commission Translation Service and use cents (and similarly euros).

See A fistful of euro or a fistful of euros? and section 20.7 of the linked English Style Guide

Incidentally, see Spelling of the words “euro” and “cent” in the official Community languages - to be used when drawing up Community Legislative acts for the plurals in other languages. Roybadami 16:13 Sep 14, 2002 (UTC)

Ok, I've decided to be bold and make the change., here and in Euro coins. If your inclined to disagree, please read the above references first. Roybadami 22:57 Sep 14, 2002 (UTC)

I've also edited the para on alternative terms; it seemed a little terse after the removal of the (presumed spurious?) Italian plural. I might have been inclined to add a note on Finnish plurals (see above reference), put I haven't a clue what a singular partitive form is. In any case, I've probably made this para overlong as it is. Roybadami

[edit] Plural of euros and cents: discussion revisited

Roybadami's edit of "cent" to "cents" was changed by an anonymous poster to "cent(s)". Obviously I find this offensive (and am famous for doing so), so I have changed it back. I have also (as I promised some time ago) revised the section on the plural rather extensively. I can supply links to the original legislation which caused this fiasco if anyone wants it in the article. I realize that not everything that I wrote might be considered perfectly NPOV, but I assure you all (having done a lot of research on this topic that the story as given is true. I welcome edits to make the text more neutral but I would strongly urge co-editors of this article not to allow a wholesale replacement which implies that the s-less plurals are some sort of natural development and that all is right with it.

Interestingly, Dell computers was broadcasting its adverts in Ireland on Sky with the "legislative plurals" but they have recently ceased to do this and are using now the natural plurals.

Sometimes I think the only hope for Ireland is that the UK will join the EMU since the British public would not stand the abuse of the English language as much of the Irish public seems to have. ("Ten euro and fifty cent" indeed. It's appalling. It's got to be "ten euros and fifty cents".) Evertype 21:02, 2004-07-15 (UTC)

HAH! As if here in Ireland we give two hoots about abusing the English language! It is our solemn duty to ensure Hiberno-English becomes entirely unintelligable to those across the water :o) (You never know, it might be true of Kerry!) Seriously though, the reason there's not as much fuss here about using "10 euro" rather than "10 euros" is that the Irish language uses the singular form of the noun when counting. Its a habit that has continued in a few situations, such as money. To hear people talk of "10 pound" was not uncommon. I would say that it would be unusual for one to hear someone speak of "10 cent" rather than "10 cents". Although the example you give is one which would be common - using "cent" in conjunction with "euro". It's all a bit complicated. Speaking in the general sense one speaks of "euro", but usually "cents". Note that all I am discussing is the used forms in Ireland - irrespective of "official" forms. Zoney 21:19, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

With respect, Zoney, the "reason" that "10 euro" doesn't jar some Irish ears has nothing to do with Irish plural formation. It has to do with people hearing it every day on TV. I remember very clearly, though many seem to forget: everyone was taken aback by the "novel" plural and the shame of it is that so many people thought they were being good little Europeans by complying, oblivious to the fact that euros is the official plural in French, Spanish, and Portuguese. You are right: it is a bit complicated. It needn't have been, but until we get another government which can instruct RTÉ to stop this silliness with the "official" form, we will continue to have a mix of "legislative" and "natural" plurals in Ireland. Evertype 21:32, 2004-07-15 (UTC)

Zoney, I've just looked at your edits, and I'm sorry, but they are factually incorrect. S-less plurals of the specific words "euro" and "cent" have no historical justification, as I have said, and the parallel of Irish singulars in counting does not have anything to do with why the s-less plurals are reinforced. (Most people don't know enough Irish to apply such a rule, and it is certainly not productive. The reason the s-less plurals are current is as I have described it. In addition, my statement that people have become accustomed to what they hear on TV is also correct: I have been observing this situation closely from the beginning. It is simply not the case that people are saying "ten euro and fifty cent" in some sort of Hiberno-English protest. If McCreavy had never introduced these fake plurals into Ireland, no one would have ever, ever changed the plurals by deleting the s. Finally, the word cent pronounced [sent] is used in Irish, and ceint is ignored. I'm sorry, but I'll have to revert everything but your useful "perhaps". Please don't take offence. Evertype 21:45, 2004 Jul 15 (UTC)

I can tell you now, that is not the situation around my area. "the EU has no business changing the natural plurals of English" HAH, I can't imagine anyone around here saying such a thing. People here feel no loyalty to the English language! And yes, I entirely approve of using the EU-derived form to set Ireland apart as a more European country than the UK! I am pretty sure the legislative form will win over, one hears those much more often as time goes on. We'll also hopefully see our country further influenced by the rest of Europe - it's already meant decent coffee, and food that is actually interesting! And LIDL, is there anything they don't sell? And at prices which aren't the usual insane Irish ones! Don't forget, there are multiple Irelands. There's Dublin, which is practically Britain, it's probably where the 35% of Irish who didn't say the EU is a good thing live. There's the West, there's the People's Republic of Cork, there's Kerry, there's the Border counties, there's the Midlands, the Southeast, the Midwest. Finally, it is true to say that the form "10 pound" was used previously in Ireland, and yes, this was a feature of Hiberno-English influenced by the Irish language. Zoney 21:49, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. "10 pound" was (and is) current in British English, and it is incorrect to say that the reason 10 pound was said here is because of Irish (trí phunt, deich bpunt, remember). Further, the "official" form and the form broadcast was "10 pounds". The linguistic and sociolinguistic facts are as I have presented them. When the unnatural s-less plural came in, people everywhere noticed it, because everyone speaks English here, and everyone normally forms the plural in -s. The s-less plurals of euro and cent are nothing more than McCreavy and his cronies failing to understand the point of the original EU legislation, and then lacking the wit to revert to speaking normal English. Even when it was pointed out to them. The rest of the English-speaking world will never say "10 euro and 50 cent" and it is absurd for anyone in Ireland to do so. It is nothing to be proud of. It is a cock-up. Evertype 22:19, 2004 Jul 15 (UTC)

I contest that my edits are factually incorrect (obviously). Why anyone would use cent rather than ceint in Irish is beyond me! ("euro" is different - there isn't an "official" invented word, because the government couldn't care less about looking after and furthering the Irish language) Also, people do currently use all forms "euro", "euros", "cent" and "cents", although the "s" forms are indeed successfully being stamped out by the great efforts of the government and broadcasters. Zoney 21:58, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, Zoney, I can tell you, absurd as it seems, in Irish "they" decided to use euro and cent as in English. That's official. that's what Rannóg an Aistriúcháin does. It's wrong, of course. Just as the s-less plurals in English are wrong. I assure you the facts are as I have presented them.

The changes you have just made, introducing Euroskeptics, are inappropriate and unsubstantiated. People who object to the s-less plurals object because they are unnatural, and the talk when those plurals were introduced was about the EU having no business making such changes, and it's not true to say that it was Euroskepticism that was the cause of this.. Kevin Myers wrote an article about it. PLEASE read the articles on my web site which are linked at the bottom of the euro article BEFORE making further unsubstantiated changes.

(A variety has sprung up is the correct grammar. The plural of the urban legends does not govern the verb.) Evertype 22:19, 2004 Jul 15 (UTC)

I added the Euroskeptics bit, as the whole "resent the EU changing English" sounds ludicrously Euroskeptic - I take exception to the implication that "most" (as the text stated before my edit) Irish people subscribe to that view. Zoney 11:33, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have been watching this discussion since the beginning. I observed the discussion carefully. I participated in public debate on the topic. I heard people dismiss both the Commission and the Minister for Finance as having the right to dictate anything about English grammar. But this is exactly what happened. McCreavy let RTÉ know that we were supposed to use the s-less plurals. "Says who? The Commission?" (In fact the Commission did not say it; the Irish government misinterpreted and misapplied a Regulation about the name of the currency.) But it's not "ludicrously Euroskeptic"; after all, the euro itself was being introduced by the EU, as was the word euro (which they invented) and the "grammar" that came along with it. Evertype 15:38, 2004 Jul 16 (UTC)

Why is the Irish theory (and I admit it is that) necessarily incorrect? Yes there is mutations of the noun in counting, but the singular noun form is still used. The source of the theory is numerous Irish classes at all levels from Primary to Uni level. It's no more an invalid theory than the "we've all been subjected to brainwashing" one! As regards your "absurd" comment - I still don't follow. Why does Ireland need to use "correct" English? It's not our native tongue. Bá cheart duinn Gaeilge a úsaid! Zoney 11:33, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Your theory that Irish-language plural formation is the reason people in Ireland say "five euro and fifty cent" is simply not true to the facts. You may not remember the introduction of the word euro and the introduction of its "novel" plural, but I certainly do. I knew people working at the Euro Changeover Board. Your theory would be believable only if the use of s-less plurals in Hiberno-English was a productive linguistic feature. It is not. The s-less plurals were introduced by bureaucrats; it was an error; the professional translators at the Commission itself deplore the error and earnestly hope that the natural plurals in -s will become the norm in Ireland one day. My "theory" is not that the Irish people have been "brainwashed". My observation is that constant television broadcasting has inured people to the unnatural grammar of "five euro and fifty cent". I also observe that many people still resist this and retain natural grammar. For my part, I can't think of any reason not to say "five euros and fifty cents".

"Why does Ireland need to use "correct" English?" you ask. Don't be ridiculous. "It's not our native tongue." That's untrue. Most people in Ireland are native speakers of English. "Ba [sic] cheart dúinn [sic] Gaeilge a úsáid [sic]" – Well, I believe the same. We should use good natural grammar in both English and in Irish when we speak of our currency: One euro, two euros. One cent, two cents. An t-eoró. Luach an eoró. Na heorónna. Cruth na n-eorónna. Eoró amháin. Trí eoró. Seacht n-eoró. Ceint amháin. Trí cheint. Seacht gceint. But official policy in Ireland is to say: One euro, two euro. One cent, two cent. An euro. Luach an euro. Na euro. Cruth na euro. Euro amháin. Trí euro. Seacht euro. Cent amháin. Trí cent. Seacht cent. I don't think that either abuse, of English, or of Irish, is acceptable. Evertype 15:38, 2004 Jul 16 (UTC)

I agree that the current situation breaks set rules for both languages. But I say that the article ignores the reality that this has become accepted. It is written in a tone as to try and emphasise that "natural plurals" should be used. It suggests the Irish are stupid brainwashed manipulated individuals, rather than the easy-going "who cares?" people we are. I mean, if there's one thing that most Irish people pay less attention to than the English language, it's the Irish language. Zoney 00:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Aris, most of your edits are pretty good, but I think that you misunderstood what I meant by "natural". Moose and sheep notwithstanding, the stripping of the -s from cents is certainly unprecedented, and considering pesos there is no "naturalness" to the plural euro. I'm going to sleep on it, but I think I'll try to revisit this after a few days. I think that a mention of the urban legends is warranted. Ireland is in an unhappy situation because of the lack of language-planning that went into this, and Wikipedia should tell all the facts. Evertype 20:35, 2004 Jul 16 (UTC)

I feel that this is an article about the Euro. It's perhaps okay to have a section about how the word is used throughout the Union, but what doesn't seem to me very okay is to devote a dozen paragraphs on how Ireland (and Ireland alone) uses the plural form of the word. It's not the place for it I feel.

I do urge you, if you like, to create a new article about the "Linguistic Issue Concerning the Plural Form of Euro in Ireland" or something like that, and then we can link to it. I mean it. But do you really feel that such a debate mentioning *all* the facts should be placed in the main article concerning the currency? Before my edits, Ireland had more paragraphs devoted in it in this section that all the other countries combined. That's... improper, I feel. There's a difference between an english article on the Euro, and a article about Euro's English usage. The section still feels to me a bit inbalanced towards focusing only the English word, Ireland in especial, but I supposed that can't be helped if Ireland's the only country that has caused such controversy.

Also, concerning the "urban legends" -- it feels very dismissive and POV to call them that. Call them *theories* if you must call them anything. I'll take a glance to see myself if I can find a non-intrusive and neutral way of mentioning them, without enlarging the text on Ireland too much.

Thanks for the comment -- and I'm glad you liked most of my edits.

Aris Katsaris 01:03, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The recent anonymous edit which added the suggestion that Irish people become used to the "s"-less plural because of what they see on the banknotes and coins is one of the urban legends that grew up because people needed to explain why non-standard plurals were "right". In other countries where regular plurals are used the people are not tricked into using non-standard grammar because of what is written on the notes. I think the new clause should be deleted as it is not true to the facts. Evertype 19:31, 2004 Aug 5 (UTC)

It does sound like an urban legend. However, it's no more inaccurate than the "Many people in Ireland strongly prefer the natural plurals" - the positioning of this first, and the tone of the bit describing proponants of the s-less plural (essentially suggesting brainwashing)... are absolute rubbish. Mostly people have no objection to the s-less plural - it is becoming ubiqitous. "Euro" was not previously an English word, the currency is a new concept, and the unusual plural is part and parcel of it for most people. Basically - "who gives a crap?" is the attitude of the average Irish person.

Personally - I couldn't be arsed getting involved in an edit war - but please note that I consider the entire section and article biased, and ignoring the defacto reality (most Irish people use s-less plural - and it is taking prominence).

Zoney 00:14, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, why don't you let Google decide? That means to let the majority decide like it is common in democray. So please just type in "1000 Euros" and again "1000 Euro". You will see it is much more common in any language nowadays to say "Euro".

[edit] Plural of euros and cents: discussion resumed

Just to give my point of view on the issue. I am a 19-year-old student living in Limerick, and the whole Euro<->Euros thing appears to be a lot different to younder members of the population. Most people that I know who are my age and younger say "euro" as the plural, and most also say "cent" (though probably slightly less than "euro"). Very few - especially those younger than me - appear to use the -s plurals. This is probably due to our greater influence from TV and radio. I've got too used to not using the -s plurals - the -s plurals just felt wrong to me after actually starting using the currency, and I often get highly annoyed by (mostly UK-originated) ads and websites and whatnot that use the -s plurals, and often complained too as it just doesn't seem formally accepted here. Though it appears less of a problem now, especially in the case of advertisements on TV and radio - B&Q stopped saying "euros" on their ads; and last year Sky kinda stopped, then started again... then stopped; Dell originally said "euro", but then twice went to "euros" when they had British voice-overs; and pretty much every indiginous advertisement (except for a few often poorly-produced ads) still continues to use "euro" and "cent" on TV, radio and wherever else.

I think it's a bit different with the older generation of people here though - most seem to be less welcoming to this irregularity in English. I know some people who change between "euro" and "euros" on a regular basis - even in the same sentences - and there's probably a lot more people older than 25 than under who tend to use the -s plurals more often. And then there's the elderly, who'll probably never get used to it - my grandad's still saying "pounds" most the time!

After reading this and other similar articles, I'm not sure which way is "correct", and am quite annoyed at the whole situation. But I really don't see people who don't use the -s plurals, especially younger people, changing to the -s plurals any time soon unless the media industry here do too and some sort of standard is set. --Zilog Jones 23:31, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Zilog, I sympathize with you. Many young people in Ireland have learned the unnatural plurals from radio and television; if you hear something often enough it starts to sound natural. But it's the media which is in error in spreading this distortion of natural English grammar. And make no mistake: The rest of the English-speaking world says euros and cents and that's never going to change. Please see the new section I added today at the end of this page for more information. Evertype 15:28, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)

• At this page the general public can download several European Central Bank brochures regarding the Euro. These brochures are unanimous that the plural of "cent" is "cent", but give no indication of the plural of "euro". 83.71.59.129 20:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plural of euros and cents: original discussion about Irish

I view [the suggestion that eura was to be used in Irish] as pretty spurious. I've never heard of it before, always using euro as the plural in Irish. In any case, the singular form of words are used when counting in Irish, hence the reason why so many Irish used 'five pound', etc. in English. Similarly talking about five euro isn't so odd either.

Can someone explain what hat 'eura' was pulled out of! Go raibh maith agat!

I removed the rather nasty piece about European Commission having no right to dictate language etc. (yes, the Eurocrats in Brussels are out to make all our lives a misery!)

Zoney 12:32, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It's not eura; the first name proposed (by the Coiste Téarmaíochta) was a short truncation of Eoraip, namely eora. The term eoró seems to be more current among those who don't use the English term as a foreign borrowing. This isn't a trivial matter; euro in Irish has no gender and doesn't behave according to the normal grammar. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the genitive (more frequent than the nominative) is "an euro" which means that in Irish it would be a masculine noun an t-eoró, luach an eoró, na heorónna, luach na n-eorónna (and not an eoró, luach na heoró, na heorónna, luach na n-eorónna).

Note that the spelling euro isn't possible under the rules of normal Irish orthography: eu doesn't occur (compare séú 'sixth'). Indeed, though the form euro could occur in older Irish orthography, it would be spelt éaró today (compare reul > réal 'sixpence').

I see that my site has been linked at the end of this article. Thanks. At some stage soon I shall try to tackle the "pluralisation" section, which isn't really very accurate as it stands. Evertype 19:50, 2004 May 31 (UTC)

Go raibh maith agat, I wasn't aware of these issues. Unfortunately, the above useful explanation is probably to much detail to go into in the main Euro article. Perhaps a new sub-article euro and language problems can be started, as I am sure there as issues with use of terms for euro in many of the other languages (not least English of course, Euro vs. Euros). I might bite the bullet here if I've time.

B.T.W. You don't happen to know what's the government's position on Euro and Irish? (Falls off chair laughing hysterically)

An bhfuil aon rud scríofa agat sa chiclipéid Gaeilge - Vicipéid, tá cabhair á theastáil againn.

Zoney 20:32, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Plural of euros and cents: discussion about Italian

...terms exists in the various languages of the member states: for example in Italian the plural is euri.

This is false, italian doesn't modify foreign words when doing plurals and other "flessions", as stated by Accademia della Crusca (people that decide what is "correct" in italian, for short). http://www.istruzione.it/euro/web_istruzione/crusca.shtml as a referecne. Notice that in 1999 the accadia talked about "euri" but official, latest, statement is "euro" with no doubt.

But euro is not a foreign word... it's the name of the Italian currency. User:Marco_Neves

I have'nt changed the Euro page myself as I would not know what other example to put there, but I hope someone does it very soon...

--Lapo

Regardless of what the Academy has to say, I am curious as to whether most Italians say degli euri or degli euro.

1 - we directly call them "dollars", it's easier and more concrete

2 - we do hope we are soon coming back home, to stay long abroad it's too expensive for us...

After spending almost a year studying in Milan, I can without a doubt tell you that nobody uses euri. Euro as the plural is what is taught at the language courses and as well as used on the streets. --Mjaavatt

I added the thing on "euri" after reading about it in a British newspaper, which was reporting on the initial takeup of the Euro -- and how as well as being unifying, local colour remained nonetheless. (propaganda aimed at dragging recalcitrant Brits kicking and screaming into the 21st century... ;-) I doubt it's official, but it would be interesting to note nonetheless if it's a common usage -- Tarquin

I assume that the European Comission Translation Service must have an Italian Style Guide (though I couldn't immediately find it on their web site). Someone who reads Italian (and can find it!) might wish to see what they say about the plural of Euro. (See my comments and links below; the Translation Service mandates the English use of euros and cents despite the fact that EU regulations require an invariant plural in legislative documents.) If normal Italian usage differs from that specified for legislation, I imagine that the Style Guide might say something about it. Roybadami 01:08 Sep 15, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Plural of euros and cents: discussion about Greek

I very much doubt the comment about the plural "euro" form being similar to the Greek word for urine. Urine in Greek is 'OU-ra', whereas Euro is 'Ev-RO' (stressed syllable in capitals). Even if it were made into a normal Greek plural 'Ev-RA' it would still sound nothing like the word for urine. Indeed, the English words 'euro' and 'urine' are more similar than their Greek counterparts. I live in Greece and I never heard anyone comment on the connection. Could this be an urban legend?

Thanks for the information. I'll remove it (it is already flagged as apocryphal, but why give a silly apocryphal explanation space at all?) But also the alternative explanation, that "each language has a different method of forming plurals. To avoid the need to settle on one, they kept it euro for plural" is non-sensical given that as stated soon after, the plurals do differ between languages so they would not need to settle on one pluralisation anyway. Best to remove this speculation and stick to the facts. While I'm at it I'll turn "Official practice" into a useful external link.

[edit] Wording of English section

This has the effect of reinforcing the s-less plurals, though many advertisers (particularly those in the United Kingdom) prefer the 'natural' plurals in -s, euros and cents

While many people in Ireland strongly prefer the natural plurals – and at the time the s-less plurals were introduced, some complained that the EU had no business changing English grammar – other people have become accustomed to what they hear on daily television and radio, and to the s-less plurals which they see written on the notes and coins. While usage in Ireland is disputed, common usage in the UK prefers euros and cents as the plural forms. Broadcasts of currency exchange rates outside of the European Union tend to use the -s plural; with NPR in the United States and the CBC in Canada being two examples.

Some of my changes to the wording of this section were reverted. The wording above is not NPOV:

• The wording above says that some strongly prefer the 'natural' plurals while simply stating that the 'legistlative' plurals are used merely because people are 'accustomed' to them. Some also 'strongly' prefer the legislative plurals (but only a minority have strong feelings either way).
• The statement that "some complained that the EU had no business changing English grammar" implicitly suggests that this contention was correct. I changed the wording to "some complained that the EU was attempting to change English grammar" which conveys the same meaning while making clear that what is purported is claim rather than fact.
• The term "-s plurals" is preferable to "natural plurals" because it is only opponents of the -s plurals that claim they are unnatural.

Iota 17:17, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What you wrote isn't NPOV either.

• I simply don't believe it's the case that anyone on Ireland strongly prefers the legislative plurals. And you may not have been paying attention when this disaster of language-planning occurred, but I was. People were taken aback by the s-less plurals. People talked about it in pubs. It's only because the media picked it up off McCreavy that people did get accustomed to it.
• You can't say that "some complained that the EU was attempting to change English grammar". The legislative plural DOES change English grammar, and the whole thing was a cock-up on the part of McCreavy's department. In Spanish and French and Portuguese the "normal" plural euros is used, because they were paying attention to their own languages. McCreavy misunderstook the Council Directive (which was about the name of the currency and the text on the banknotes, not about regular grammar), and RTÉ took it up, and everyone in Ireland had to "learn" the "new" unnatural plural.
• It is not incorrect to refer to "natural plurals". 95% of English words form their plurals in -s. The plural of cent has always been cents, until a European Council committee with neither linguistic knowlege nor authority was taken to have decreed it. Indeed, the plural of the name of the kangaroo euro has also always been euros. The plural of peso is pesos. The plural of biro is biros. There is nothing "natural" about the s-less plurals, and, indeed, the Translation Section of the Commission specifically states that in all but legislative texts, in all texts directed at the general public, the natural plurals should be used. That means plurals in -s, and it means the Wikipedia. Evertype 22:35, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)

The current status of the text is quite redundant and POV. In view of the various other currencies and other measure words with s-less plurals, it is by no means clear that the "natural" plural of euro would be euros. My attempt to straighten this out was bluntly reverted by user Evertype. What does he propose to do to improve the text? −Woodstone 10:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wording of Latvian section

is POV because albeit correct regarding the official stance of Academy of Science does not say anything about de facto usage of euro by media and financial institutions in Latvia. There are some who use eira for above mentioned reasons, however, majority chooses to say and write eiro including Latvijas Banka, the central financial institution. Lonehermit 01:17, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Once again, how the s-less plural arose (Warning! Facts follow here!)

Directive (EC) No. 1103/97 of 1997-06-17 from the European Council states: Whereas … the European Council furthermore considered that the name of the single currency must be the same in all the official languages of the European Union, taking into account the existence of different alphabets.… This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States. The intent of this Directive is, obviously, not to change the natural grammatical formation of plurals in any European language. The intent of the Directive is twofold: (1) to prevent an EMU country from calling the currency something else (like the ducat or the pound or the Mark or the dollar, and (2) to ensure that the banknotes were not cluttered up with a string of plurals and other forms (EURO EUROA EORÓNNA EUROT EUROS EIROI EURO'S EURI EVRI etc.). The only reasons the s-less plurals are found in the English of Ireland is that (1) the Commission misunderstood its own Directive and started using the invariant plurals in legislation (the silly rule that legislation continues to use these false plurals is to avoid problems in translation; a poor excuse, but there you are) and (2) the Irish Minister for Finance misunderstood the intent of the Directive and started speaking ungrammatically; the Irish Euro Changeover Board and the broadcast media picked it up, like parrots, and have broadcast it because they mistakenly believe that good little Europeans are supposed to form their plurals according to a European Council Directive. This is not the case; our co-pluralizers in Spain, France, and Portugal wisely rejected the abandonment of the s-less plural and they all happily say euros, euros, euros just like we would, had the Minister for Finance not cocked up. Make no mistake: the s-less plurals are supposed to be used only in legislation now; the European Commission itself recommends the natural plurals in all other contexts. The Irish media are doing the wrong thing. Want more proof? Klaus Regling, Director General for Economic and Financial Affairs of the European Commission said to me in a letter dated 2002-04-12: EU legislation is drafted and published by the Council in all linguistic versions. You rightly state in your letter that in EU legislation, the plurals of both "euro" and "cent" are written without an "s" in English, but that the Secretariat General of the Commission has issued a guideline recommending its translators to use the plural with "s" for both terms in documents other than legal texts. More? Pat Cox, President of the European Parliament, said to me in a letter dated 2002-05-30: I thank you for your letter of 22 March 2002 concerning the plural form of the Euro. I agree with you that the natural plural of euro and cent in English would be euros and cents and that the legislative plurals without the "s" sound unusual to English speakers. Your analysis of the current position is well-put and makes clear that no one is (or, indeed, could be) obliged to use a particular form in other contexts. Your campaign therefore provides a timely reminder that the natural plural forms are in no sense illegal and may be freely used for all other purposes. Evertype 14:53, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)

My understanding is that while it may be correct to say that the EU didn't want to clutter the banknotes and that is the reason why there is no s on the banknotes. It is not the reason behind the official spelling of the words euro and cent in the plural and singular, as used in official documents such as EU legislation. The document that specifies the english plural spelling without the s also specifices it with an s in other languages such as French, Spanish and Portugese. There was no attempt at all to make the spelling of the plurals the same in these languages. The [1] is available in pdf on http://europa.eu.int/comm/economy_finance/euro/faqs/faqs_13_en.htm If anything, it may have been more of an attempt at standarization in pronunciation since the final s in french is not pronounced. Parmaestro 18:13, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The documents you refer to were made subsequent to the screw-up that "fixed" the English plurals as s-less for legislation. The whole thing has been a badly botched set of mistakes that could have been avoided if any bit of language planning (or simple wit) had been applied. France, Spain, Portugal, Finland, and Greece all managed to insist that their languages be respected ("we don't care what's on the banknotes, but in documentation we will use natural grammar"); the Irish Minister for Finance dropped the ball and then refused to clean up the mess. Evertype 14:43, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)

And now, over 3 years later, broadcasters, the media in general, and even teachers in Ireland still believe "euro" and "cent" are the correct plurals, and still no one's doing anything about the issue. My biggest concern is the teachers though - I am in the belief that primary school teachers generally believe this, but I don't know what sort of guidelines they are given about the problem, if any. I don't really know a lot younger kids, but all my younger cousins seem to strictly use the non-s plurals so I can only assume that's what they are taught. I was in 5th year by 2002 so we weren't really taught much about the basics of English, and since many of my school books were printed before the changeover they're probably not a good example and varied between the "s" plurals and the non-s plurals probably more out of lack of use of the words than anything else. --Zilog Jones 18:33, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This hideous mess is probably the reason I try and avoid using the words alltogether. I still say "fiver" and "tenner", and "grand" for thousands, and "quid" - or to be more annoying - "squids" --Zilog Jones 18:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Existing currencies with s-less plurals

The reason I listed the yen, rand, baht and now also the won as existing currencies with s-less plurals was not to suggest that these currencies were the reason for the s-less plural on the euro. Nor was I citing these currencies to prove that an s-less plural on the euro is acceptable. The reason I added the statement was merely to demonstrate that, contrary to popular perception, s-less plurals on currencies were in fact not a new concept in English grammar. I believe this fact is extremely relevant in the context of s-less plurals being used on a new currency, particularly when as already mentioned in the article, some people believed that the EU was attempting to change English grammar. I agree it is a mess that the EU advocates an s-less plural in official EU documents and an s-plural in everyday use. However, it is important to allow balanced arguments to be presented on Wikipedia and not to delete or rewrite valid factual comments that do not happen to support one's own opinions or preferences. The article should predominantly contain balanced facts rather than pushing individual contributors' opinions. On a topic which clearly has conflicting opinions, it should be up to readers to draw their own conclusions from the facts presented. If you feel strongly about something, then please use the discussion page rather than sabotaging other people's well intended contributions.

I think the remark about the peso and escudo is interesting, i.e. the ending of a currency in the singular influencing the plural formation, and the expectation of consistency in this respect. However, plural formation on currency names in English is not always dependent on their endings in the singular, since "pound" and "colón" have an s-plural but "rand" and "won" have an s-less plural. Given this precedence of inconsistency, I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions from the peso and escudo example. I think all we can state is that s-less plurals were not a new concept in English grammar and cite the best known existing examples. I don't think it adds much value to speculate in the article on whether these examples may or may not have influenced the EU's decision to use an s-less plural on the euro, unless that speculation is supported by hard facts. Nfh 19:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Nicholas, the reason I moved your references to yen, baht, and rand (and did not delete them) was that it is relevant to the discussion. But the place in the article where you'd put it was at the discussion of the genesis of the practice, when the mention of these anomolous plurals had never been suggested. When people were complaining about the "novel" grammar, they were, really, not thinking about "sheep" or "yen" or "baht" (anomolous plurals, whether or not pre-existing an s-less plural of euro). Reference to those came later, and reference to them in the article should come later. I don't believe I "sabotaged" your well-intended contribution. I moved the relevant material to a different place in the article, and tried to expand on that. I've reverted and added some more text; shall we edit the new paragraph and move on? Evertype 23:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Michael, you first deleted my contribution. Then when I reinserted it in a more appropriate place, you rewrote it and moved it, changing it from a simple statement of fact to your own statement of opinion. It therefore no longer conveyed the meaning that I intended, which was to counter-balance the statement that "at least some complained that the EU ought not attempt to change English grammar", as those people did not consider the precedent that other currencies (as you point out) already had anomolous plurals. That is why the statement belongs where I inserted it. For this and the reasons I gave above, I've reinserted my statement and removed the four examples from your paragraph to avoid repetition. I hope this is an acceptable compromise. By the way, I prefer your expression "anomolous plurals" to s-less plurals. Is there any technical reason why we shouldn't use this term throughout the article? Nfh 07:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Nicholas, I remain opposed to your edit as it stands. People originally expected euros and complained that euro was a change in grammar; this does not suggest that they thought that anomalous plurals do not occur (sheep, children, feet are there beside yen and baht (how DO you know that people don't say "10 bahts"?). So your introduction of this material is simply in the wrong place. People felt that the EU was changing grammar; sheep and yen were only brought up later. Therefore I believe this topic is better addressed elsewhere in the article. To answer your other question, "anomalous plurals" is too general for this article, and we should keep s-less. Evertype 13:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Michael, I still don't agree. The claim that the EU was attempting to change English grammar was a false perception that the EU was going against the existing rules of the language rather than changing the plural formation of just one word. I therefore think it is extremely relevant to mention that several existing currencies had s-less plurals and the appropriate position for this comment is immediately after the comment about the EU changing English grammar. I am inserting my contribution again and I would be grateful if you could leave this comment alone, as your replacement comment in a different place does not convey the same meaning. In return, I will leave alone your comment about the peso and escudo, which I do not agree with for the reasons I gave above. When contributing to Wikipedia, sometimes you have to compromise and allow others to have their say, particularly if they are writing fact rather than opinion. Much of what you have written is opinion rather than hard fact, and I am not deleting or amending that, despite Wikipedia not being intended as a forum to push one's own opinions. Please compromise and let us both respect each other's contributions. On the subject of the baht, whilst I'm sure you agree the official plural is "baht", you only have to do a quick search on Google for "100 baht" and "100 bahts" or any other number, and you will find roughly ten times as many s-less plural results than s-plural results. This would suggest that the official plural is written (and probably also spoken) in common usage. The result of the same test for the euro is of course very different! Nfh 19:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Euro spelled in Cyrillic:discussion about Bulgarian

In Bulgarian the euro will have to be spelled евро (ЕВРО in all caps, pronounced EVRO) and not еуро (ЕУРО in all caps) as indicated in the article. The bulgarian У is different from the greek Υ or the lattin Y. --Ikonact 22:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

WHO CARES???? Bulgarian language and economy is about as important as Maltese! And those people are so BAD keen on joining the Euro they would even do it if Bulgaria would be rased out of the bank notes' European map!! To proper Europeans it is part of the Near East anyway! I hope they dont compare themselves with the Greek cause the Greek letters on the bank notes pay tribute to the rich Greek origin of the word "Euro".

I AM REALLY SHOCKED BULGARIANS MAKING SUCH CLAIMS!!!

Besides who knows if Bulgaria is really able to join EMU III in the near future?

Feb 11, 2006

Hey, DO NOT BE SHOCKED :-) I'M NOT CLAIMING. I'm just presenting the facts. As a chapter about the name in bulgarian exists, it has to be correct. If this is not important... just delete it. But if it is there it should be correct. --Ikonact 17:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Yoyo thing

Right, could someone else in Ireland please speak up if they have ever heard an actual person say "yoyos" without it being in some way connected to those first Jamster ads that used to say it, cause it keeps getting added that a "few" say it, but like I said: I've never heard someone say it without being a reference of some sort to that Jamster ad. - ^R_H^e_o^d_t 09:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

No, I have never heard anyone actually say yoyo, which is why I wrote the text "some people play at saying yoyo". But no one does. Evertype 00:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgairan slang usage

I thought about adding about the jocular usage евраки (to make it sound Greek), but I don't know if it's prevalent enough. If others have encountered it, do tell.

[edit] writing and speech

Although the title suggests the article is about linguistic issues, it focuses on orthography. Although words' written forms are of linguistic interest, to talk linguistically is to deal also with the spoken form. There is only a tenuous link between written and spoken forms. Mention might be made that, in certain languages, the initial sound in euro is not any of those commonly associated with the letter E. Cases in point are English and German; some would suggest the first sound in English euro is a consonant. In English, the adding of an S to euro to pluralise it doesn't actually mean that speakers use the sound normally associated with that letter but, rather, the sound normally associated with Z. In German, S is sometimes used to pluralise words of non-German origin such as Bueros and Kinos. It is also used to pluralise abbreviations such as LKWs.

Also, the pluralising of the word in French by adding an S would not normally affect pronunciation any more than if pluralisation in that language were done with a T. It may also be relevant to point out that the Italian form is tri-syllabic. One therefore has a word which may be spelled similarly in several languages yet which is pronounced differently among them. This can be contrasted with Coca-Cola which, while it may not obey orthographic rules in many non-English languages, tends to be pronounced the same everywhere (though with differences in accent). We thus have, in euro, a word which is supposed simultaneously to be international (and therefore translingual) yet which most language-communities insist on pronouncing (and sometimes inflecting) as though it were a homegrown word. This may be because, while the word is neologistic (at least in terms of referring to a currency), it is recognisable as part of a natural word in most if not all the languages in which it is used.

[edit] phonetic representation

In some case, letters are placed in square brackets. This convention implies a narrow phonetic transcription but I doubt that those instances are. In the entry on Finnish we are told that the pronunciation is [euro] and I wonder if this is accurate. It is unlikely to be a narrow transcription and it implies that the word is tri-syllabic, as in Italian. (above text was writen by 217.206.112.162 on June 13)

Actually the Finns do pronounce it tri-syllabic. I'm swedish and don't know Finnish, but I don't think [euro] is far from their pronounciation. The text "The pronunciation is [euro]." was written by User:Vuo on 28 February, who writes on his user page "I'm a Finnish guy, studying chemical technology." /BIL 14:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Reading the discussion page of User:Vuo, one can see that he knows about language science, so he probably knew what he wrote. /BIL 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Euros' in Portuguese

The article currently states:

"Five euros are still called conto de reis or just conto"

I believe this is an untrue generalization. It does happen with older citizens, particularly the ones with less schooling, who

(1) Have difficulty doing the mental conversions necessary to establish how much something really costs, and

(2) Have some difficulty changing the habits of a lifetime. (Old dogs and new tricks, and all that.)

However, these people don't "call" 5€ "1 conto de reis" (they very often don't know that the two are analogous) - they merely speak of 1 conto de reis and leave it down to you to do the math and convert it to euros. 83.132.98.149 13:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. No one calls a 5-euro note a one conto note; it's a 5-euro note that just happens to be worth one conto after being converted to the old currency. Well caught! --maf 13:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistic issues: German

Hi! Some thoughts on the German linguistic issues concerning the euro:
The word Sechser actually is not used in Germany. Okay, perhaps in some very ... very rural parts of some rural parts.
The word Eumeln is likely to come from one of the various names for the new currency that have been in discussion in the 90s: EUMEL = European Monetary Election. The proposal was rejected due to German and Austrian concerns about the extremly silly sounding of that word in German.
Henning Blatt 15:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)