Talk:Limnic eruption

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Contents 1 First week of the article, comments about changes 2 List of ideas of what to focus on 2.1 Expanding Lake Kivu 2.2 A possible solution: Degassing lakes 2.3 Facts to verify 2.4 Improving intro & causes of limnic eruptions 2.5 Adding reference section, improving "See also" section 2.6 Translating to french 2.7 Identification of a new phenomena 3 reverted changes 4 Call for Clarification on State of Lake Nyos Victims 5 "Recently determined" 6 New evidence for historical occurences section 7 A possible solution: Degassing lakes 8 Merger proposal - merge Limnological catastrophe with Limnic eruption

[edit] First week of the article, comments about changes

Hello revmachine21 and thanks for the latest changes, this science stuff flies way over my head so I'm no good at explaining it to others. I think the article is deeper now. Would be funny to make this "featured article" quality considering the rarity of the phenomenon.

I received a reply from the head of the french scientist team at Lake Nyos. If you read the copyright notice on some of the photos, you'll notice they gave permission to use them. I will ask other members of their team if they are interested in contributing but first I would like to translate this text to french, this way they'll be more likely to contribute to either version. I am billingual (french-english) so I can update both articles once they are done.

Concerning the latest changes (scientific explanations), I think they should be placed carefully as to not overwhelm the readers with technical data in paragraphs that should be more introductive. I feel the intro paragraph has gotten a bit heavy, and some of its more technical terms could be included in a different one. Let me know what you think.Beltz

Very interesting that you've gotten the French scientists involved. If at all possible, they would be better suited to writing the scientific content as they are more qualified. I'm a banker in Tokyo! I'm a native English speaker so I will work on the English edits. Point taken about the intro. I will try to simplify the language. Since this is a new science, I think we should add a section about the discovery of the phenomena, it was actually rather interesting how they discovered this new thing. Revmachine21 00:38, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Simplification complete. Let me know your thoughts. In order to get this article towards a featured status, we will need to provide references. Do you know how to do this? I've done a little research and will start the referencing process. Revmachine21 12:44, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Due to the 2005 Quebec student strike I'm having my final college exams this week instead of about 4 weeks ago, so I'm going to just comment and post ideas here rather than make changes to the article that would require research, for a while. I still have doubts about the introduction and the "causes of limnic eruptions" parts as I feel the "causes" paragraph is simpler and more introductory than the intro itself. Anyway, I'm not sure myself if I really dislike it, but I will propose some changes as soon as I begin working on the article again; soon, I hope! Beltz

[edit] List of ideas of what to focus on

I will list things I think might be good to do. Let me know what you think about them, and propose some others as well! Beltz 16:11, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Expanding Lake Kivu

It's a very large lake and there probably is enough data on it on the Internet to double or triple that section's size with useful facts. Random data about the lake would be detrimental to the article, but perhaps putting emphasis on the touristic sites and large population around it would be good. We can also probably give a more detailed explanation of how risky the situation was, due to earthquakes, volcanic activity, etc.

I did a lot of research to find future references for the article I was planning. I've put all the information I could find in the External references section. I think the problem is that this is a very infrequent phenomena, only affecting 2 to 3 known lakes, plus only in Africa. There is information but not as much as you would expect if the same thing were happening in the US or Europe. Revmachine21 07:08, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Would it be good to write things that could interest this encyclopedia's reading audience? For example, if there are thousands of westerners right around the lake, it could add a few lines worth mentionning into the text. Or would this be detrimental to the article to speak about a minority "of interest" in a place where 2 million lives are in danger? (however small the danger is...) Let me know your thoughts. Beltz

[edit] A possible solution: Degassing lakes

There is a ton of info on the french team's website, as well as other sites, on the techniques they use to degas the lake as well as their results. This is the section that lacks the most needed data in my opinion.

This would fit nicely under the 'Limnic eruption prevention' section. See sample outline below. Revmachine21 07:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Facts to verify

Facts to verify: "Sample sediments from the lake were taken by Professor Robert Hecky from the University of Michigan which showed that an event caused living creatures in the lake to go extinct approximately every thousand years and caused vegetation nearby to be swept back into the lake."

Bob Hecky is a professor at the University of Waterloo. Perhaps, this work was done by George Kling from the University of Michigan.

This was taken from another wikipedia article. I've heard of his research but I don't know if he concluded that the extinctions happened every thousand years, or if it was an exageration from a wikipedian. It would be good to figure the accurate frequency of the disaster.

I saw/heard confirmation on this fact (but I think the frequency was 5,000 years) on a BBC TV special, haven't been able to find an internet reference to back up this fact. The BBC special said that geologic record showed periodic lake extinctions and the presence of land vegegation which they implied was caused by lake tsunami pulling plantlife into the lake.Revmachine21 00:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whoops, I just double checked my entries in the Lake Kivu page that I made right after I saw the BBC show, and the period was 1,000 years.

Okay, good then. I based my figure on your article as well.

[edit] Improving intro & causes of limnic eruptions

I feel those two have parts that should be swapped with each other... I'll work on this now and see what happens.

Why don't we follow the tsunami article outline structure? Here's a sample:
Introduction
1 Causes
2 Characteristics
3 Warnings and prevention
4 Past limnic eruptions (this might a good place to include the information from the section I added below)
4.1 Lake Monoun
4.2 Lake Nyos
5 Lakes at risk for limnic eruptions
5.1 Lake Monoun
5.2 Lake Nyos
5.3 Lake Kivu
5.4 Some Equadorian lake I found... can't remember the name but was included in one of the links I provided...
6 Limnic eruption prevention
7 See also
8 References
9 External links
Revmachine21 07:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I like that outline. I have some reservations about the "warnings and prevention" part. I'm not sure it would work well here because unlike a tsunami, earthquake or tornado, there are no warning signs that would not be explained in "Causes" where we explain how they are caused. I suggest we get rid of #3, and rename #6 to something with the words "degassing", as it catches interest and will pertain more to this section's content than just using "Prevention". But sign me up, the layout you proposed sounds very good. Beltz 13:49, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Adding reference section, improving "See also" section

Dunno how to do the references, im throwing this here because it probably will need to be done.

You can embed references into the body rather than in the 'External links' section like this [1]. Wiki will automatically number them for you. Edit this section to see how this was accomplished. Revmachine21 06:51, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(ok thanks-Beltz)

[edit] Translating to french

I'm writing this here because I plan to do it, perhaps next weekend. Beltz 16:11, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Identification of a new phenomena

According to the BBC special I saw, scientists first thought the deaths at both Manoun and Nyos were caused by volcanic outgassing. The appearance of the dead bodies led them to think of sulfur gas. However after evaluating the lakes' temperatures and not finding any evidence of volcanic eruption, they realized that the volcanic hypothesis was not likely. Only after discounting volcanic theories, did they start to begin the identification process for limnic eruptions.

The article should also explain how scientists identified a new type of event separate from a volcanic event. Revmachine21 06:51, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This would be a great logical first section in the article, after the introduction. This would fit very well before "Causes" (based on your proposed outline from tsunamis).Beltz

[edit] reverted changes

hello, I would like to explain the few reverts I did today.

1- Removed link from "suffocation" article, in the first paragraph. I did this one because this link sent to an article on asphixia, which would be more apropriately placed later in the article, where we actually mention "death by asphixia".

2- Removed a link near the end to the "asphixia" article. It was the third link sending to the asphixia article. So as of now, there is still a single link to the asphixia article, in the "Occurences" paragraph. I think it's the most apropriate place to link (rather than linking from suffocates earlier) since the word asphixia is used in its usual context.

3- Removed a link to the "water" article. I dont think a link pertains to our article, as it isnt about reactions to water, or anything chemistry related. It is ecology related, but I dont think linking to "water" is necessary. If you disagree, please revert it back if you want, I dont mind it much, I just felt it was a bit out of place.

4- I think the "soda can" link should be removed. It links to "aluminium can", an article about how the cans are manufactured. The "beverage can" article might be more apropriate but I dont know if it's about carbonated drinks. If there was a "carbonated beverage" article, perhaps a link would work better.

bleh, that's all I had time to do today. I'll finish the french translation later this week. Beltz

[edit] Call for Clarification on State of Lake Nyos Victims

The Lake Nyos article claims the victims exhibited not merely skin discoloration, but actual burns. Is this true? If so, could it be because of the temperature of the CO2.. Or does it rather lend credence to the acid theory? Anyway it should be explained, or the claim of burns removed from the Lake Nyos article. Zargulon 14:20, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Here is a reference [2] Revmachine21 12:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Recently determined"

Could someone make this more specific? Recent as of when? When was it determined that volcanic eruptions were separate events? QmunkE 03:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

'Scientists recently determined, from investigations into the mass casualties in the 1980s at Lake Monoun and Lake Nyos, that limnic eruptions and volcanic eruptions, although indirectly related, are actually separate types of disaster events.'

Recently means 1980's, it says so in the sentence. Revmachine21 12:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not what the sentence says as it is written - that sentence only states that the mass casualties occurred in the 1980s, it doesn't specifically pinpoint the discoveries with regard to limnic eruptions being separate events. Also, is the 1980s recent? If nobody can clean this up I will rewrite the sentence to conform with a more encyclopedic tone/style. QmunkE 17:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New evidence for historical occurences section

The Biblical plagues of Egypt is the first recorded occurence of limnic eruption (blood water, frogs, boils, CO2 death). Evidence was presented in a recent documentary on the History channel called "Exodus Decoded" by Simcha Jacobovici. It should be noted in the historical section in some way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Decoded. rjp2006 Aug 21, 2006

I'm not sure that the linked article has strong enough evidence to support a claim of limnic eruption in Exodus. Furthermore, volcanic activity has indirect causal relationship, volcanic activity is not the direct cause of a limnic eruption. Limnically active lakes are noted for lack of direct lakebed volcanic activity. A different trigger like landslide, excessive rainfall is noted as more likely triggers.Revmachine21 11:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A possible solution: Degassing lakes

Cleaned up and added some information on the degassing experiments and proposals. If anyone knows what happened to the project reported in New Scientist in Jan 2003, please add to this. 165.222.186.195 11:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't have access to New Scientist (maybe you do) but I found the following. Refernece [3] Revmachine21 12:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not use the syphon to generate electricity and sell that to defray the cost?

"Why not use the syphon to generate electricity and sell that to defray the cost?" Research would be needed but I remeber something of an energy contract from the Rwandan government for the extraction of methane (something like 55 billion cubic meters I think). If the projects were decreasing the kinetic energy of the water through syphoning the amount of water and CO2 being pulled from the bottom would decrease. However slight this would be, as noted on the project site at the University of Michigan's site the CO2 is not currently being pulled out fast enough as is. You do have a point though in that myabe if the costs were deferred then more projects could be put in place.

[edit] Merger proposal - merge Limnological catastrophe with Limnic eruption

We have two articles, Limnological catastrophe with Limnic eruption, on the same topic. This resulted from the translation of the Russian article to English with a less than comprehensive reserch on the existing literature. Recommend merging. Comments? Williamborg (Bill) 19:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we merge. They basically cover the same material, and any good points stated in Limnological catastrophe can help improve the current status of Limnic eruption. --Nishkid64 01:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Limnic eruption is the better article, unforutnately the Limnic eruption article reads like jibberish. I realize that some points in the later article are better science, but it is impossible to read. Revmachine21 13:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)