Talk:Leo Strauss

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Contents 1 Discussion page Archive 1 2 German-Jewish Extraction means what? 3 Sullivan and Arthur Melzer drop-in comments revamped 4 Orthodox Jew according to Allan Bloom 5 "A Giving of Accounts" Strauss' comments on Orthodox or Conservative 6 Cleanup needed 7 Misplaced comment in Archive 1 repeated 7.1 Nietzsche's Nihilism 8 Wrong Jacob Klein is linked to in article 9 Straussian Schools of Thought 10 Bibibliography 11 Strauss had a daughter 12 Typo? 13 Linked from HuffingtonPost

[edit] Discussion page Archive 1

Talk:Leo Strauss/Archive 1 Created on 7 June 2006

[edit] German-Jewish Extraction means what?

I changed the section at the top because I don't think the way it was written made it clear that Strauss was born in Germany as a Jewish person. They way it was previously stated, a reader might reasonably assume Strauss was born in the U.S. but had a German-Jewish parents or ethnic heritage of the same. I also tried to fix some personalized paraphrasing in the Philosophy section, while incorporating the existing ideas and prose. I think the article was pretty choppy and inconsistent, and thus cried out for an attempt at streamlining it into something a reader could process logically.--Mikerussell 04:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sullivan and Arthur Melzer drop-in comments revamped

The article cited Andrew Sullivan very vaguely about Strauss right in the first paragraph, to have Sullivan mentioned so prominently in a kind of hearsay comment, reads very amateurish. Another editor added info about the article below, and it had no title, and really did not deserve to be in the body of the text.

• Melzer, Arthur. "Esotericism and the Critique of Historicism." American Political Science Review. 100, (2006) 279-295. --Mikerussell 03:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orthodox Jew according to Allan Bloom

The following source was used to reinsert the fact that Leo Strauss was raised an Orthodox Jew.

• Bloom, Allan. "Leo Strauss". Political Theory 2(4), (1974) 372-92. --Mikerussell 03:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not a fact, but a claim (and one that can be falsified), and the Blook obituary is not a source, but an at best secondary account (and probably a tertiary one). Allan Bloom was no expert on Strauss' youth and upbringing. I'll grant, however, that it is a common mistake, strangely enough especially among Straussians, to say that Strauss was reared an orthodox Jew. (I think just someone wrote that, and then all are copying from each other - I've discussed that with Cropsey as well.) What is true is that, especially during his Gymnasium and study years, he oscillated between the different forms of faith and possibilities to live as a Jew (see especially the report by Albrecht B. Strauss, son of Cantor Strauss with whom Leo lodged as a student).

But about the family itself, there are of course two main sources, both only in German:

• Kaufmann, Clemens (2002). "'Vieles Gewaltige gibt es, doch nichts ist gewaltiger als der Mensch' - Werkgeschichtliche Anmerkungen zu einer Abiturarbeit von Leo Strauss", in Zukunft braucht Erfahrung. Eine Festschrift. 475 Jahre Gymnasium Philippinum, Erdmute Johanna Pickerodt-Uthleb, ed., Marburg: Gymnasium Philippinum, pp. 103-126.
• Lüders, Joachim and Ariane Wehner (1989). Mittelhessen - eine Heimat für Juden? Das Schicksal der Familie Strauss aus Kirchhain. Marburg: Gymnasium Philippinum.

The latter is, I think, more serious and reliable than the former. Anyway, what is obvious in both is that the Strauss family, especially Hugo and his first and second wife (those who raised Leo), were by almost no standards orthodox, but what you would call conservative Jews, and not very strict ones at that. (Cf. Kaufmann, esp. pp. 105-107, who in judgment puts them between orthodoxy and conservatism, but the evidence he gives clearly proves that no orthodoxy was involved) This is, by the way, very obvious as well if you trace Leo's schooling - it is generally secular, even if there was a choice; he did - after the Volksschule - not attend the Jewish School in Kirchhain, but an academically better one, the private Rektoratsschule, which was led by Protestant clergy. (Cf. Lüders and Wehner, p. 14)

Given that the question of Leo Strauss' "Jewishness" is not entirely without significance to understand his work and its development (such as the struggle with Neokantianism), it seems worth getting this accurate here. Clossius 08:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It certainly is a valid and reliable source to quote Allan Bloom's own published obituary in the highly respected, peer-reviewed, scholarly publication Political Theory. If Political Theory editors thought Bloom was not qualified to offer the essay as composed, it would not have been printed as is. By inference, one can safely say, contrary to your own personal opinion, Bloom was an ‘expert’, in the academic sense of the term, on Leo Strauss and qualified to make the claim "he was raised as an Orthodox Jew". Thus wikipedia article is not harmed by including the information. To suggest otherwise raises a few alarm bells in my mind to your claims themselves; especially when you are rather hypocritically claiming private conversations with Cropsey. Why would Cropsey know more than Bloom, or more importantly, how can you claim you know that Cropsey knew more? Isn't Strauss famous for the teaching that Socrates said different things to different people? Just rationally speaking, aren't you using the same hearsay standard to try to discredit hearsay as a valid source? Why is the reader supposed to take your private conversations as more valid then the ones Bloom undoubtedly had with Strauss?

On the simple level of quality of sources, yours are not better than Bloom's. Moreover, some of your own comments are really geared to a discussion/interpretation of what Orthodox vs. Conservative Judism in Germany then means, something not entirely fitting the biography section of the article. Suffice to say, Bloom believed "he was raised as an Orthodox Jew", and I don’t think you, or anything you offer above, are any better of a source than him. Additionally, by your own admission, you state it is a "common mistake, strangely enough especially among Straussians, to say that Strauss was reared an orthodox Jew". That leads one to think such a "common mistake", as you state it, should be noted within the article somehow. Whether Strauss oscillated between "faith and possibilities to live as a Jew." isn’t really what Bloom is saying, even an Orthodox Jew could be within their own mind "oscillating" about their faith. The source you cite for this claim is not Leo Strauss’ own words, but his uncle’s. How is that any more valid than Bloom’s? I think you have a preference for one source over the other- fine; but to dismiss Bloom's credibilty leaves one wondering if your preference is bordering on a prejudice against Bloom's own informed opinion.

But my point is, of course Allan Bloom knew Strauss very well, over many years, and it would be hard to imagine that he did not talk with Strauss about his life in Germany and his education. He is a very good source, first hand in fact. To suggest only persons acquainted with the family’s history, or studied the family, and derived opinions based on Strauss’s education, for instance, are qualified sources is faulty logic. It begs the question why did Bloom write otherwise? I think that is worth noting, if not investigating. Your sources focus on the Strauss family and seem, from the title, to deal with the status of the Jew in Hessen, Germany as accounted for by "a case study" of the Strauss family. The publication you are offering, as far as I can tell, for both sources is- more or less- a High School Yearbook. No matter how prestigious that school may be, it certainly cannot be more valid than Political Theory. Thus I think your comments above are a little too simplistic and dismissive of a very credible source, and for that reason alone I think there should be some mention of the comment by Bloom, which by your own admission is shared by other "Straussians", as you put it. What is clear- at least so far in this exchange- is Strauss did not state in his own words that he was or wasn’t raised a Orthodox Jew, thus it strikes me as an open question needing a little more thought then only what you state above. Personally, in all honesty, I could careless, I just don’t know enough about Jews and Orthodoxy and how it may or may not be practiced. But I am respectful that it must be very important to others who are greater minds than I (and you state this too), and it seems to be unjust not to mention it. You are right Bloom's claim is not a fact and can be falsified. True enough, but in my honest opinion, and admitted ignorance, you really haven't done it above. Some reference strikes me as still valid. --Mikerussell 05:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Mikerussell, to paraphrase Paul Natorp, while the tone and argument of your reply should lead me simply not to respond, because the issue is clearly not getting the facts right, but "winning" even if one is factually wrong, the issue is important enough not to let the discussion stand like this and to - for other readers - clarify the situation, especially as the key texts are in German.

Allan Bloom knew Strauss quite well, but as is well known, Strauss did not enjoy discussing his early life with anyone, including those closest to him. In fact, he very rarely did. What my talk with Cropsey was about (and I think this is clear from what I wrote) is that even some of the "professional Straussians" (Jaffa, Pangle, Cropsey, Bloom, Mansfield et al.) did not know much about his time before he came to the US. Even Jenny Strauss Clay and Tom Strauss did not know much about this, and they actually cooperated with, and were very interested in, the Lüders/Wehner research (rather than dismissing them, Gutsherren style, as you do). The issue here is biography, not political philosophy. Therefore, Political Theory, while a good journal in its field, is not a medium that is particularly credible per se on biographical details (and by the way, obituary essays are of course not refereed, they are commissioned).

The sources I quote, however, deal explicitly with Strauss' family, especially with his parents. This is why they are the main sources on the topic, especially Lüders-Wehner. This was indeed a student essay, but one that for the first time used contacts to the children, the original sources in the Regenstein library, and Kirchhain and Marburg documents. It was written for a Federal competition and won, if I recall correctly, the President's 2nd Prize. The other essay is by a professor of political theory who wrote the main intro on Strauss in German (I don't like it, but that's not the point), and it appeared in the Festschrift for the 475th anniversary of the school, which was very carefully edited and widely reviewed in Germany (in Europe, such publications are not usually dismissed as unscholarly; many key essays by senior scholars are found there). Both publications are very far from what one can call a High School yearbook.

As far as I know, Bloom was not an expert on Oberhessen Jewishness around 1900; he also doesn't give a source in this article. This is why it is a secondary or tertiary account (the latter if he heard it from some other student of Strauss). To insist that this is more valid than the main research on the Strauss family is just stubborn but not scholarly. And to suggest that I prefer one source over the other because I "like" it more is just bad ad hominem rhetoric - of course I prefer a source that is more valid because it deals with the topic in question over an unreferenced essay by a disciple. If we were talking about Strauss and, say, Shakespeare or Spinoza or Plato, I would believe Bloom more than Wehner-Lüders. (We might also consider for a moment, and that I think is absolutely common in history and historiography, that Leo Strauss himself was not entirely honest, or clear, about his (early) biography; that happens very frequently, and this is why oral history needs to be critically received. Whatever Leo might have said about his youth to Bloom - and I think, but of course I cannot verify that, that he didn't say anything -, from a scholarly-historical perspective, this is not better evidence than facts and documents about that youth that focuses on family and context, i.e. on those who did the actual "upbringing", as it is phrased here.)

So, by Wikipedia standards, the main published research on the question in question shows that Strauss was not raised an orthodox (by German or American standards) Jew, and to say otherwise - just, as I think, in order to win an argument - is not only un-wiki and un-scholarly, but it also perpetuates faulty information that might harm further research on, and thinking about, Strauss. If that is your goal, congratulations (as I will not revise your changes again, putting as they do the cart before the horse; contrary to Oxford, I am not the home of lost causes) - and that it is is supported by your admission that you "couldn't care less"; if you were interested in the topic, indeed, you would probably welcome additional serious information, rather than to just stubbornly "defend" Bloom. If not, you might want to think again. Clossius 09:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, you are taking my concern far too personally, and I am surprised you read such a petty personal motive into my concerns, but so be it. The exchange itself, speaks for itself. In fact you raise an excellent point that was in my mind when I changed it back, namely

"We might also consider for a moment, and that I think is absolutely common in history and historiography, that Leo Strauss himself was not entirely honest, or clear, about his (early) biography; that happens very frequently, and this is why oral history needs to be critically received."

Why Bloom wrote what he wrote is worth noting because Strauss might have mislead, intentionally or otherwise, to make students believe this. It was something that crossed my mind yesterday and did not write explicitly- again- it is worth noting if not investigating. In your edit, such a point is lost under the guise of superior scholarship. Also, I disagree about the validity of the sources offered, not the content therein, since I have not read yours. To be blunt, this is English wikipedia and there is a German wikipedia, you cannot assume that readers are fluent in each language, and to say that the sources you cite are superior than Political Theory is almost mute because of the general inability for most readers to judge the quality and content of sources in a foreign language. (Even if they went to get them from the library). I don't think wikipedia is damaged by the current edit and personal pride or feelings have very little behind my concern. Finally, I think you write as if you have not taken a pseudonym and everybody can bank on your name as a valid source. Yet no one can, you might want to diminish the significance of your familiarity with others that you name freely when you purposely mask your own identity. How can the average reader really measure the merit of your statements, especially in regards to the Strauss family, by just reading your Userpage User:Clossius. As you know, Ph.D.s are a dime a dozen, and publications can be a simply a matter of course in academia, signifying not much more than perseverance in the Boy Scouts, sort of speak. Self supported claims are not valid proof; moreover, you may be very qualified, but how can a person judge? I would love to know who you are and how you know Cropsey and the family, I understand why you choose to remain anonymous too, but you cannot have it both ways in my opinion. That is why I think it is much berrer to include the Bloom contents than delete them completely based on your unsupported familiarity with German texts and family friends. --Mikerussell 17:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I also think this interchange speaks for itself, and thus I would let the matter rest here, but there is too much Strauss discussion here - soon this interchange will be archived, and readers of the wikipedia will not be able to judge for themselves anymore who has made a valid point here - only your changes will remain. Yes, this is the English wikipedia, which is why results of foreign-language scholarship should be reported here by those who can read it, and this should be verified by those who can judge, of which there are, after all, plenty (surely many thousands), including many of the Strauss experts. And in any case, my original edit was not to comment on the nature of Leo's upbringing, rather than to say it was this or that (because that is a question under discussion). One could, indeed, insert that many Straussians got this wrong (they, as a rule, do not anymore; background about Leo's youth became known in the US in the late 80's, early 90's only).

In any case, I absolutely agree that who I am or not am has nothing to do with the validity of my argument here, especially as Wikipidia is consciously, and by choice, not un- but non-scholarly, such as in that unpublished research doesn't matter. (Nor do PhD's and the like of course.) But my argument here rests entirely on publicly and freely available sources (not on my interpretation thereof), which cite and reprint original documents, and easily verifiable facts (such as Leo's schooling, an argument which you keep ignoring). And, well, scholarship is universal, but language competence is not, and I myself would refrain from arguing much about Strauss' (or even Bloom's) interpretation of Plato if I wouldn't read Greek, either. Strauss would have been the first to agree with that, by the way, and Bloom would have, as well. :-) Clossius 20:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You have cited 2 German language sources in this discussion. I stated my concerns about the validity of those sources in light that they contradict Bloom's published claim. I did not say your sources where wrong, simply that they did not negate the significance of Bloom’s claim in-and-of-themselves. Nevertheless, the article was altered to represent this uncertainty/debate about whether Strauss was raised an Orthodox Jew. If you take out all this stuff about your private conversations, and take out your opinions, that even includes speculations that Strauss probably never talked to Bloom about his upbringing, what else is on the table? I am not quite sure how this debate has deteriorated into assessments about the language competencies of me or others not possessing fluency in Ancient Greek? If you have an axe to grind about philistines commenting on Plato find a better spot to sharpen your blade. Besides these 3 sources what is on the table? If you take out the comments you make about your own private conversations, which you admit shouldn’t be considered in this article precisely because they are unsubstantiated, what else is there? The issue about schooling is your deduction based on general familiarity with the typical schooling an Orthodox child would have in Hessen around 1910-1917, but it doesn’t conclusively resolve the issue. It’s possible his family deviated to some degree, or made an exception for him. Where you are certain, others can ask for more information legitimately in light of the contradictory evidence. Anybody can easily change the article at any moment. Give me a break on the bellyaching about what an injustice it is to readers that “my” current edit will remain when this invaluable discussion is archived. In fact, I would be the first to alter the work to conform to additional evidence that shows Bloom was mistaken if you- or anybody else- offered anything beyond 2 German language sources which are not scholarly in the crucial sense of the term. I just think unless more conclusive source are cited, an accurate portrait of the issue is present. --Mikerussell 03:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I think any reader with average intelligence can tell that my example regarding Greek is, in a Streaussian context, supposed to illustrate that it is both unscholarly and not very sensible on Wikipedia to insist that a language in which the main research on a certain topic is done is ignored - the 2nd language within the Wikipedia, that is, and not some arcane one. The Education of Leo Strauss happens to have been one of the very few sup-topics on research on Strauss where the results are in German. I've reported them, as they are very clear; anyone who reads German can check the sources. That in this discussion, I am giving some of the background and context, such as the schooling, and the opinions of the leading Straussians (to which group Bloom belongs) and the family (which is b.t.w. documented in Lüders-Wehner), is legitimate as providing context and background; you are free to ignore that, but your paranoia against any familiarity with Strauss or Straussianism, or with normal academic degrees is pretty obvious. Your current edit - of course yours and not "yours" - does not represent the state of scholarship at this moment; it is therefore not "unjust" but misleading. To stubbornly insist that the sources cited are less scholarly than a commissioned obituary note by a disciple in a political theory journal (which, I would really underline one last time, is neither a genuine source nor a particularly convincing reference - it's just a side remark by someone whose main interests lay elsewhere), or even that the genuine sources are unscholarly (an absurd claim especially from someone who by his own admission doesn't speak the language of the area, doesn't know the context and hasn't read the sources in question), betrays by itself both a deeply unscholarly and un-academic mind. (In that sense, maybe to have a PhD is a dime a dozen, but to have gone through the process helps...) Again, both Strauss and Bloom surely would have agreed with that - the unwillingness to learn, the dislike for new information of any kind and the unability to look beyond the Tellerrand is the mark of the doctrinaire. Clossius 06:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and in the light of the last comments, I think I may change the original entry, which I will do (just switching the argument around); it was necessary anyway because of some spelling mistakes in the current version. Clossius 06:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your edit and insight to my quality of mind, you have given me a great Sunday morning chuckle. All I can say is the edit is fine, and I can only wonder to myself how so much animus towards me was fueled by simply arguing what evetually you seem to agree should be in the article, at least until further evidence is uncovered. Your edit is my edit, except for a rewording, more or less. So I cannot figure out what the difference is. --Mikerussell 17:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I see, you in fact couldn't let it rest there, but you had to make the entry a bit more inaccurate, just to have the last word. Let's see whether I'll have the energy to change that back. I hope I don't. What it says now, and even what I wrote before, does not reflect either my opinion or the state of scholarship, but under the circumstances, it seemed to be more prudent to compromise on the facts, as it were, rather than to have a completely wrong and misleading statement there. Clossius 17:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

All you need to do is quote another of these "many other biographical writings" and it would be accurate. I still cannot get you do address that all you want to offer is 2 writings. No matter how certain you are, evidence is evidence and citing other sources by name is how you can prove your point conclusively. Everything else is just silly posturing. As I read this you are the fella bringing up winning points and personal insults about the quality of contributor's mind. Your frustration at being challenged about your sources tend to overshadow that Strauss has not written anywhere what he was raised as- this would be the type of schloarship that I call "crucial". As far as I know, there is not yet a biography of Strauss published either, in any language. The work of biography is very detailed and complex, and can uncover many unexpected results, so excuse me from doubting the assertions of an anonymous wikipedia editor who gets very angry when others honestly disagree with the merits of the source and wish to incorporate other valid views. --Mikerussell 18:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

What we have is two valid sources, one of which heavily cites the available documents, vs. one remark in an old commissioned notice that at best is hearsay. Bloom's remarks are not evidence in any scholarly sense of the word; the documents cited and context given especially in Lüders-Wehner are. Strauss didn't write about his childhood, but even if he had, this would not necessarily outweigh documentary and factual evidence. But indeed, by now this interchange is starting to get really unpleasant, and so I'm finishing my comments here for the moment, because all is said contents-wise. I'll take it up again if someone else wants to raise the issue. Clossius 04:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "A Giving of Accounts" Strauss' comments on Orthodox or Conservative

Added a revised edit on the biography upbringing issue in light of the ambiguity of opinion in the published sources. Adding the "A Giving of Accounts" quote which is a secondary quote of the comments, but interesting and certainly worthy of inclusion, even if the article seems a little swollen in the beginning.

• "A Giving of Accounts" The College 22 no.1 p.1-5, St. John's College Review: Annapolis, 1970. and/or
• "A Giving of Accounts" Jewish Philosophy and the Crisis of Modernity. New York: State University of New York Press, 1997, p.457-465.--Mikerussell 05:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether this is more mis-information or not, here is a See also:

• Alter, Robert. Neocon or Not? Book Review of Reading Leo Strauss by Steven B. Smith. New York Times Book Review. June 25, 2006.

"Born into an Orthodox Jewish home in a small German town in 1899, Strauss was trained in the rigorous discipline of Geistesgeschichte, intellectual history." New York Times Book Review. --Mikerussell 19:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup needed

I marked the section on Strauss in the public view as in need of cleanup because it reads poorly. Unfortunately I don't have the time right now to do it myself. Perhaps some other kind soul? --Beaker342 04:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I finally got some time to make the section more coherant and readable. If I have done any violence to what was there before, by all means, make changes.--Beaker342 06:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misplaced comment in Archive 1 repeated

On June 17th a user placed the below concern on the Archive page, ten days after the archive was created. I noticed it now, and since the user is new, I think they made a mistake in where to place the comment. Since it is 6 weeks old, the user may want to update it, but it seemed worthy of repeating here again.--Mikerussell 05:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nietzsche's Nihilism

The discussion of Heidegger's revisions on Nietzsche includes the unexpected parenthetical "the nihilism that Nietzsche regarded as unmitigated tragedy." I am not sure if this is Heidegger's reading of Nietzsche (if so it could use a cite), but if it's not, and is instead the reading of whoever wrote it, I think it should probably be revised. Nietzsche thought it was a danger, thought Schopenhauer got caught in it, but never have I read any discussion of nihilism as "unmitigated tragedy." If anything, the ubermensch is the mitigation; more, it's the solution to this "tragedy." Not to mention, putting the word "tragedy" in Nietzsche's mouth is particularly worrisome, given his work on the subject. I don't know Heidegger well enough to work on the section, but could someone take a look at it?

Abrady 04:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

If "tragedy" is used here in the sense of sad or disasterous, then it's just a poor choice of words. Otherwise (of tragedy is referred to here as the art form), I'm not sure how nihilism can be likened to tragedy in Nietzsche's work. Nietzsche associated tragedy with Wagner and classical sources, but later moved away from this, first by distancing himself from the balance found in "The Birth of Tragedy" and then later by falling out with Wagner. If anything, the Ubermensch is not a mitigation of tragedy, but a transvaluation of it. --Vector4F 23:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be the editor's assessment of Nietzsche, not Heidegger's. It's accurate insofar as humanity would have been better had Christianity and the subsequent nihilism it produced had never come along, but since they have, they each open up new possibilities as each is transcended. I don't have any huge problems with the paragraph as it stands. --Beaker342 00:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong Jacob Klein is linked to in article

Leo Strauss' friend Jacob Klein, was not the Jacob Klein linked to from the article. His freind was tutor and dean at St. John's College in Annapolis MD, and wrote a commentary on Plato's Meno, The Origins of Greek Mathematical Thought, an Introduction to Aristotle. The other Jacob Klein linked to was a mathematician physicist.

I un-wikied the Jacob Klein, is the this person worthy of an article themselves? and thus a disambiguation page too? I don't know enough to say either way.--Mikerussell 04:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Straussian Schools of Thought

The below was deleted, but the article it was based on was added to the bibliography, (Thomas West's article). The below passage is pretenious. The content could certainly be included without starting a whole new section- oddly placed at the end of the article like a hiccup- and without using so many words. As written it takes one aspect of Strauss' thought and inflates its significance into a ridiculous 'schools of thought' dicothmy that supposedly shapes and define all scholars influenced or studying Strauss; it is American-centric too, and could be judiciously incorporated into the body of the article in a couple of places, citing Bloom's and Mansfield's varity of opinion according to Thomas West's article Jaffa Versus Mansfield Does America Have A Constitutional or A "Declaration of Independence" Soul?.Online

Two schools of thought known as East-Coast and West-Coast Straussianism developed from Strauss's work. The branch off of West-Coast Straussianism from East-Coast Straussianism arose from a dispute between two Straussians Alan Bloom and Harry Jaffa over the cultural significance of "myths" in society.

East-Coast Straussianism

The adherents of East-Coast Straussianism believe that "myths" or "noble lies" are essential for the stability of society, and that the writings of Plato sought to promulgate these "myths" for the good of society. However, East-Coast Straussians believe that outside of these "myths" no objective societal principles exist from which to govern a society.

West-Coast Straussianism

"West-Coast Straussianism was originated by Harry Jaffa founder of the Claremont Institute a think tank of West-Coast Straussian who disagreed with the East-Cost Straussians that no objective principles existed with which to rule a society, and therefore, societal good was not solely based on these "myths" but that it also entailed some self-evident truths.^[1]

Whoever wrote this should, if they feel it is important to include, cite the sources from which the opinions attributed to Bloom and Jaffa come from, or at least give the debate a context in Strauss' writings as well, as to where these issues arose.--Mikerussell 03:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibibliography

I would like to add the following books to the 'Bibliography on Strauss' section:

Benardete, Seth, Encounters and Reflections: Conversations with Seth Benardete, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 229 pages, 2002.

Drury, Shadia B., The Political Ideas of Leo Strauss, New York: St. Martin's Press, 256 pages, 1988.

Lampert, Laurence, Leo Strauss and Nietzsche, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 229 pages, 1996.

Neumann, Harry, Liberalism, Durham: Carolina Academic Press, 336 pages, 1991.

Rosen, Stanley, "Hermeneutics as Politics" in Hermeneutics as Politics, New York: Oxford University Press, 1987, 87-140.

Zuckert, Catherine H., Postmodern Platos, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 351 pages, 1996

I think Benardete's book should be included as a counterpoint to the reminisces of Ms. Norton. The first book by Drury, Political Ideas was probably her best book. Lampert, with Rosen and Benardete, represent the strongest philosophical (i.e., non-political) students of Strauss, and should be represented in the bibliography. Neumann is the Straussian wild-man and this possibility also needs to be noted. Ms. Zuckert's book has three chapters out of nine on Strauss and is very smart on the post-Nietzschean representation of Plato. Some of these books (e.g., Drury, Rosen) are now out in second editions. I have not seen them so I cite the first edition.

Pomonomo2003 00:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strauss had a daughter

According to his NYT obit, Strauss also had a daughter named Jenny Clay as well as his (step?)son Thomas, and three grandchildren. "Dr. Leo Strauss, Scholar, Is Dead" NYT October 21, 1973.

Jenny Strauss Clay is a professor of classics at the University of Virginia and occasionally writes about her father. http://phronesis.org/article.php3?id_article=13

His two children were accounted for in the article. In the previous paragraph it was stated he adopted his neice when her parents died in Eygpt (this undoubtedly is Jenny Clay Strauss), I am not sure when this was done, or how old she was when he legally adopted her. His son was also adopted since his wife was a widow with a young child when they married. Accordingly, I reinserted the comment about no biological children. It is a small point of probably no biographical significance beyond a recognition of life's fate, but why not keep it in if it is true?--Mikerussell 03:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Typo?

"He contended that great thinkers are bold but wary of pitfalls, while scholars benefit from surer ground."

Shouldn't this say that great thinkers are bold but unwary, meaning heedless?

I don't think so, but I did not write that part, although I am familiar with the passage. The biggest problem with this article is it lack references (I think it only has 1 official citation- although some sections have references in the text which should be reformated and placed at the end). I say problem not becuase the article is wrong, but it does refer to many of his works and if the correct cite was added it would reinforce the points. I am just as guilty as others for being too lazy to add the references, but I just don't have time to do it lately.--Mikerussell 15:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linked from HuffingtonPost

This article was linked from a post on HuffPo this morning and is also high on the list of HuffPo posts on Yahoo! here in relation to today's election, so we may be seeing some vandalism in the near future. Just a heads up. Dekimasu 09:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)