Talk:Kennewick Man

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Contents 1 Misc 2 Re: Scientific significance 3 Caucasoids and Mongoloids 4 The resemblance to Patrick Stewart 5 Misleading use of Caucasian

[edit] Misc

An event mentioned in this article is a July 28 selected anniversary

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I remember that the Tri-City Herald (the local newspaper) reported that some drunk guys had found him in the bushes during the hydroplane races, and they ran, thinking it was a murder scene. Can anyone with the time and energy verify that? Sword 16:22, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

According to a movie I just watched in Archaeology Class, they stubbed their toe on something, lifted it out of the water, and it was a skull. They then hid the skull in the bushes thinking it was a recent victim, and called the cops. Tezkah i-dont-know-what-time-it-is, 2 Nov 2004

[edit] Re: Scientific significance

In the original article from the main page, the contributor states that many native americans can trace "caucasian" ancestry in their DNA. However, it's not stated whether the genetic marker for caucasian predates the known colonization from Norsemen in North America or 15th & 16th Century Europeans "after" Columbus. If peoples from the European continent indeed mixed with native "mongloid" peoples 12,000 - 9,000 years ago, this is the first time I've heard of it.

Aside from the Clovis theory that ancient Europeans crossed over the Atlantic ice sheet between 20,000 - 18,000 B.C. [1], I've never heard any other claims regarding this. Therefore, I find the article misleading and unscientific in its claim.

Thoughts? Bourbon King 23:04, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)Bourbon_King

There is a genetic marker which is found in some Native Americans and some Europeans. This does not refer to contemporary persons of mixed blood. It is simply evidence of a common ancestry. Fred Bauder 22:54, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean common ancestry as "human beings" in general? If so, I agree with that genetic study, but I'm referring to it's support of Caucasian/Mongloid intermixing during the time of Kennewick Man, which is how I interpreted the article's statement.

Also, I remember the PBS program on this subject and it seemed to favor the belief that some peoples from the Asian continent had similar features to Caucasians but weren't actually Caucasian, but of a group of peoples in Asia with different looking features. The Ainu of Japan were mentioned as possible genetic ancestors to Kennewick Man. Bourbon King 23:04, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I removed the phrase "(although unreliable in cases such as this due to contamination)". See the DOI memo at http://www.cr.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/c14memo.htm for more information. Also, I changed the "Clovis spearhead" to "Cascade point" as per Dr. John L. Fagan's (a recognized authority on lithic analysis and replication of stone tools) analysis available at http://www.cr.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/fagan.htm. Earthsound 22:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Caucasoids and Mongoloids

In terms of facial features, the only pre-Columbian North Americans who generally fit the mongoloid type are Eskimos. Chatters forgot to mention that. The term "pious fraud" comes to mind.

I removed this from the article, added by the same anonymous user who wrote the above & without citation:

For what it's worth, modern Indians generally have dolichocranic skulls and narrow, prognathous faces, but apparently the plaintiffs were unaware of this. In fact, many of the "differences" between Kennewick man and modern Indians actually end up with Caucasians between Kennewick man and East Asians, and either modern Indians either between Caucasians and Kennewick man or Kennewick man between modern Indians and Caucasians. Chatters et al. seem to have engaged in a type of pious fraud, particularly in the realm of prognathism; Caucasians are the most orthognathous racial category.

If someone wants to clean it up and provide citation, I have no objection to its reinsertion. Binabik80 04:07, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I grew up on Pine Ridge, and generally Indians don't look like mongoloids at all. At least not if you're using a definition of "mongoloid" which includes peoples of the Pacific Rim but doesn't include everyone on this planet today. Yes, that is how non-mongoloid Indians look. But if you want a citation, there are literally thousands of photographs of Indains from the late 19th/early 20th century, and paintings of Indians before that. You can look at Edward S. Curtis's The North American Indian for some photographs. For actual data, Earnest Hooton did some digging at Pecos Pueblo and found "pseudo-Australoids", "pseudo-Negroids", "pseudo-Alpines", and "long-faced Europeans". Hooton's own interpretation was tainted by the racism prevalent in anthropology during that time, but his data are good.

BTW, it was a Cascade point in Kennewick man, not a Clovis point. Clovis was millennia before.

[edit] The resemblance to Patrick Stewart

That reference to Patrick Stewart seems a little out of place. (though amusing)

There's an article on Kennewick Man in the July 2005 issue of Harper's ("Mighty White of You: Racial Preferences Color America's Oldest Skulls and Bones," by Jack Hitt) in which it is suggested that Chatters' "reconstruction" was in fact deliberately patterned after Patrick Stewart, quoting Chatters as saying "I turned on the TV, and there was Patrick Stewart— Captain Picard, of Star Trek— and I said, 'My God, there he is! Kennewick Man'" (Hitt 50). The article goes on to claim that facial reconstructions from skulls are of dubious value since the most recognizable facial features are due to soft tissue rather than bone structure. Does anyone have a reference to a scholarly treatment of the Kennewick "reconstruction"? --Cholling 15:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The resemblance to Patrick Stewart was very widely reported in popular media and it was often alluded to in the discussions since. If you have sources about how the resemblance may not be accurate, add something, but this should not be excised from the article. Jonathunder 03:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

1. "If you have sources about how the resemblance may not be accurate..": That's not the point at all, the question is: Is it relevant to the article? Do we have to point the readers attention to things that he can see for himself? No.
2. "was very widely reported in popular media": It was indeed, and that wasn't a relevant issue then - and it's much less so nowadays, as the Kennewick Man is not a interesting subject for the press -especially the tabloids- anymore.
3. "it was often alluded to in the discussions since..": Yes, in blogs, forums and with Harper's and such like. AFAIK it wasn't an issue with anthropologues or ethnologues. Among them, the scientific value of facial reconstructions from skulls in general might be an issue, but certainly not the resemblance of a particular reconstruction to a -good gracious- Shakespearean and Star Trek actor...

Summing up, it's just noise that adds nothing wortwhile and, yes, it"seems a little out of place" in an encyclopedic article. Doubts about facial reconstructions could be of interest here, provided the info can be substantiated. Anyway, even then, something like "the accuracy is disputed" should be added to the images caption, not more. If there are specific doubts regarding the Kennewick Man's reconstructions, put that in.

If you must, add something like "a resemblance to Patrick Stewart was noted by the popular press" to the caption. Superfluous, but less embarassing, providing some context and not giving it more wikipedia real estate than it deserves. --tickle me 05:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It is not irrelevant because this is not just a summation of scientific views--that's not what Wikipedia is. We also report popular culture, along with many other things. The resemblance was extremely widely reported and commented on, and it an association that many people still make. It is not our place to censor that out because we think it is unscientific. If scientists call it that, report that. Report the issue and the controversy, but do not edit it out. Jonathunder 17:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd be glad if Cholling could elaborate on the controversy, possibly backing it up by something more substantial than Harper's. Anyway, that's not at all what we're talking about. "It is not our place to censor" ...nor to state the obvious, give it undue weight and to present it out of context - especially, if popular culture is what you'd like to see mentioned. I changed accordingly. --tickle me 00:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading use of Caucasian

It is my opinion (also expressed by others) that one of the mistakes made early in the investigation of Kennewick Man was the use of the term "Caucasoid" to describe certain facial features (implied from skeletal measurement). This terminology is at best confusing to the public, and at worst, outright offensive. Caucasoid as used by Chatters, etc. was never intended as a synonym for Caucasian (or Caucasian a synonym for European), and both of these terms can have multiple definitions, depending on context (geography vs. general appearance vs. facial bone structure vs. ancestry).

It was the contention very early on that the subject was similar to Polynesian and Ainu peoples, following from the presence of specific "Caucasoid" skeletal features as is also found in those groups. It is made very clear in Chatters's book that Kennewick Man was not Caucasian and did not appear to be Caucasian, but rather something entirely different (and indeed rather different from any people on earth today). It was regrettable that the popular media could not distinguish the terminology, and thus regrettable that it was used outside a forensic setting.

As a result this excerpt is not precise enough to describe the issue, and is possibly misleading:

"Further research, however, has shown that Kennewick Man is possibly not Caucasian at all. Rather, some researchers now suggest he most closely resembles Polynesian or Ainu peoples."

I will give the matter some more thought, but if no changes or discussion occur after a week or so, will probably edit this to read.

" The presence of forensic Caucasoid features inferred from measurements of the skull is not synonymous with a modern Caucasian appearance, nor does is it imply a European ancestry. Rather, researchers have used these measurements to suggest a skeletal similarity to Polynesian or Ainu peoples, both of which have features that are referred to as Caucasoid by forensicists. Further, while the match to these modern groups is strongest, some of Kennewick Man's facial metrics are much more similiar to those from other Paleoindian (Paleoamerican?) examples than those from any modern human group." ref: Chatters, Ancient Encounters

I thought that the only time that a "Caucasian" origin was considered was from before a detailed examination was made, when the possibility of a 19th centrury settler was still a concern. This was ruled out very quickly.

I have mixed feelings about all this. The Caucasian/Caucasoid mess probably has to be addressed since it had an impact on events following the discovery of Kennewick man. Certainly, it isn't fair to the first forensic scientists that studied Kennewick Man to suggest that they thought that Kennewick Man was likely of European origin or appearance. Yet, it is understandable why people would think Caucasian when they hear Caucasoid. The comparison to Patrick Stewart's head did not help calm the controversy at all. I admit that I am concerned about relying so heavily on Chatters's own account in this, but it is a clear account of what the thought was at the time as the data was coming in.

A link out to the forensic/ facial craniometry entries treatment of "Caucasoid" may be helpful. I am concerned about the extent that any of this can be subverted by some groups with a non-neutral point of view, but since they are already doing so on their own websites, trying to bring in more clinical perspective may help.

In summary, I would like to see it quickly explained that Kennewick man had certain facial metrics similar to specific groups around the Pacific; that these facial features are sometimes termed by forensicists to be Caucasoid, using a very distinct definition from that of the more general word, Caucasian; but overall Kennewick Man appears to be more similar to other Paleoamericans than to any modern humans. This is handled well in the following paragraph, but the sentence I am raising an issue with is not an effective lead-in. (Forgot to sign -- see below)

Edit: I am still mulling it over. The issue might be the use of "now" in that sentence to refer to an opinion reached several years ago, after which there has been more study. Thus it reads as if the more recent findings contradict earlier work that they actually substantiate. 24.58.1.138 02:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I have gone back to Ancient Encounters, as well as the latest Time article. The use of the word "now" was part of the Wikipedia entry several years ago -- so that is part of the issue. It appears that an update to the entry is in order. I also note that the cause of death is _not_ known; they have simply ruled out the spear point (though it appears to me that this is also a reiteration of something suspected several years ago). If it is known, then details and reference are needed. 24.58.1.138 02:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)