Talk:Józef Piłsudski

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Contents 1 Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles 2 Pilsudzki's views 3 Lithuanian birthplace? 4 Fascist? 5 Comments by anon user 6 A bit hagiographics 7 Tram stop Independence 8 Removed fragments by anon - vandalism or not? 9 Battle of Warsaw 10 Proposed ref 11 Damaged box 12 Polish-Soviet War NPOV 13 education, culture... 14 Pilsudski's Nationality 15 Pictures 16 On failure of Riga, Międzymorze and minorities 17 Category:Organizations and people who predicted the collapse of the USSR 18 2x references 19 The Commonwealth had defended the interests of its predominantly Polish nobility 20 Good Article Tag 21 Conrad quote 22 Leader into Article 23 among them supporter of Dmowski 24 Jewish minority 25 Zułów (today Zalavas) 26 Intro wording 27 to his concerns over the Maginot Line 28 JP in PSB 29 GA re-nomination passed 30 Anti-Semitism 31 Action still needed in response to peer review 32 Removed unsourced statements 33 Audio license information 34 Jóżef Piłsudski category 35 Too many images 36 Religion ?

[edit] Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles

This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because Not NPOV -- See Criterion #4 for GA or discussion below—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Francisx (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Pilsudzki's views

So, how did Pilsudski move from being a revolutionary socialist to Polish nationalism and anti-communism?

Also, I've found at least one site (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWpilsudski.htm) which makes opposite claims about Pilsudski at Versailles (!). -- Pde 05:30, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't think he really moved in the sence of changing his worldview. Socialists and communists have always opposed each other, and socialism does not exclude nationalism. In other words, Pilsudski wanted to create a socialist national (not to confuse with national socialist!) state -- rather than e.g. making it another soviet republic.

[edit] Lithuanian birthplace?

May we include the Pilsudski's birthplace name in lithuanian, in brackets or any other way? For even I, living here in Vilnius, don't know, where it is. Or, maybe, it's in Belorussia now? --Linas Plankis. Vilnius. 2004.01.06

I have no idea what's the lithuanized version, but the village is located some 60 km. NE from Wilno. AFAIK nothing to see there; the mansion does not exist anymore (burnt by the bolsheviks in 1920) and the only remnant is an oak tree planted in where Pilsudskis cradle once stood.Halibutt 08:41, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

EDIT/ Just found the lithuanian name - it's Zalavas. You can see a picture of the village here.Halibutt 08:45, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I understand it's a pre-war picture. Now it's a depressing, ruined kolkhoz and absolutely nothing to see apart from the oak tree Halibutt mentioned. I added the Lithuanian name as Linas asked. I also think there's no need to write a seperate article about that village, so I suggest changing Zulow from hypertext to plain text. Kpalion 15:26, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually I am strongly opposed to the fact that Pilsudski' birthplace is refered to as Russia (as well as school he attended in Vilnius - city is refered to as being Russian). Come on people, this land was always called Lithuania, and to name it 'Russia' is very incorrect to say the least. Lithuania was just ocuppied by the Russian empire at the time Pilsudski was born (the same with Poland).

So I suggest deleting links to Russia and leaving Lithuania only. Because otherwise it sounds...incorrect - I am trying to be polite. Otherwise, how can you explain that there is no reference to Russia writing about Pilsudski' studies years in Ukraine? At that time it was also a part of the Russian empire but there is no such reference to Russia as in the case of Lithuania.

This part of the article is VERY wrong, so please improve it.80.91.145.210 17:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fascist?

Pilsudzki was a dictator, granted. But a fascist? Can you give some source for that? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:33, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

He was the greatest Pole of all time and my great grandfather was proud to serve under him in the Polish Victory War of 1920 against Russia

Now this is why this article was delisted. Colonel Mustard 07:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments by anon user

10-31-2004: Jozef Pilsudski was never "president" of Poland. He was, immediately after World War I, literally "Chief of State" (Naczelnik Panstwa), akin to a dictator ad interim. The box below his portrait is gratuitous and misleading, as it introduces no new information of importance while slipping in inaccuracies, e.g. Pilsudski's legal wife when he was Chief of State was Maria, not Aleksandra. Likewise, calling him a "military officer" (he was one, though self-taught) is somewhat like calling Napoleon an "artilleryman." The current guide to pronouncing Pilsudski's name in English is inaccurate and unreadable. There are further inaccuracies and infelicities in the article as it stands, which it would be well to correct.

1. Jozef Pilsudski was never "president" of Poland - Indeed, "head of state" would be better. Also, he was chosen as a president of Poland but he did not accept it. So, technically speaking he was a president, but this is but a detail. Anyway, he is called "head of state" and "chief of state" throughout the article.
2. The box below his portrait is gratuitous and misleading, as it introduces no new information of importance - it is similar to boxes on most of important statesmen. Since most of them have now very long and detailed articles, the boxes are something in between the header (which gives only the most basic data) and the full article (which might be a tad too long for someone who only wants to check some facts and figures. Also, the boxes are a great help for those who print the articles.
3. Pilsudski's legal wife when he was Chief of State was Maria, not Aleksandra - corrected.
4. calling him a "military officer" (he was one, though self-taught) is somewhat like calling Napoleon an "artilleryman." - so, what profession you propose? If he had any, it was definitely an officer. One can hardly call "revolutionist" or "president" a profession.
5. The current guide to pronouncing Pilsudski's name in English is inaccurate and unreadable - what is inaccurate? Also, it is not a guide on how to pronounce the name in English since it is assumed that all users of English Wikipedia already know English language and know how they pronounce the name. The IPA code explains how the name should be pronounced in the original language - that is Polish. As such it is (to my knowledge) correct. I can't say it's unreadable either since IPA is used worldwide.
6. There are further inaccuracies and infelicities in the article as it stands, which it would be well to correct. - feel free to list them here or, even better, correct them yourself. This is wikipedia, all are equal and all can edit the articles :) Also, why don't you register? It's free and it's always better to speak with someone who has a name... [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:40, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

11-01-2004. Dear Mr. Halibutt,

Thanks for your response to my 10-31-2004 comments.

My objection to Pilsudski's career box is that his career doesn't lend itself to boxing. It is too complex for so simple a procedure--less analogous to the career of an ordinary president than to that of, say, Napoleon or de Gaulle, neither of whom (thank God) has a career box (though each is supplied with a generous "contents" box). Each--Napoleon and de Gaulle--is described as a "general and politician." In the case of de Gaulle, at least, I would prefer "statesman"--as I would also for Pilsudski, on whose career de Gaulle seems to have modeled his own. (Please see the English-language Wikipedia de Gaulle article, which provides a hint of circumstantial evidence for this assertion.)

My reference to pronunciation is, of course, to authentic Polish pronunciation, as presented to Anglophone readers in a way that they can readily absorb. What percent even of Wikipedia readers are conversant with IPA? How many will have the patience to look up an IPA table, or to interpret it? Though it may not be as "scientifically correct," why not use unambiguous English-language-based transliterations?

Perhaps I will attempt some revisions to the Pilsudski article. The subject deserves a good collaborative effort.

I may consider registering, though--apart from the practicalities of communication facilitation--the idea of monastic anonymity holds an appeal for me. Do you recommend use of full or partial name? initials? pseudonym? Any substantial pros or cons?

Thanks,

Anonymous

1. Dear anon, as to the statesmen box - I still believe it has more pros than cons. It's not designed for those who would like to know every single detail of Piłsudski's life. It's for those who want to know only what is said in the header and a tad more, but not too much.
2. As to his profession - I personally would like all of the following included: "revolutionary, journalist, officer, statesmam" all are true and any of them is true as well. Staesman is as good as the others, I'll change that.
3. As to IPA- there is no alternative to it so far. Either we want to give the reader a chance to find out how the name is pronounced or we try to make some approximation. English phonetics is not too good at representing other languages and there's little difference between the way a sound can be described using English phonetics and the way an average Brit or American would read the name. "English-based transliteration" is just as bad since it is both ambiguous and wrong. "Yoozehph Peewsootskee" can be read as either [juzεf piwsuʣki], [jʊzef piwsʊʦki], [ju:zəf piʍsʊʦki] or any other variation - none of which is correct. I added an .ogg pronounciation key for all those who are not able to read IPA, hope that helps.
4. Indeed, the article needs significant expansion and revision. It's great that there are people out there who are willing to help.
5. I appreciate your idea of monastic anonimity, it's not a thing you meet very often on the web. Of course it is much easier to talk to people who have some name (or a pseudo) since you can always check who they are on their user page or at least check their contributions to see what they do and how they do it. However, it's your choice and your contributions are equally welcome. Also, you might be interested in my recent article on Maria Piłsudska. I would like to add an article on the other Maria Piłsudska (his mother) one day as well.

-- [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 14:56, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

The statesmen box is a really useful tool for statistical info, used througout Wikipedia for similar purposes. I recommend we either leave it or expand it. I strongly recommend registering, if for no other reason that for people keeping a tab on article vandalism each 'anon IP edit' screams 'likely vandal, likely vandal' and I have to waste a little of my time checking what was done with the artcle. And as Halibutt wrote, once you have your own username here, we can talk and know who is it we are talking with (as in 'this is the guy who knows much about Pilsudzki'), and when I see your edit in the recent changes/history section I (hopefully) can just nod thinking ('another job well done') and don't have to bother checking the details of the edit looking for vandalism. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:05, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• How I long for the day when his spirit finds another body- Oh Marshal Pilsudski We People of Poland love you!

[edit] A bit hagiographics

The article could stand a little NPOVing, especially the part about the battle of Warsaw

What do you mean? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 20:06, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Pilsudski was a brutal dictator and an incredibly controversial figure in Polish history. He was a poor general, a poor politican, a poor strategist and his insane invasion of the Soviet Union came close to destroying his own country. The article simply paints him as a visionary statesman, which fails to capture the controversy or the criticism.--Francisx 23:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tram stop Independence

This quotation looks in Polish language as follows: "Wysiadłem z czerwonego tramwaju na przystanku niepodległość". There was never a square named after Independence in Warsaw, neither in the times of Piłsudski, nor later. The square Logologist was probably referring to is Saski Sq. (Plac Saski), which wasn't renamed until after the war - to Victory Sq. (Plac Zwycięstwa). Currently it is known as Piłsudski Sq., by the way.

There of course is an Independence Avenue in Warsaw (Aleje Niepodległości), but the street was not built and named until after Polish-Bolshevik War, not to mention the moment when Piłsudski "got out of the red tramway". Oh, I forgot that there's also a tiny Independence Str. (Ulica Niepodległości) which was built some time in the 1960's.

So, all in all, the quote from Piłsudski is original, but I doubt it was wordplay on any actual place on earth, one should understand it more figuratively. Especially that at the moment of the famous Piłsudski's "getting out of tramway", all of Poland was still under foreign rule and I doubt any of the occupants liked the idea of Polish independence enough to name squares or streets after it. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 23:44, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

This article repeats this quote several times in at least two different variants, and a third one can be found on Wikiquote. Can we agree on the best one and get rid of the rest (or at least move all alternatives to Wikiquote)? Some of the variants are rather hideous 'let's adress each other with honorific titles'... On a related note, the endnotes in this article are a mess and should be upgraded to the < ref > system.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Inarguable the most eloquent is the one provided by Pilsudki's poland.gov biography, also which makes the most sense. This is why I inserted it into the quotes section and renewed its link a while back. Эйрон Кинни (t) 10:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed fragments by anon - vandalism or not?

198.81.26.7 did some editing, most of which I think border on vandalism. He deleted:

• the Commonwealth had given mutual protection to its constituent peoples against the Teutonic Order, the Mongols, the Russians, the Turks, the Swedes and other predatory neighbors until the partitions of the late 18th century. - note about Commonwealth past successes
• new democratic - reference that Poland was a democracy
• The adoption of a new Polish constitution in April 1935, tailored by Pilsudski's supporters to his specifications--providing for a strong presidency--came too late for Pilsudski to seek that office; but the April Constitution would serve Poland to the outbreak of World War II and would carry its Government in Exile through to the end of the war and beyond

I will add back 2 first parts, as I know they are correct. I will leave the third one for for those who know more about the April Constitution. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 09:36, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The third statement is correct too. It would not suffer from some more internal links though (like Polish Government in Exile, for instance). It was indeed a move towards stronger presidency, it was not changed until WWII and it was the legal basis for the existence of the Government in Exile. The exact explanation is that the April 1935 constitution gave the president the right to name his successor during the war. The successor took the office with the very moment the earlier president said so and was the head of state until the Peace Treaty is signed. As you probably know there was no peace treaty between Poland, Germany and the Soviet Union after the war. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 14:12, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Warsaw

Wouldn't it be appropriate to move paragraphs 4-6, under "Polish-Bolshevik War," to the article on the "Battle of Warsaw"? As they stand, these paragraphs seem a bit too detailed for inclusion in this article. Logologist 19:31, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed ref

Would there be objections to add the following reference to an article?

• "Figures of the 20th century. Józef Piłsudski: The Boss who Created his State Himself", Zerkalo Nedeli (the Mirror Weekly), Feb. 3-9, 2001, available online in Russian and in Ukrainian.

I invite Polish editors who can read in one of the two of the languages above to take a look. The disadvantage is that it is neither in English nor in Polish. The advantage is that it is available online, readable by many editors likely to be interested, well-written, covers the topic broadly and presents another view on this figure from outside of Poland. Feel free of course, to add the ref yourself. --Irpen 22:14, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Damaged box

The article's bio-summary box presently reads: "{{{Office}}}." I was unable to insert: "Chief of State." Who knows how to make this repair? logologist 20:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Polish-Soviet War NPOV

The fourth paragraph needs some attention to get it to conform to NPOV and factual standards. Most notably the assertion that "The claim that the Russian invasion was a reaction to initial Polish attacks is an effort of communist propaganda to conceal its intentions in 1920" contradicts an earlier statement that "April 1920, Marshal Piłsudski (as his rank had been since that March) signed an alliance with Ukraine's Symon Petliura, to conduct joint war against Soviet Russia. The Polish and Ukrainian armies, under Piłsudski's command, launched a successful offensive against the Russian forces in Ukraine." The claim that Piłsudski saved Western Europe from Soviet invasion needs to cite supporting sources or better yet, have its own Wikipedia article describing this historical debate. Finally, the general tone of the paragraph is ardently Pro-Polish in its combination of justifying the Polish participation in the war, demonizing the U.S.S.R., and finally presenting the claim that Poland saved Western civilization.

And did it not? Halibutt 15:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

No, it did not. There is zero evidence that the Soviet Union was ever preparing to invade Westen Europe, certainly not in the middle of the Russian Civil War. Pilsudski was an opportunist who thought he could take advantage of a weak Russia to carve out more power for himself. It was a foolish move, that almost cost Polish independence.--Francisx 23:18, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, mr Francis, that every knows there were orders given by Lenin to attack Hungary (Budapest) and German (German communist were already preapering to restart their revolution) so if after victory in war with Poland USSR would probably attack these countries. And I ask you: what then? Every kid knows that bolsheviks were planning to conquer the whole Europe. With millions of hands in Poland, Hungary and other countries and german weapons it wouldn't be a problem. So give more respect to the Pilsudski and Polish-Bolshevik war. Please, a little more. Mr Brak

[edit] education, culture...

Why is there no informations about Pilsudski's contributions to Poland's education, culture, etc. ? The article is incomplete as it is.

[edit] Pilsudski's Nationality

Since Pilsudski was not born in Poland, but in the Russian Partition of the extinct PLC, and in the part that was historically Lithuania, is his nationality a subject of debate? Were his family polonized Lithuanians or Belarusians? Is there evidence, genealogically or otherwise, that the Pilsudskis emigrated to this region from the historic Polish "heartland"? Obviously the Marshall himself placed great sentiment on the region (mother's grave and so forth), but is his actual ethicity debatable. Scholarly information would be more appreciated than nationalistic (from any side) ranting. Dr. Dan 14:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It's been discussed ad nauseam (or ad mortem defecantam, as we say in Poland) here and there over the past two years. To make long thing short, Piłsudski himself stated that he was Lithuanian, though on other occasions he referred to himself as a Pole. However, he referred to GDL rather than Republic of Lithuania and there was no contradiction in being both Lithuanian (by heart or by heritage of the GDL) and Polish (as the majority of Lithuanian gentry). It was quite common back in his times and earlier, note Mickiewicz writing in Polish on Belarus called by him Lithuania)...

Piłsudski's surname itself was toponymical as his ancestors (that is the starost of Upita, previously known as Bartłomiej Ginwiłł or Ginet) adopted the name in 1539, after their home village of Piłsudy near Taurogi. [1], [2], [3]. Halibutt 23:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC}

Thank you, Halibutt, for the clearing the matter up somewhat. Please be patient with the stupid. Let me digress for a moment with an anecdote about the Czech composer Dvorak. There was a daily radio contest, (muzyka poważna), in my hometown; the announcer said here's an "easy question", and asked in what rural U.S. city, did Dvorak spend his summers in the late 19th century, while he was in the United States. A young boy called in and correctly stated that it was in Spillville Iowa. Again, there was a brief reference to the "ease" of the question, and the child received a prize of some sort. This entire exchange angered me so greatly that I emailed the jerk of an announcer, a piece of my mind. "THEY ARE ALL EASY QUESTIONS, IF YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS". He wrote back, Dear Doctor, you are right, I shall apologize to the boy.

Please keep in mind that whether it has been discussed "here and there over the past two years", or not, there may be a child (like in my story), or an older person who is being exposed to the question, and the answer for the first time in their life. Some patience, please. I have not given up on the idea that Wikipedia is a forum to educate, even though lately I am slightly dissapointed in that some have made it a forum for POV pushing, and nationalistic propaganda. I am also considering the possibility of certain elements, deliberately creating these divisions (like a non-Pole making an anti-Ukrainian remark in an article that would be "sensitive" to Ukrainians, while posing as a Pole). Spent some time in the PRL, and know that game.

You say "Pilsudski himself stated that he was Lithuanian... Not disputing this, but what is the source for that, please? Dr. Dan 00:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Dan, the "ad nauseam" remark was simply an explanation on why I don't have enough patience to repeat all of the arguments and replied in short. It was not meant to offend anyone, believe me.

As to Piłsudski claiming he was Lithuanian, there's a lot of such remarks in his works (read many of them, though not all as he was quite a fertile journalist prior to 1914). Once he said that "Lithuanian is the best version of a Pole", on other occasion he stated that "Poland is like a donut - empty in the middle and sweet along the rims" and was generally known for such cutting remarks. Imagine the faces of the Dmowski's nationalists when Piłsudski stated he's Lithuanian in the Polish Sejm... BTW, his Polish "Lithuanianess" was one of many serious problems the nationalists had with Piłsudski and many of them hated him for that ([4], for instance).

Anyway, barely any of his memoirs and collected works were translated to English, but you might want to check this and this. Almost any biographical note mentions he was Polish-Lithuanian (much like Czesław Miłosz, Adam Mickiewicz and many, many more people. Halibutt 13:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I consider you highly intelligent, and a gentleman. When, and if I get "huffy", please do not take offense. None is meant. As you know, I'm a newer participant in Wikipedia, and I am not always aware of what has been discussed, or "resolved" in the past. I can imagine the frustration in sometimes having to have to recapitulate some of this information. Keep in mind that someone may be reading an article about "cabbages and kings", for the first time in their life, today. None of us should take for granted what the other knows, or does not know. If you knew me better, you would know that Nothing, and I mean Nothing, is more important to me than fairness, and a lack of bias, in generally all aspects of life. In the world we live in, it ain't easy!. The last place I want to see it, is in what I think is a great project, namely Wikipedia. I look forward to working together in the future to make our contributions less argumentative. In fact, I have lots I want to add to, and edit, that is far from this part of the world. There are still some aspects of POV pushing and propaganda, that I have to resolve, before I leave this area. I'm sure I will ruffle some feathers. I'm curious if you agree, that lots of what I perceive to be excessive bias and manipulation of history to have some merit? And I'm not referring to the names of towns and villages in Polish, either. In any case, I'm sure we'll be talking. Dr. Dan 14:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC) p.s. I really never heard of Stefan Rowecki, until I read the article a day or so ago.

[edit] Pictures

Some - from the time of PSW war - are certainly PD. Do we nee them? Article is in French, but I am pretty sure I can translate the captions :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Prokonsul, the pictures look great. I like that the French used both names, Wilno/Vilnius, in the appropriate caption. Dr. Dan 01:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep, it's good to do so on the first use of such names in the article (but never in the article title - it looks horrible then, at least for me). Let me know which pics captions I should translate and add to the article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 02:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm really not that picky. Some of them we've seen before. The unknown ones are better. It's all in the proper context that really matters. Dr. Dan 04:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On failure of Riga, Międzymorze and minorities

A page worth reading: [5]. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 05:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

That's quite a fascinating book. heqs 04:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Organizations and people who predicted the collapse of the USSR

This gentleman has been listed on the new [[Category:Organizations and people who predicted the collapse of the USSR]] can someone add a reference on the Category talk:Organizations and people who predicted the collapse of the USSR when he predicted this?

Thanks for the addition, I am interested in hearing from you.

Thanks, Travb 13:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2x references

This page has two seperate sections labled "references". Doesn't that seem a little odd? The titles should be a little more specific to help people navigate the page better. Kevlar67 05:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Commonwealth had defended the interests of its predominantly Polish nobility

I believ that this view, introduced without any discussion by an anonymous author, should be discussed. It's propaganda, because the interests of Lithuanian nobility were very good defended. Would the anonymous anti-Polish fighter specify, how the Lithuanian nobility was unequal? Xx236 07:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Nobility was the most priviliged class in the PLC, and most of the szlachta were Poles or polonized, thus the nobility was predominantly Polish. We can discuss if the sentence is necessary here, or perhaps expand it to show some positivie aspects of the Commonwealth, but in itself he sentence looks mostly correct to me.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The Lithuanian nobility spoke Ruthenian during more than 100 years after Jagiello and slowly introduced Polish (not mentionig Latin), but didn't change its nationality. You mean probbaly the 18 Century, when e.g. Ruthenian Kościuszko wanted to Polonize the peasants. But even in the 20 Century some Polish speaking people identified themselves as Lithuanians (krajowcy, Czesław Miłosz and his uncle Oscar). Mickiewicz in "Pan Tadeusz" calls the Poles "Mazur", his language is specific, partially edited (I'm not sure when the editing started). Xx236 08:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

True, but that doesn't change the fact that they were always a minority. Even at Union of Lublin Poland had 3:1 numerical advantage in nobility, and I'd have think that with polonization it the advantage incresed. That is not to say that the polonized Lithuanian nobles abandoned their roots: they still cosidered themselves 'Lithuanian' (i.e. from GDL) even if they spoko Polish rather then L or R. But the nobility was predominantly Polish, that cannot be disputed - no matter if we define Polish and 'ethnically Polish' or 'polonized'. Finally, note that at least some authors conclude that in those times being a noble meant being Polish (a citizen of the PLC).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Tag

Criterion #4 for a good article tag, requires that it follows the neutral point of view policy. In this respect: (a) viewpoints are represented fairly and without bias; (b) all significant points of view are fairly presented, but not asserted, particularly where there are or have been conflicting views on the topic.

This article is very clearly POV, a virtual hagiography of General Pilsudski, failing to address the great many critics of his dictatorship that there have been, including many within Poland who consider his regime to have been catastrophic for the country. I'm not trying to bias the article in the opposite direction, but these criticisms need to be brought up and addressed. I therefore move that the Good Article Tag be removed until NPOV is restored.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Francisx (talk • contribs) .

Francis, please remember to sign your post. You raise some interesting points, could you give some sources that support them? I.e. which sources would you recommend we use to make this more NPOVed?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The main oponents of Pilsudzki were national democrats. I can imagine Western comments about Poland if they ruled Poland and started some anti-Jewish actions. Pilsudzki was the best, what the Jews of Poland could have had. The other opponent were pro-Soviet leftists, some of them terrorists.

It's true that love to Pilsudzki was partially imposed at schools. Xx236 06:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I have now done a major copyedit to the article, it has been expanded and has many more references. I don't think the article is POVed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

This article has evolved very quickly into a detailed and satisfactory biography. Not to mention the 33 footnotes, which try their best to dispel pov accusations. Эйрон Кинни (t) 09:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

38 now. Эйрон Кинни (t) 23:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conrad quote

I've been trying to find some reference to this Conrad quote regarding Pilsudski, but have been utterly unsuccessful. It'd be neat to find some information on when and where Conrad wrote/said this, as the wording of this article currently implies that Conrad praised Pilsudski after the demise of the latter, whereas Conrad himself died in 1924, before Pilsudski took power in 1926. I assume this statement was made following Pilsudski's resignation in 1922. Thoughts, anyone? Colonel Mustard 07:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

We are thrice lucky: the text had an inline citation ((Zdzisław Najder, Conrad under Familial Eyes, Cambridge University Press, 1984, p. 239.)). The book is also available on Google Print ([6]). And finally the p.239 is available without restrictions: [7]. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Curious as to your opinion - would you say that implies he made that statement in 1920? I think that if the article could read "Conrad ... said, in (year), that..." it would make this less ambiguous. Colonel Mustard 05:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leader into Article

The sentence, ...He, more than any other Pole..., strikes me as a little POV, but I left it alone. I agree he was very, very, significant in the "resurrection" of Poland, but would have Poland been re-established without him? Dr. Dan 18:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

That's up to alternative history to decide :) The very sentence can be referenced to online ref (nr 1, see last para). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it implies that the other Poles and their contribitions were of lesser importance. In any case I left it alone. I am more of an admirerer than detractor of Dziadek. Dr. Dan 19:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I share your POV, although I'd expect (and wont object) that this will be changed. Note that near the end of the artcile there is a statement about controversiality of this figure, and that he was also portrayed in negative light. Although the article has currently no sources for that, and it would appear to be a minority view (judging for example from the positive portrayal of him on the official website of Polish gov.) I am sure that this will be expanded and some critical sources added.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

"He, more than any other Pole..." in the very top of the article is more than problematic. It certainly is an opinion and should be presented as such and not in the lead but in an assessment section and in an attributed form. I am sure we can find the citations of authors that think so. Still, to have such a blatant statement at the top, such citation should be not to a particular scholarly work, but to a reference work, that is written summarising the existing scholarship. Neither Britannica nor Columbia have such an amazing statement in the lead: (EB: "Polish revolutionary and statesman, the first chief of state ") (CE: "Polish general and politician. He was exiled (1887–92)..."). I think this is so obvious that there won't be a fight over this. If I were tagging it, I would tag "dubious" rather that "citation needed" for the reason above, but I beleive that won't be necessary and some of the authors would take care of this.

Second, P. was not of a Polish, but of a Polonized Lithuanian nobilty family, just like Mickiewicz, another iconic figure in Poland. This does not imply that he was alien to Poland by birth. Lithuanian nobilty was so polonized that they they used exculively Polish (and Latin), were all of the Catholic church and associated themselves firmly with Poland, but still ethnically he wasn't a Pole. Litvin or Litvak articles are in pity shape, but at least this article should reflect on that.

His mother's family name was known in Lithuania no less than the name "Pilsudski" as attested by the following:

"There was in Jmud a powerful family, the Billeviches, descended from Mendog, connected with many, and respected by all, in the district of Rossyeni".

I am sure our Polish friends know where this is from (besides, note Billeviches not Bilewicz ) but that's a separate issue to take care.

List of his names certainly doesn't belong to a lead. The first paragraph should we sufficient as a lead. As my edits to PL related articles judging for the PSW series are met by some with hostility, I, for now, bring up some obvous things at talk. --Irpen 04:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Piłsudzki wasn't a Litvak. Xx236 09:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

My source calls him a Litvin. And judging from what we know about his father's and mother's Billeviches line he indeed was. --Irpen 16:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the first issue (He, more then...) was already addressed and the lead is more NPOVed now. I tentatively agree with your agruments about his origins, but what would you like to add to the article? Billewiczowie were likely a middle szlachta family, with some notable memebers, although I don't think it's a matter of much importance to that article (again, feel free to be bold and prove me wrong :)). On a related note, see Leon Billewicz, and I cound 7 member of the family in PSB (User:Piotrus/List_of_Poles/Biergel-Bzowski), starting from 16th century. List of altenative names are often found in the lead, but I won't object if they are moved (just I can't see where?). It's great we start from the talk, but I don't foresee much reverts over those issues, they don't see too controversial (of course, I may be just too optimistic...).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't need to be bold to prove anything here. I thought it is obvious and I had no doubt that the the source of my quote above is easily recognizable.[8] --Irpen 19:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL, I actually thought about this, but well, we cannot use Sienkiewicz for historical references, now, can we? :)--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hold on a sec, useable or not, do you question that both JP's father (also Pilsudski and mother, the Billevich) are of Polonized Lithuanian' nobilty rather than the Polish one? If not, the article should say so and we move on to other issues. --Irpen 20:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

How would you propose to word it? This *may* get tricky, but I'd like to see your version.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

My recent edit and objection concerning ...He more than any other Pole..., was because of its position in the lead of the article, and its being an opinion, rather than an encyclopedic entry that you would typically find in a reference work. I personally have mixed emotions about the statement, because on the one hand, it's largely true, and on the other hand, it diminishes the enormous work and sacrifices of many, many, people who worked towards the same end. That being said, I didn't intend to start a new "war" over the issue. On the other matter, somewhere on these very talk pages talk pages, I discussed Pilsudki's national origins with Halibutt. He, as well as many others, agree that the Pilsudski family was of Lithuanian origin (not many Lithuanians in the 1930's liked the fact), from Samogitia, and on many occasions, he personally made remarks to that effect. Nothing to lose sleep over. Finally the article seems a tad bit long (which I also do not object to), and more of an actual Biography, than an Encyclopedia article. Perhaps it could be trimmed a little. Whatever the consensus is, is O.K. with me. Dr. Dan 22:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

If by trimmed you mean deletion of any info, I strongly object to it. If you mean moving to a subartcle, I don't mind, but I personally prefer longer to shorter and thus will leave this to others to 'summarize' if they feel some parts are too long.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, deletion is a strong word, yet there is a lot of non-encyclopecic information in the article, that is unnecessary, and is over the top. When I copy-edit, and do so of my own volition, or am requested to do so by others, I try to leave the essence of the original contributor alone, and make sense out of it in English. It's not only difficult, but ocassionally I get chided for throwing my POV into the ring. Sometimes I do, but most often I do not. Earlier in my Wikipedia "experience," I attempted to make small copy edits to Russian contributors (I wasn't even registered with a user name), and absurd arguments became fights, and I left these edits alone. The mistakes remain grammatically flawed, and humorous, and will stay that way until someone else bothers to correct them, (not all of my Russian friends). I have better luck with requests for copy edits from Lithuania, Poland, and Ukraine (note they are alphabetically listed), mostly by email, and I'm happy to comply with the requests when I have time. Again these copy edits do not always reflect my own viewpoints. Lately, I have tried to stay out of some really absurd and contentious arguments, between people that go from article to article, fighting each other. Its a waste of time, and borders on intellectual onanism. Dr. Dan 02:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] among them supporter of Dmowski

supporters? Xx236 09:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Fixed. But be bold.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish minority

The article does not discuss the attitude of Piłsudski toward the Jews. Xx236 09:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see this raised in any sources, other then some vogue remarks that as he was tolerant to various minorities he had good rapport with Jews (again we see an interesting counterpoint to Dmowski, who was often accused of anti-semitism). We have a photo in elinks to include, if you want.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• [9]
• Pilsudski issued a blanket decree granting citizenship to 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Soviet Union
• For the majority of Polish Jews, Pilsudski's death was a shock

Xx236 14:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the sources. I will see if I have time to add something from them, feel free to do so before me :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zułów (today Zalavas)

Both point to the same Zalvas. Either

• Zułów (today Zalavas) or
• Zułów (today Zalavas)

Xx236 09:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind either.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro wording

"...considered to be responsible for Poland's re-establishment following World War I."

"...and is considered to be largely responsible for Poland's resurrection, after almost one hundred and twenty years of its disapearence, having been partitioned 1772-1795."

I honestly don't see this edit as an improvement. First "re-establishment" is more NPOV than "resurrection", with its religious overtones. Second, the the longer version has a flowery air to it that supports the "hagiographical" tone that some critics have complained about. Thirdly, the last two phrases are perhaps unnecessary digressions, seeing that the article on Pilsudski, not the history of Poland.

I should add that Dr Dan's other edits have been excellent, IMO.--Chris 23:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] to his concerns over the Maginot Line

What about his concerns about the Soviet policy? Xx236 14:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

What about them?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Pilsudzki wanted to have equal relationships with Germany and SU so Poland had treaties with both countries. Xx236 07:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe we already mention the non-agression pacts and such. If you have more refs, or want to expand/clarify someting... go right ahead.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] JP in PSB

The Polish Polski Słownik Biograficzny online portal [10] had quite a few interesting items that should be linked, including IIRC the downloadable only surviving audio recording of Piłsudski's voice ("O śmiechu"), not to mention an extensive bio. Unfortunatly the site is down and will likely be down until the end of the month. I will see if I can dig up any info through google cache or net archive, but for now I am just leaving this note here for myself and others to check this site periodically if it is back online and when it is, to raid for info :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately this is not the only surviving record. There is also his famous monologue on the idea of voice recording, the one with the question to whom would the voice belong after being recorded. Unfortunately, the guy did not speak publicly too often... I must say I love his style, both as a journalist and as a speaker. //Halibutt 06:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I heard about this, but I thought there was only one recording and this was the one and the same? Would you have any links to that one? Where did I read about it...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Here you go :) //Halibutt 16:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA re-nomination passed

I promoted the article since the criterias were met toward the modifications requested for the first GA nomination. Lincher 03:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Semitism

Shmuel Israel has made the unsourced and unbacked claim that Pilsudski was an anti-Semite, not unlike Hitler. Pilsudski was not an anti-Semite. I know this for the following reasons:

• Polish Jews under Pilsudski's government flourished (they weren't killed or persecuted for their ethnic background or religion). As a matter of fact, they loved Pilsudski. Did you not see the photo of him greeting Polish Jews in Krakow?
• Your claim was unsourced.
• From all that I know, Pilsudski, unlike Hitler, never made an anti-Semitic remark.

If you provide the article with a valid and definitive source and/or reference, then the claim can stay, but for the time being, I removed it. Эйрон Кинни (t) 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, especially as we have good refs to show his pro-Jewish stance (see #Jewish minority).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 05:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Action still needed in response to peer review

The peer review revealed that this article has too many links to solitary years.

This task is easy with the aid of a 'dates' tab in edit mode. Simply copy the entire contents of User:Bobblewik/monobook.js to your own monobook. Then follow the instructions in your monobook to clear the cache (i.e. press Ctrl-Shift-R in Firefox, or Ctrl-F5 in IE) before it will work. If somebody wants to remove the solitary year links, feel free to use the tool. bobblewik 13:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed unsourced statements

Despite all my efforts, I can not find citations for:

• the quote: [He was acutely aware of the shakiness of the non-aggression pacts, remarking sarcastically:] "The question remains, which of the stools will we fall off first."
• that Polish Air Force squadron during World War II, the No. 305 "Greater Poland" Squadron was named after him
• Piłsudski was interested less in the trappings than in the reality of power, to be exercised for the security and welfare of his imperilled country. He made a point of drawing no financial profit from public office.

--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I reinserted the first quote (albeit in a different manner, slightly altered, but nonetheless to the same effect) with a citation. Aaрон Кинни (t) 10:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Audio license information

Please don't use straight links to any kind of media files, including audio. An easily accessible link to the license information has to be available, just like with pictures or photgraphs. I've fixed the problem and you're welcome to find other solutions to the linking problem as long as you don't use the previous solution.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jóżef Piłsudski category

I think that before the next FA vote starts we should create a Józef Piłsudksi category, with articles such as:

• The personal life of Józef Piłsudski (family, mistresses, religion etc.)
• Józef Piłsudski as a revolutionery
• Józef Piłsudski as a soldier (what kind of a commander was he?)
• Józef Piłsudski as a politic

and perhaps (keeping in mind the last FA vote)

• Eastern policies of Józef Piłsudski

Comments? Mieciu K 14:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Well, do we have enough content for a split? IIRC it was Halibutt who said there is room for expantion, and nobody complained the article is too long.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus  talk}  14:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
    • I don't like large articles but others might not share mine opinion. Mieciu K 18:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
      • I prefer long ones, if only because of my experience with the Polish-Soviet War, where main article has continued to receive relatively much attention after split, but the subarticles are virtually forgotten: therefore any material moved to subarticles is going to receive much less attention and be not updated/NPOVed/referenced or get duplicated in main.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus  talk}  03:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I like long articles too. But quality over quantity, and I think this article should stay in the current form. The article covers pretty much all of his life and it's not overly too long, but the footnotes really do make the article longer. It's the sources, not the actual content that makes it long. So in my opinion, it's fine as is. Aaрон Кинни (t)

[edit] Too many images

What's that? A photo story?--AchtungAchtung 23:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• A picture is worth a thousand words. Since when pictures are not welcome in wikipedia articles? Mieciu K 23:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

There a probably thousands of pictures of every politician. So why don't use thousands of pictures in an article...--AchtungAchtung 00:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• The correct place for a "thousand photos of a politician" is wikicommons not wikipedia where pictures are an addition to the text of the article. Do you have any specific requests which images do you think should be removed? I personally do not think that anything is wrong with the text to pictures ratio in this article.Mieciu K 10:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion ?

It is rather strange that this biography of a Main Polish politician of the XXth Century, on Wikipedia as on Polish official sites, doesn't mention any Family Religious background, i.e. catholic or protestant, except a certain hostility to compulsory attendance of Eastern Christian Orthodox Mass. I read in a French Biography, he was born Protestant. Is that true ? HUM MAG 193.252.105.81 19:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I will look for answers in his biography. There was something about diffrent religions being problematic to his early relations/marriages. IIRC from reading various sources, he was not very religious and cared little about differences in various branches of Christianity.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Prokonsul Piotrus, I found the answer in the article "Maria Piłsudska" in English Wikipedia. He converted to Protestantism in 1899 in order to marry Maria Piłsudska, a divorcee, because the Catholic Church forbade divorce. Then he was not born Protestant. As this fact is registred in the biography of his wife, I guess it is not necessary to mention it in this article. Thank you for your reply. HUM MAG 193.252.105.81 20:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I will see if I can find a reliable source on this and add this here, tnx for the tip about this article, I'll look at the sources used in it. If you plan on visiting Wiki and commenting more in the future, you may consider registering, it's easy and facilitates editing and communication.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Prokonsul Piotrus, my registration has been done previously on French Wiki, and yet now on English Wiki, to facilitate communication. Thank you.HUM MAG 20:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see you regged here, too. Unfortunatly in the Urbanowicz bio I am reading I can't find anything specific about the religion - but he may mention it later, he has the habit of digressing often.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)