Talk:Ivory-billed Woodpecker

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I believe I have one of these living around here. I live in Mississippi, surrounded by a national forest.

that link does not work. Kingturtle 07:20 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)

Which link? I added [1] and [2] and they both work? Dave.Dunford 15:46, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also adding [3] to the entry. --Mitsukai 17:07, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Forests of steak? --mhari

Uh, that vandalism lasted all of two minutes. -- Coneslayer 00:00, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

Contents 1 Coelecanth?! 2 arkansas claims 3 "Lord God bird" 4 Conservation 5 Confusing Sentence 6 Size comparison 7 "Lord God" bird 8 A skeptic questions the neutral point of view of this article 9 "Rediscovery" or "Possible Rediscovery"? 10 Not the second largest 11 GA nomination 12 More Pearl River video claims

[edit] Coelecanth?!

Don't know who wrote the blurb that's gone on the front page, but the Coelecanth was thought to have become extinct 65 million years ago ... nowhere near comparable to the Ivory-billed Woodpecker which was thought extinct for 51 years. Proto 13:14, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, it's not like we watched the Coelecanth go extinct. I mean, we knew almost exactly where the Ivory-billed Woodpecker ought to be, and couldn't find it for decades. -- Coneslayer 14:16, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

[edit] arkansas claims

the more i read the actual report claiming to have seen this bird in Arkansas, the more i doubt it as being a correct identification. Kingturtle 23:41, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Have you seen the video and the stills from it? jimfbleak 04:53, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I have seen the stills, but not the video in action. Kingturtle 09:30, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Lord God bird"

This species used to be known by the popular name of "Lord God bird", for the exclamation that someone would make upon seeing a bird of its striking appearance and great size.

The article on the Pileated Woodpecker offers a different explanation. A-giau 20:11, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Moreover, the 1991 edition of The Audubon Society Encyclopedia of North American Birds lists "Lord-God" as one of the Other names of the Pileated, but does not list it as one of the Other names of the Ivory-billed. Interestingly, the reference book *does* list "Log-god" as one of the Other names of the Ivory-billed. Kingturtle 20:18, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Conservation

I'd like to see some info on developments since the siting (as they happen). Are they going to try and save the habitat, in order to allow numbers of the woodpecker to rise? Will there be more sitings? Is there any danger of loads of people going looking for it, only to cause further damage to the area?

The land it was found on is already protected. Durova 00:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing Sentence

"One of the authors, who was kayaking in the Cache River National Wildlife Refuge, Monroe County, Arkansas, on February 11, 2004, reported the sighting of an unusually large red-crested woodpecker on a website."

That sentence implies the woodpecker was sighted on a website.

Does it not make more sense as follows:

"One of the authors, who was kayaking in the Cache River National Wildlife Refuge, Monroe County, Arkansas, on February 11, 2004, reported on a website the sighting of an unusually large red-crested woodpecker. Wayward 11:40, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

Changed as recommended (not by me). Dave.Dunford 11:03, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Size comparison

IBW may be closer in size to a Northern Pintail than to a crow but I've got three objections to this change: (1) most non-specialists will have no idea how big a Northern Pintail is (or even what a Northern Pintail is) (2) it would be better to link to a bird of a similar shape and posture (this conjures up images for me of a swimming duck rotated through 90° and nailed to a tree!) and (3) I don't think a link to Northern Pintail is warranted (except for people who might click it to find out how big it is!!). I'll try to think of a bird that's familiar, yet close in size and shape. Dave.Dunford 11:01, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Changed back to "crow". Wikipedia gives the length of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker as 48-53cm, the Northern Pintail as 65-75 (though the authoritative Collins Bird Guide quotes 79-87cm for males), the American Crow as 39-49 and the Carrion Crow as 48-52. Carrion Crow (which is what most Europeans would understand by "crow") is the best match, but American Crow (which I guess it what most Americans would take "crow" to mean) is near enough (and closer than Pintail). Dave.Dunford 11:16, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Not to mention that a Pintail doesn't sit in trees, so it isn't a useful comparison species. An I-b Wp is however larger than American Crow, so I'll suggest a change to "slightly larger than an American Crow" (with the latter linked) - MPF 19:26, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Given that the text says "about the size of..." (my italics) and the actual measurements of IBW are given, I think the sentence is OK as it is, and does its job in giving a reasonable impression for a layman of the size of the bird. But your suggestion is unobjectionable and I wouldn't revert if someone else feels it's better your way. Dave.Dunford 07:54, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Lord God" bird

Tim Gallagher (The Grail Bird, Houghton Mifflin 2005, p. 18) writes: "Pileated woodpeckers were often known colloquially as 'Good God' bids, because that's what people said when they came across one. The ivory-bills, in contrast, were called 'Lord God' birds, because people who saw one were likely to exclaim, "Lord God, what a bird!" - jamesrsheehan

That sounds like a pretty dubious claim. Are you sure he's not trying to be humorous? I don't see any reason why people would consistantly exclaim "Good God" when looking at one bird and "Lord God" when looking at the other one. I would contend that most people who actually see an Ivory-billed Woodpecker would probably exclaim "Holy shit!" so maybe it should be called the Holy Shit Bird :) FWIW, there is a more plausable etymological explaination in the Pileated Woodpecker article, although no source for it. Kaldari 19:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Read the book and decide for yourself whether Gallagher is "trying to be humorous." The context was that he was repeating folklore that made the point that though people are (or were) impressed when they see (or saw) a pileated, they were much more impressed when they saw an ivory-billed. I think referring to the pileated as a "Lord God bird" is an error. Jamesrsheehan 21:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the claim could be reinsterted, but with the cavaet "According to birdwatching folklore..." or "According to writer Tim Gallagher...". I've also heard "Lord God Bird" attributed to Theodore Roosevelt, BTW. Kaldari 00:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Gallagher's assignment of folk names does not agree with other, older, sources that I can find. (This has been covered, partly, in another thread above, but it bears repeating.) The most exhaustive, readily accessible source of folk names for North American birds is John K. Terres's Audubon Society Encyclopedia of North American Birds (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1980). Terres (p. 1021) gives the following folk names for the Ivory-bill: Caip, Indian hen, ivory-bill, kate, kent (from call notes), king of the woodpeckers, logcock, log-god, southern giant woodpecker, white-billed woodpecker, woodchuck, woodcock. You will note that Lord God Bird is not actually on the list, though the closely related names logcock and log-god are--see notes on etymology below. James Tanner, in The Ivory-billed Woodpecker (New York: National Audubon Society, 1942) quotes a similar list collected by W.L. McAtee (unreferenced there), including Log-god and variants of Large Log-cock. (This to differentiate from the Pileated, the small log-cock?) T. Gilbert Pearson, in Birds of North America (New York: The University Society, 1917, reprinted 1936), gives just the folk names Woodcock, Logcock, Woodchuck, and Ivory-bill for the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Note that the name Lord God Bird does not itself appear on three extensive lists of folk names for the Ivory-bill. However, the related name logcock does appear on some lists.

Terres (p. 1024) gives the following list of folk names for the Pileated Woodpecker: Black woodpecker, carpenter bird, cock-of-the-woods, good-god, great black woodpecker, Indian hen, logcock, log-guard, Lord-God, woodchuck, woodcock, wood kate'. T. Gilbert Pearson, in Birds of North America (New York: The University Society, 1917, reprinted 1936), gives a similar list of folk names for the Pileated, including Lord God Woodpecker. This on-line reference, quoting from from North American Bird Folknames and Names by James K. Sayre (1996), gives and exhaustive list of folk names for the Pileated, including Good God Woodpecker, ..., Logcock, Log-cock Woodchuck, Log-god, Lord God Woodpecker,...

Audubon, in the text from the Octavo edition of Birds of America (1840-1844), quoted folk names for the Pileated as woodcock and Logcock, see this site.

The application of the folk name Lord-God for the Pileated Woodpecker is also attested in popular literature predating Gallagher's work. See, for instance, this Birdchat message from the year 2000 discussing the use of that name for the Pileated in a novel about coastal Georgia, Eugenia Price's Where Shadows Go (1994). The quote from the frontspiece of the book is The Lord God Bird Loves St. Simons, and it is accompanied by a drawing of a Pileated Woodpecker. The author of the Birdchat message states that the name was widely used for the Pileated Woodpecker throughout the Southeastern United States.

A man who grew up in Louisiana during the 1950's wrote a letter to Discover Magazine in 2005 stating that Lord God Bird was a folk name applied to the Pileated Woodpecker in Louisiana in his youth. He also believes that name to be a corruption of logcock.

It is thought that the Lord-God names are corruptions of logcock--both the Pileated and the Ivorybill are, or were, sometimes found feeding on downed logs. (I have seen Pileateds do this.) An on-line reference to the etymology of Lord God is here, apparently, though the full text is not available on-line. The reference is: W. L. McAtee, Folk Etymology in North American Bird Names. American Speech, Vol. 26, No. 2 (May, 1951), pp. 90-95. This apparently gives the derivation of lord god from logcock, or log guard for the Pileated by folk etymology. (Note the appearance on name lists of different stages of the transformation: logcock--> log guard--> log god--> Lord God.)

In summary: the folk name Lord God Bird for the Pileated Woodpecker is attested from several sources in the present day, and dating back at least to the beginning of the 20th century. The name is apparently derived by folk etymology from logcock, referring to the habits of this bird in feeding on downed logs. The name logcock for the Pileated goes back to Audubon's time, the early 19th century. The folk name Lord-God Bird does not show up on three lists of folk names for the Ivory-billed Woodpecker that I can find, though the related name logcock does. I can find no support for Tim Gallagher's assertion in The Grail Bird (2005) that the folk name Lord-God Bird referred consistently to the Ivory-billed Woodpecker and the name Good God Bird to the Pileated Woodpecker. The application of Lord-God Bird to the Pileated Woodpecker is, if anything, more common than its application to the Ivory-billed. I feel the statement needs to be modified in the article. I'll try to write a concise section on the folk and scientific names, as I think I've done my homework.--Cotinis 12:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A skeptic questions the neutral point of view of this article

Isn't one of Wikipedia's tenets neutral point of view? I think that this article deviates strongly from that principle. In the first sentence of the article, the bird is described as "extremely rare." I believe that "likely extinct" would better describe scientific opinion. Species aren't deemed "extinct" lightly, and when they are, it is done by overwhelming consensus. I would argue then, that the burden of proof for "rediscovery" is upon those arguing for it. And there is no consensus that they have made their case. The video is blurry at best.

My criticism is not restricted to the first sentence, but is pervasive throughout the article. The species is consistently referred to in the present tense - are they really still "feeding" on beetle larvae and "laying" clutches of eggs (???) - and controversy over continued existence is merely mentioned at the end of the article in a paragraph.

Granted, as a conservation ecologist, I, too, am optimistic for the future of this species. But this article doesn't appear to address the controversy or give much attention to scientifically valid skepticism.Pstevendactylus 01:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by 'optimistic,' Pstevendactylus. I would much love for the species to exist, but the evidence is being questioned pretty hard now. I changed the first paragraph consistent with your very valid concerns. 80.255.59.139[i.e., Mare Nostrum] 07:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

problem? someone is going to come along and say the exact oposite of what you say, and then eventually every one is going to forget that, and then someone is going to say what you say again... Jedi of redwall 20:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't that's applicable here, Jedi of redwall. We now have a balanced depiction of the debate, I think, which we can't get on either side of or we risk what you say. Mare Nostrum 20:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I feel this statement added 11 May 2006 is also violating the NPOV:

The failure of the expedition may have been due to the fact that the searchers were on foot. A solo searcher moving quietly in a kayak obtained video of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker in the Pearl in February 2006 [4].

The video is even more blurry than the famous (or infamous) Luneau video published in Science, in spring 2005. The inclusion of the statement that the video shows an Ivory-bill is a violation of NPOV. See discussion of current searches on the Pearl River, for instance, at Cyberthrush's blog--entry for Sunday, April 30, 2006, More Commentary From J. Jackson , and discussion here. --Cotinis 09:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of this sentence and reference, and think at present the article is resonably balanced between the reports of rediscovery and skepticism. --Ithacagorges 20:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Statement that "The failure of the expedition may have been due to the fact that the searchers were on foot", etc., and the claimed video has been restored. What do others think? It seems silly to go back and forth, perhaps some compromise language can be reached. I'll try to insert something to that effect in the article, I suppose, but I feel this sort of thing belongs in the discussion until there is some factual resolution. --Cotinis 17:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

For some perspective, the Ivory-Bill site run by Cornell and the Nature Conservancy, the team who has written the scientific articles giving evidence for its rediscovery, does not seem to mention the new Pearl video (or any new work in LA at all.) I have not seen any mention in any other scientific literature either or any commentary by major ornithologists supporting the find. Until the new video receives similar attention, I would lump it with the dozens or hundreds of reported but unconfirmed and unvalidated sightings throughout the years, and not worthy of specific mention in the article.

Possibly include something like this which I think is a more neutral summary of things: "More recently, searchers for the Ivory-bill have turned most of their attention away from the Pearl River region and Louisiana in general, although one uncornfirmed sighting was reported in 2006." --Ithacagorges 21:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Rediscovery" or "Possible Rediscovery"?

Given that the rediscovery is still controversial, should we change the title of the "rediscovery" section to "possible rediscovery" or something similar? --Ithacagorges 21:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was about to make the same suggestion. --Cotinis 13:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not the second largest

Actually, there are at least two larger woodpecker species, the largest, of course, being the Imperial Woodpecker; the second largest is the Great Slaty Woodpecker (Mulleripicus pulverulentus). This article suggest that the Ivory-billed may rank as low as the 5th, but it doesn't mention the candidates for the 3rd and 4th places.

[edit] GA nomination

This nomination is on hold for 7 days. These external jump links should turned into cite php footnotes. It is a nice article, though. Rlevse 17:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm in the process of fixing these. SP-KP 18:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Now only fix the two DOI refs and it should be good to go. Rlevse 19:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, Done - I think - check these last two please, they proved tricky! SP-KP 22:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice job, if this were part of a wikiproject, I'd make it A-class. Rlevse 23:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Are there any pictures available for The Druridge Bay curlew? The curlew article isn't in as nice a shape as the woodpecker one. You may want to spruce it up before someone grades it. Rlevse 23:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Pearl River video claims

I reverted a series of edits, all apparently by the same anonymous user (132.250.146.50), and done in a quick series, describing claims of a sighting on the Pearl River in February, 2006. The last edit was:

Since 2002, most of the attention in the search for the Ivory-billed Woodpecker has turned away from the Pearl River region, although unconfirmed sightings were reported there in February 2006. A video taken at the Pearl River in February 2006 seems to show one ivory-billed Woodpecker climbing a branch, taking a short flight to another branch and then flying away. Short takes from this video can be seen here.

This issue has been discussed under A skeptic questions... (above), and it seemed to have been resolved in a neutral fashion. I do not feel that the purported February 2006 sightings rise to level of encyclopedic knowledge, but that's just my opinion. Perhaps this should be discussed here, since this seems to be an issue coming up over and over.--Cotinis 23:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, a bit of an edit war. I restored the heading to "Possible rediscovery" and restored some discussion of the controversy, which seems to be quite legitimate, since the dispute over the Arakansas sightings is not in dispute. Certainly some language could be inserted regarding the claimed 2006 Pearl River sightings that mentions them, but is neutral. Since it is possibly the author of that web site inserting the language, it seems to be somewhat of a violation of NPOV and verifiability, but I'm fairly new to this. (Is including a link to fishcrow.com appropriate, or not?) The controversy over the Arkansas sightings is handled in a very neutral fashion in the current edit, and I don't think it needs more push one way or the other. Probably sticking to print sources as opposed to blog links is a good idea. Opinions anyone?

Now, calling Jackson's article in The Auk an editorial versus an "article" is possibly a good idea--though I don't think it was called such in the journal. I'm trying to keep this balanced.--Cotinis 19:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Really trying to avoid an edit war, I suggest just having a link to the clips without commentary. Note that there is controversy about those video clips, as there is about the Luneau video. If the clip is going to be mentioned here in detail, NPOV would seem to require that other interpretations be detailed as well. See, for instance, Birdchat posting by Mike Collins Thu, 11 May 2006 describing the clips, and a skeptical, but respectful, response by another Birdchat participant on 12 May 2006. We have to watch out here for NPOV and also for "no original research", i.e., verifiability.

I did change the reference to Jackson's article to "commentary" instead of "paper". That seems to be more accurate, as "paper" might imply a research article, which that was not. --Cotinis 20:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)