Talk:Isabeau of Bavaria

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[edit] Affair

Altering text on the relationship with the duke of Orleans for NPOV. Durova 22:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] From Maria of Hungary

I cannot understand why someone doubts Isabella's descent from Arpads. It is true enough and genealogies all show the same, without any contention. See for example [1] and other pages there. Maria bore Eleanor of Anjou-Sicily who bore Isabella/Elisabeth of Aragon-Sicily who bore Stephen III of Bavaria who sired this Isabella, who was baptized as her Sicilian grandmother's namesake. Maed 03:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't doubt her descent from the Arpads, I doubt the detail which appears here concerning Elizabeth, Maria Arpad of Hungary's mother, and not at the page on Maria herself. If it is verifiable, it should appear there; if it isn't, it shouldn't appear here. The website mentioned says Maria's Cuman grandfather was called Zayhan. See what I mean ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah. be kindly very specific in the future when asking for citations. The facts are verifiable enough: Maria's mother was called Elisabeth when queen (no idea whether she had an earlier Cuman first name, it is possible, though perhaps not important here). That Elisabeth was daughter of a Cuman chieftain, who and whose tribe were driven to Hungary due to incursion of Mongols to wgat is now Ukraine. The chief's Cuman name is rendered variably: Kuten, Kuthen, Zayhan, etc. Elements are same: K sometimes close to Z, u/(a)y, th/t/h, e/a, ends always with -n. Probably you understand some things about rendition of medieval odder names, from immigrant languages, when even languages through which renditions take place, evolve in pronunciation (k becomes s or somesuch - as in Latin). The Cuman chief, though sort of exle, was important enough in feudal Hungary that the then king allied with him (and several loyal magnates) in pursuits to keep other, restless, Hungarian magnates in some order. Alliance was sealed through marriage of their two children. Cumans had a specific culture compared to Hungarians: some (possibly biased) sources accuse them of licentiouness and abetting several vices. How surprising. How nationalistic and xenophobous. Among native Hungarians, resentment was present, and both Elisabeth's husband and son later as kings faced accusations based on their "Cuman" habits and even paganism. The son, Ladislas IV, was nicknamed as "the Cuman", and pope declared a war/crusade against him sometime in 1280's, using alleged pagan habits as excuse. Cuman tribe is sort of Kipchak people. The page about Maria's family: [[2]]. I have not very much against, if you wish to burden this page with different renditions of the chief's name, though I would rather suggst that they are presented in his own page or at least nearer there, and only one variant used in this article. Maed 22:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)