Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo
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[edit] Protocol: Read this first!
Welcome to Wikipedia's Iglesia ni Cristo article talk page. This article is about a controversial subject and feelings often run high around it. Because of this, please take particular care to avoid personal attack or personal criticism here. If you want to say anything about an editor please do it at that editor's talk page.
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[edit] Resources
- /summary - This is a barebones summary for use in initiating articles in other languages. Please do not expand. Please feel free to add only bare essential information.
- /Workshop - This is where substantial edits are being made before being moved to the main article.
[edit] Sources
Sources are requested for the following so that the Disputed flag can be removed:
- Church structure—essentially the roles within its organisation.
- Church beliefs and practices.
Each doctrine is written in a book that is published by the INC but is not available to all members of the church. Is there a publicly available source? —Theo (Talk) 17:20, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
- Not to my knowledge. They might be covered in a Pasugo article though, I'm not sure.--Onlytofind 01:13, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
- I think that book we're talking about is the one which is written by Manalo, which is now referenced on the main page. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 22:57, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
Is Manalo, Erano G. Fundamental Beliefs of the Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) (Manila: Iglesia ni Cristo, 1989) the same as Introducing the Iglesia ni Cristo Booklet, 1989, pp.1-16? Both are listed as references.
- Not that I know of, the FBINC book by Manalo is a full sized 200 or so page book. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 01:10, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
- Does anyone know how I can get hold of copies of either/both? I cannot find them in the UK. —Theo (Talk) 09:25, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
- As I mentioned earlier to the thread, the book is only available to high members of the church. The booklet could probably be found lying around an INC member's house. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 03:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
- The book is only given to ministers and ministerial studentsGuava wrench 05:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- As I mentioned earlier to the thread, the book is only available to high members of the church. The booklet could probably be found lying around an INC member's house. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 03:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
- Does anyone know how I can get hold of copies of either/both? I cannot find them in the UK. —Theo (Talk) 09:25, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
- Missionary activities
- The four internal organizations.
- The Hierarchy
[edit] GA passed
Issues to work on for the progression :
- The article needs more information on the belief of the church.
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- Being worked on at /Workshop; slowly however.
- The article needs to distinguish between the religion mentioned and the others.
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- That'll probably be covered in beliefs, if things go well.
- It also needs to clearly define why it is not a cult and a religion.
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- In what way? Stating that INC doesn't follow the actions of most dangerous cults?
- It needs more citations (at least for the citation needed tag).
- It is in need of more criticism outside of the Philippines.
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- Most of its notoriety is within the Filipino and Evangelical communities, so it is difficult to find sources outside the Philipines, although they have locales in many places of the world.
- Are there people in this religion outside of the Philippines? other that what is mentioned in Missionary activities.
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- Yes, there is. The adherants site I linked gives a chart of the INC population worldwide.
- In the Criticism section it talks about the Pope ... if the pope is part of the hierarchy of the church it should be mentioned. If not, why such a claim is made in the criticisms section. Does the pope endorse such a religion?
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- I'm not sure why its there. Pope is not endorsed or associated with INC.
- If this sentence Macapagal-Arroyo's father, Diosdado Macapagal, due to his religious and political views, refused INC's preferred. is really necessary it should be expanded into a paragraph or added to some other, if not ... it should be deleted. Lincher 18:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
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- The point made was that not all candidates embrace INC's support, that they feel they can do their campaign on their own AFAIK. I've added some sentences to it to make it more clear. LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 20:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Iglesia ni Cristo removed from Wikipedia:Good articles
was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because edit war and article not broad in coverage
- There actually is no edit war, reasonable users from both a supportive and critical viewpoint of INC agree this article presents all sides fairly and have worked together to make it a good article, something which I am very proud of. Unfortunately, a banned editor has come back using anonymous proxies, in disregard for the rules of Wikipedia and in disregard for the work put up by many of us in the past. I humbly request support for semi-protection once again. --Ironbrew 00:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree on the reasons for delisting this as a good article. Although the article is not fully covered, GA doesn't require it to be so. The edit wars are from an editor who is banned from editing the article per ArbCom decision. Aside from beliefs, the article suitably covers critisism and origin nicely. I will fork this conversation into an official request to review the delisting in hopes for it to be relisted. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 08:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] INC statistics site
The Adherent Statistics and Religious Geography Citation archive has a wealth of information about INC's population. Anybody care to take a look and see what we can use from it? --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 18:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The state of this article.
Emico's return under User:IndependentMind and his classic anonymous proxy edits must be deleted. The unsourced criticism about the Bereans and other INC critics cannot stay as it is basically POV. The only things we can post in response are any official responses from the INC themselves. I will continue to revert any "contributions" made by Emico to this, or any other Iglesia ni Cristo related article until his ban is ended by ArbCom. --Ironbrew 21:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've read further into Bauder's statement about enforcing bans, and he said that any block imposed on Emico's accounts that's reported at the arbcom's page will cause the timer on his ban to be reset. The creation of IndependentMind just caused him to be banned from INC articles until July 20, 2007. He needs to work positively with us if he ever wants to edit these articles again, and I hope he does. But if he feels he needs to disrupt Wikipedia to get his way, he'll only be treated as a vandal. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 22:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] INC as a landmark?
Here's the page Emico was probably trying to refer to: [1]. Unfortunately, all the reviews are biased in either direction, with members fawning over the church and critics not liking it. This is definitely not an encyclopedic reference. All that I could say from my personal experiences is that INC chapels are found in most areas of the Philippines, and are somewhat notable in that fashion, but I would not call them tourist landmarks. Perhaps Central, but not every chapel. It's just like the Mormons in Utah, many people LDS and non-LDS visit their head tabernacle, but I don't think anyone would call regular Mormon chapels tourist landmarks.--Ironbrew 21:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think he meant the central temple, as it is the most photographed. Speaking of Central, can we expand that section? --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 22:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC) (updated 19:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC))
[edit] GA
The GA was given back as the disputing wasn't of importance as discussed on the Good articles' disputes page. Lincher 02:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "indoctrinee"?
In the section on membership, it states that "the person is given the status of indoctrinee (or Bible Student, as they are called within the Iglesia ni Cristo)". So why not just use the term "Bible Students" if that is the term used? It seems that the statement as it stands is not acurate, since "indoctrinee" is not the status given by the church itself; and it sounds like a sly attempt to use a mildly pejorative word. I believe the first instance should be replaced with "...status of Bible Students, as they are called...." and afterwards should be changed to "students."
Full disclosure: I am not affiliated with the INC in any way at all, and think it is rather silly. But I think this one word in the article is even more silly.
If there is a reason for its use, I would like to learn about it.
I am going to make the change. I am trying to learn to "be bold," since my natural tendency is not to be. --Sean Lotz 06:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- I think the terms are used interchangably (sp). Some locales they're called "indoctornees", and others they're called "students". But if there's no objections, I'm okay with the change. --LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 06:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Thank you, LBMixPro, for the explanation. In my very limited knowledge, I had heard only "students." If the original had included "Both terms are used by the church," I would have felt easier with it. --Sean Lotz 07:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Proposed INC WikiProject
As coverage of INC at Wikipedia continues to grow, and the need to make sure related articles are held at a high standard of Wikipedia article quality, I've proposed a new WikiProject dedicated to INC. If you're interested, go to Wikipedia:WikiProject/List_of_proposed_projects#WikiProject_Iglesia_ni_Cristo and sign your name. A temporary example of what the project page will look like is at my userspace. --LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 09:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Worldview?
I know there have been some disputes about INC congregations and members, primarily in Calfornia, being involved in U.S. politics, but predominately this group has a membership of Filipinos and overseas Filipinos. Therefore, its predominant political influence is in the Philippines, and it makes sense that that section would demonstrate this. I don't know as this merits the "worldview" tag. I have a question that may demonstrate my partial ignorance of this topic, but is it commonplace for Filipinos living overseas to become citizens of other countries they may be working in, other than the U.S.? I know that there are many Filipino-Americans, which stems from the former colonial/Commonwealth status, and the large number of former Filipino employeers of the US Federal Government and their families that I understand are (rightly, IMO) entitled to special consideration toward US naturalization, but are there really large numbers of Filipinos who become citizens, and hence potentially politically involved in the politics of the other countries to which they have moved? (I know that there are tens of thousands of non-Filipino INC members, but I also know that within the group they are a vast minority and would not, in and of themselves, account for much political clout either as part of the group or as individuals.)Rlquall 13:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I can find no evidence of allegations of undue political influence outside the Phillipines. Can you cite sources for these disputes? To answer your citizenship question: there is a signficant number of Australian citizens of Filipino birth. —Theo (Talk) 18:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Theo, I'm glad to see you back here - since it's been a while. If you would look back to around last year, there is a post where me and Bro. Glenn Cessor do agree that the Iglesia ni Cristo would endorse candidates in the past, but we do not have consensus as to when it stopped. Glenn recalls the 1996 Presidential election being the last election where the INC endorsed a candidate, while I do remember the INC endorsing Gray Davis for Governor when I lived in California.--Ironbrew 01:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Missionary Activities
I would like to propose a change to the following line:
In North America, a television program called The Message is produced by Bro. Edward Maranan on behalf of the Iglesia ni Cristo in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is currently aired in the United States and Canada and some parts of Europe.
Bro. Edward Maranan does not produce The Message, but is a contributing panelist on the program.
So it should state: In North America, a television program called The Message is produced in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is currently aired in the United States and Canada and some parts of Europe. The 30-minute program is hosted by different INC ministers (alternating each show) who share the main beliefs of the Iglesia ni Cristo with a television audience.
Thanks--
- This seems to be a resonable change so I have implemented it. —Theo (Talk) 11:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello Again --
Thanks for changing it, but I think we have a repeated line.
In North America, a television program called The Message is produced in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is currently aired in the United States and Canada and some parts of Europe. Each 30-minute program is hosted by one of a panel of INC ministers, who share the main beliefs of the Iglesia ni Cristo with a television audience. [20] Worldwide, the INC maintain an hour long time slot on The Filipino Channel and airs two among many of its programs including the INC Chronicles and Ang Tamang Daan. [21].
In North America, a television program called The Message is produced in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is currently aired in the United States and Canada and some parts of Europe. The 30-minute program is hosted by different INC ministers (alternating each show) who share the main beliefs of the Iglesia ni Cristo with a television audience.
- Thank you for pointing it out. I taken care of it. --LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 06:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
GEM-TV also has a website which is located at www.gem-tv.net. Has programming schedule as well as descriptions of the various television shows which are produced by the iglesia ni cristo.71.141.99.6 23:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)butchog
[edit] Pls. add this site under PRO
http://www.network54.com/Forum/281698/
- It's been agreed on a while ago that forums shouldn't be linked from the article. --LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 09:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] External Links
The television program the message also promotes an email address which is: writethemessage@iglesianicristo.org please include in addition to the address of the God's Message magazine.
[edit] Attention all Emico Sleeper accounts!
- Forked from User talk:Emico
Thanks for trying to contribute to Wikipedia, I'm letting the latest edit pass for the sake of improving the encyclopedia. This whole thing has gone on long enough, and frankly it is getting nowhere. There are ways to find out whether or not a sockpuppet is created or not. If you are willing to edit Wikipedia according to policy, I can vouch to have your arbcom ban waived and for you to be put under mentorship by another admin. I know you have the decency and intellegence to make the right choice. You've shown in the past that you are able to cooperate.
Wikipedia is and has always been a secular encyclopedia, open to all editors and viewpoints who are willing to work within the Wikimedia Foundation's goal. The article need expansion, and I'm not capable to edit as much as I am able to. Other members of INC (current and former) do have the information and ability to. However, if you return my favor by causing trouble around the encyclopedia, I will push a community ban against you. Please make the right choice. It's up to you. --LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 00:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
