Talk:If and only if

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1 Initial Discussion
2 Coinage of "iff" by Kelley / Halmos
3 Possibly useful references
4 "Precisely if"
5 Orr?
6 Organization
7 "P iff Q" not equal to "P is necessary and sufficient for Q"
8 Why is this page iff?
9 ONLY IF instead of IFF, couldn't it be possible ?
10 Merge
11 How it works in logic
12 suggested addition

[edit] Initial Discussion

Someone should add the triple bar to the standard symbols for "iff." But I don't know how to do so.

Mary will eat pudding if it is custard.

Does this sentance need wikilinks really? Does pudding and Custard have anything at all to do with this article? I think not personally. -- 82.3.32.75 13:32, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The equivalent of 'P is necessary and sufficient for Q' would be 'Q iff P' (not 'P iff Q') would it not? I've also wikilinked necessary and sufficient. - Ledge 11:18, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

well... since it's symmetric, it doesn't really matter that much does it? -- Tarquin 11:38, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Gosh, so it is. How have I lived so long without realising that?

it should be symmetric, but the example below, which should show the difference between the equivalence and iff is not symmetric - actually the second part of the sentence (it's custart) is not even a sentence! This example is basicly wrong and it seems that the discusion of the mentioned difference is some (maybe polemic) lingual issue, but no logical nor mathematical, which (in this case) is the same. (Jester (not yet a user) 2:50, 9 Sep 2004)

"actually the second part of the sentence (it's custart) is not even a sentence!" It's == It is == subject(it) verb(is). Custard becomes a descriptive. Just thought I'd mention that.

Ark: Yes, a priest is a bachelor, at least as I understand the term. The Oxford English Dictionary says only that the man must be of marriageable age, which is arguably included in the term "man". Every American dictionary that I can find on the Net gives our original definition, possibly adding that age is irrelevant. If you have support for your definition, then I'd like to hear it; otherwise, I suggest returning the definition to what it was. OTOH, if controversy remains, we might look for a different definition to use. — Toby Bartels, Tuesday, June 18, 2002

The priest-bachelor statement is is a prime example of Imprecise language... ;-) Tarquin, Tuesday, June 18, 2002

well, to my naive surprise, this is the necessary and sufficient article. But it doesn't go into the terms necessary and sufficient...or am I missing something? Kingturtle 02:35 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure. This is the iff article. It isn't clear it should go into the terms necessary and sufficient. But at the very least, necessary and sufficient are normally used in the sense of necessary condition and sufficient condition--I take it that's what you want. But the conjunction of those two is logical equivalence, which is not the same as iff (as explained in the article).

There was some confusing equivocation between use and mention here--between the biconditional, which is a connective and logical equivalence, which is a relation. I tried to clear it up, but it's a knotty topic.

I'm not sure the current version doesn't "clear it up" too much in the opposite direction. There is a distinction sometimes, but often there is not in fact a distinction, and many formal logics use a single symbol to indicate both, not the two separate symbols (single- and double-barred <->) used in this article. Delirium 18:55 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

currently, Necessary and sufficient redirects to Iff. Kingturtle 02:46 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

I realized that, a bit later. I've written a brief article on it and eliminated the redirection. hope its helpful

I'm not sure I like the "iff is not equivalence" example:

Mary will eat pudding today if and only if it's custard.

I think this actually is a case of equivalence, that is being muddled by the phrasing. What we're saying is "(Mary will eat pudding today) iff (The pudding today is a custard)". Thus the logical statements "Mary will eat pudding today" and "The pudding today is a custard" are in fact equivalent: they have identical truth tables. So I still don't see the discrepancy. --Delirium 22:58 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think you're right. It's bringing the meaning of the words into the matter, which is wrong -- Tarquin 10:19 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Regarding "if/iff" convention for defs:

I've reinserted the comment about "if" being used conventionally in math defs. I'm sorry, I've read a lot of math books, and this is a common convention. Many definitions use the terminology "if", in the sense of "If P(X), then X is called blah" or "X is said to be blah if P(X)", yet not every definition uses "iff", and all definitions are intended to be "iff", because that's what definitions are. (To counter your remark, definitions are not intended to assert equivalencies; an equivalence is usually meant to indicate a statement saying two things imply each other that has to be PROVED...definitions aren't proved, they're declared, so it doesn't make sense to say e.g. "'R is an integral domain' is equivalent to 'R is a commutative ring with identity'" because these statements aren't "equivalent" in the ordinary sense of the term, one does not PROVE they're equivalent, that simply IS the definition of an integral domain. Here are several cases where the "if" convention is used in the wikipedia itself...

"A prime p is called primorial or prime-factorial if it has the form p = Π(n) ± 1 for some number n" (from prime number)

"If a divides b and b divides a, then we say a and b are associated elements. a and b are associated if and only if there exists a unit u such that au = b." (from integral domain...notice, the first use of the word is in the sense of a definition, hence only "if" is used (although "iff" would be correct as well), but the second IS an actual theorem (result) because the equivalent condition requires proof. So, for the second statement, the meaning would change if "iff" were replaced by "if", although for the first statement it doesn't matter.

"In complex analysis, a function is called entire if it is defined on the whole complex plane and is holomorphic everywhere" (from entire function).

The list could go on. Revolver

Im confused by the

A person is a bachelor iff that person is an unmarried but marriagable man.

example -- there could be unmarried but marriagable men (not only the priests mentioned above), for example widowers. I wouldn't think they are bachelors (are they?). If not, the (P iff Q) Q->P direction isn't true. And what about bachelor being also a term for an university diploma? Is "Tom did his B.A. well and is now a Bachelor" a correct English sentence? And what about a marriaged Tom that is a Bachelor in this sense? Would he destroy the iff above? -- till we *) 00:31, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What is the pronounciation of the "iff"? Do I say "if" or "if and only if"?

I'd read "if and only if". I'm sure that's what my maths lecturers used to read, too. I guess you could say "eye eff eff". Saying "if" would be wrong. It's just a written shorthand, like using the three dots to mean therefore - you wouldn't read that as "dot dot dot". --JimmyTheWig 12:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coinage of "iff" by Kelley / Halmos

The article says:

The abbreviation appeared in print for the first time in John Kelley's 1955 book General Topology.

However, the preface of the 1955 edition of General Topology says

In some cases where mathematical content requires "if and only if" and euphony demands something less I use Halmos' "iff".

which suggests that he did get it from Halmos. Now Kelley did know Halmost personally so it's possible that this was the first appearance of "iff" in print. But it seems more likely that Kelley saw it in some paper of Halmos'. I can't think of any way to pursue this any further, other than to ask Halmos. (Kelley died in 1999.) Does anyone have any other suggestions? -- Dominus 05:39, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly useful references

[edit] "Precisely if"

Does the phrase "precisely if" mean the same thing as iff? If so, it could be added to the article. Wmahan . 17:56, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)

Yes; that is conventional usage among mathematicians (I don't know about philosophical logicians, though). Michael Hardy 20:55, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. It appears to be used in logic as well (e.g. [3]), so I'll add it to the article. Wmahan . 06:34, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)

I think the phrase "exactly when" is common also. -- Dominus 02:59, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Orr?

I don't know about you, but I see "orr" and think of an imperative-logic "p' := q or r". Does anybody use "orr" for the exclusive disjunction rather than "xor"? --Damian Yerrick 08:23, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I use whichever one. But I have to use "xor" in Matlab cause that is what it requires in its syntax. --GoOdCoNtEnT 01:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organization

I wrote in Talk:Mathematical jargon, in part:

Iff has two uses, imho. One is used in logic (and related fields, I suppose) to mean a binary function from a theory to a truth-value set

iff : Th x Th → {T,F}

and the other is used in arguments in any math paper or lecture. The meanings are the same, I think, but the uses are different. I think that Iff should be edited to reflect these two uses; right now it blends them. —msh210 17:03, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I still think so; what do you all think? —msh210 19:40, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Done. —msh210 18:57, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "P iff Q" not equal to "P is necessary and sufficient for Q"

In my opinion, there is a little mistake in this article... I think it should be vice versa: "P iff Q" means "Q is neseccary and sufficient for P" instead of "P is necessary and sufficient for Q" isn't it?

Both are equally correct. -- Dominus 01:27, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, although the suggested change does match up a little better with colloquial English usage ("P if Q" means "Q is sufficient for P", and "P only if Q" means "Q is necessary for P", so "P iff Q" means "Q is necessary and sufficient for P"). --Delirium 03:03, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

"P if Q" also means that P is necessary for Q, and "P only if Q" means that P is sufficient for Q. Thus, "P iff Q" means "P is necessary and sufficient for Q". I repeat, both are equally correct. -- Dominus 12:57, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why is this page iff?

Wikipedia naming conventions states that the expanded form should be preferred unless a term is almost exclusively used as it's shorterned form (aka Scuba or Laser). So why is this page on Iff? — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 21:48, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ONLY IF instead of IFF, couldn't it be possible ?

IMHO, "ONLY IF" covers "IF", and "SUFFICIENT" includes "NECESSARY". Why doesn't one use "ONLY IF" instead of "IF AND ONLY IF", "SUFFICIENT" in the place of "NECESSARY AND SUFFICIENT" ? Seforadev 19:07, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Convention: argue with the academics and scholars out there. I'm pretty sure there's a reason, but I don't really know (I just know that they usually use if and only if in texts). — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 02:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Sb said me the probable reason for those redundance was one needs REPETITION to emphasize the TWO clauses of the logical equivalence. Some other ones said NECESSARY CONDITION is for the 1st sense (=>), and SUFFICIENT CONDITION is for the 2nd (<=). I don't understand.Seforadev 02:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone still cares, but "only if"/"sufficient" are generally considered different from "iff"/"necessary and sufficient." For example, for natural numbers n and m, n divides m only if m is greater than n. However, the converse is not always true. n divides m is sufficent to show that m is greater than n, but it is not a necessary condition. Generally "P only if Q" can be stated "Q is a necessary condition of P" or "P => Q." "P if Q" can be stated "If P then Q," "Q is a sufficient condition for P," or "Q => P." Josh 19:02, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it derives somehow from the formal English language. It is an agreed upon term among mathematicians and using "only if" would just cause confusion. --GoOdCoNtEnT 01:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely! After some 20 years of pondering over this question, I suspect that mathematicians have only two (2) motives to use iff instead of only if. First, it is more chic to use an exotic expression; and second, they tend to regard an iff condition as having a mandatory character, for example: "an egg will get hard boiled iff it is cooked in boiling water for 5 or more minutes", meaning that it is mandatory to boil the egg for 5 or more minutes. This quality however, is entirely fictitious, as it is equivalent to say that an egg will get hard boiled only if it is cooked in boiling water for 5 or more minutes. Gosh, I hardly understand my own argument! Does someone else? --AVM 20:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely — wrong! "Iff" means "if and only if", not "only if". — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

A only if B means only that A implies B. A if and only if B means that A implies B and B implies A. This is why there is a difference. "If and only if" applies only to those cases of A only if B where also B only if A. Example: a bird is a raven only if its feathers are black, but this does not exclude the possibilty of other birds with black feathers. Whereas, if a bird is a raven if its feathers are black means that any bird with black feathers is necessarily a raven. The combination of both, if and only if, would mean that every bird with black feathers is a raven, and that a bird is a raven only if its feathers are black. - Rainwarrior 07:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Seems reasonable. - Ekevu (talk) 17:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
- Possible problem is that the EQV redirect fits only Logical biconditional, and not if and only if Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Object. I think the use of iff is frequent enough across the Wikipedia that, without redirects being able to redirect to anchors (eg to Logical biconditional#If and only if), that it would be confusing for many readers. This article is long enough to support itself on its own; I think a merge is unnecessary. — OwenBlacker 17:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Oppose merge. No need; above reasons. — goethean ॐ 17:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Oppose merge. There is a distinction between the logical biconditional (<->) and the logical equivalence (<=>). It's a really big deal to some schools of logic (Quine, etc.), who regard their confounding on a (sub-)par with use-mention confusions. It's a deal, but not such a big deal to many in the math community, who tend to use (<=>) for both, but they have a different way of handling the distinction between assertion and contemplation that makes the symbol used less of a problem, and the fact that they save the light arrow (->) for function notation leads many to use the amphisbane arrow (<->) for a one-to-one correspondence. There is currently a mess of confusion about this in WP generally, that will eventually have to be sorted out, so I recommend keeping the articles at arm's length for the time being. Jon Awbrey 20:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Oppose merge. It's true that logical biconditional uses iff, but iff has many applications outside of math, those of which logical biconditional doesn't have. For example, someone could say "I'll let you do that, but if and only if you do this favor for me first." The sentence wouldn't make sense if the person said: "I'll let you do that, but only if we use logical biconditional, and you do this favor for me first." To sum up my point: iff does not imply logical biconditional, although logical biconditional does imply iff. Thus, iff emcompasses too broad a meaning, and logical biconditional is a more specific thing; therefore they both deserve their own page. wickedspikes 01:00, 09 April 2006 (PST)

Oppose merge. A strong mention of (reference link to) the biconditional is warranted, but they aren't so indistinct that the biconditional does not deserve its own page. Rainwarrior 15:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment If the articles are not merged, then the difference between iff and a logical biconditional needs to be explained in the articles. As they read now, I have a hard time seeing any difference. --PeR 07:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose merge -- agree with wickedspikes. Also, it makes more sense for any casual use of if to redirect here than to logical biconditional. See: its usage in Null set. -- AlanH (not signed in) July 18 2006

Oppose merge. There is a difference between iff and a logical biconditional -- iff ought to imply only a "necessary condition", but not a "sufficient condition". It is amusing how this subject, in contrast to other subjects in the field, is such a visible motive for controversy. Regards, AVM 21:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How it works in logic

Here is how we use double arrow ↔, i.e. iff, in logic:

1- (A ↔ B) is a shorthand symbol for [(A → B) ∧ (B → A)]

2- (A only if B) equals to (A → B)

Eric 06:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

No, (A only if B) equals (A → B); whatever follows the word "only if" is always the consequent, not the antecedent. --165.123.138.170 08:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[update] You are absolutely right. It was a typos. (A → B) is obviously the correct form of (A only if B). Then I corrected my comment. Thank you for pointing it out.

Eric 22:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] suggested addition

I want to put in a brief note to include the formulation "just in case" which is commonly used in philosophy to mean "if and only if" even though the usual English meaning of "just in case" is "as a precaution against...", as in, e.g., "I took my umbrella just in case it started raining". This page redirects from "just in case" in the when you search for that phrase so I think it would be a useful addition. Davkal 22:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

A similar construction popular in mathematics is "exactly when", as in "n is the sum of two odd integers exactly when it is even". McKay 04:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I have added bothDavkal 13:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

'In case' is used very rarely but still go ahead and add it and other synonyms for iff. --GoOdCoNtEnT 01:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

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