Template talk:History of Iran

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Contents 1 Hotaki 2 Tajik 3 Khwarezm 4 Persian dominance

[edit] Hotaki

What is the reason that this dynasty should not be included on the template? The Hotaki ruled in Iran for fourteen years, making them very clearly an important part of the history of Iran. Are there others that are missing from this template of similar importance? (i.e., is there a precedent?) As it is, I don't see any reason to not include them, if for no other reason for the sake of completeness. siafu 03:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know much about Persian history, so exactly how much of Iranian controlled territory did they take and rule? The article isn't completely clear in this regard (it states some regions without giving an idea of how large that area is, how large in comparison to Iran at the time, and how much of that territory was formerly controlled by Iran). If it was simply the rebellion of a province that was able to control parts of eastern Iran, then I don't think it merits inclusion. Unless, of course, it was a significant event in Iranian history (which it may be, I don't know, but it doesn't seem like it is as significant as the other items listed). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 03:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Again 1719-29 is not 14 years, and as i said in the edit history and Yom said above, the hotaki was not a ruling dynasty, they rebelled against the persians, toke control of parts of eastern persia, killed a bunch of civilians and finally 10 years after they were defeated by nader shah. And every one of them including their leader ashraf were hunted down and killed by nader shahs army. varable i think reading about the hotaki should answer your questions. Furthermore if this were to be included in the list, then you might for examlpe include every single invation and temporary conquest on the romans and europe by the turks and mogols and persians and moors and arabs. Or perhaps include the invation and slauther of vietnam and its people by US troops as a ruling dynasty! --213.113.242.74 04:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

1722-1736 is 14 years, per the entry on the template. The article has 1709-1738, 19 years. We're not talking about Vietnam, btw, and I'm really thinking that inflammatory arguments aren't going to help anything. I ask again, are there any dynasties that ruled in Iran on a par with the Hotaki that are not included? siafu 04:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The entry on the template might say 1722-36 but thats wrong, its 1719-29, however how long the invation lasted does not change a thing, they still were not a ruling dynasty. Again reading about the hotaki and history of iran should answer your questions. --213.113.242.74 04:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you unable or unwilling to answer the question? So far the argument you are presenting doesn't make sense without a context; it's just an opinion. You don't think that the Hotaki should be listed because they're not a big deal and are just "an invation." Reading about the Hotaki is not going to tell me if there are other dynasties not included in this template, and that's the piece of information that would lend credence to your argument. siafu 13:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Why insist on having hotaki dynasty on the template when obviously you don't have any knowledge about them or irans history. And i beleive i answered your question on the template history. --213.113.242.74 00:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

So you've gone from a slippery slope to an ad hominem. You haven't answered the question, all you've said so far is that you don't think that the Hotaki are important enough-- I'm asking very simply how important is important enough? Is it just your opinion you're operating on, or is there some weight to it? siafu 00:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Further down the page where, exactly? There haven't been any answers to my objections, and no explanation for the removal of the one entry beyond an arbitrary personal opion. Some further weight is in order. siafu 20:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

No explanation? lol, look up, how many times did i explain to you what hotaki really was, and how much of iran they conquered. You keep asking questions about them without even considering reading about them yourself, and i really fail to see why you keep insisting their existence on the template, when like your saying yourself you dont have any knowledge about them. You keep asking me if the safavids were still the rulers after they attacked and i keep telling you the answer is infront of my edit on the history page for the article, you see the long explanation edit? this edit: 06:46, 6 July 2006 213.113.242.74. Dear user if you want answers you have to look for them, instead of asking or telling me to show them to you. --Spahbod 20:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I've asked you nothing of the sort. In particular, I am asking why the Hotaki dynasty entry does not belong on this template. The only reason you've presented is that you don't think that they are important enough. Now it's very simple-- how important is important enough? Does the slippery slope you've referred to (on 6 July, among other places) actually exist, and are there other, similiarly rated entries that are not included, or is this the only one? Moreover, whatever knowledge I may or may not have is irrelevant, as it isn't about me, it's about the template. The entry was added here, in May, and resided there without any objections from anyone else, so it's not unreasonable for me to challenge for the particulars of your objection. siafu 20:41, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This is what you said above: I ask again, are there any dynasties that ruled in Iran on a par with the Hotaki that are not included? siafu 04:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC). And i said i answered you in the history section infront of the edit i shown below. Now can you please tell me what does it say infront of this edit in the history section?: 06:46, 6 July 2006 213.113.242.74 --Spahbod 11:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

This is absurd; either you don't speak English sufficiently well, or you're being intentionally difficult. The answer to my query that you cited is the following: The entry on the template might say 1722-36 but thats wrong, its 1719-29, however how long the invation lasted does not change a thing, they still were not a ruling dynasty. Again reading about the hotaki and history of iran should answer your questions. --213.113.242.74 04:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC) I did read the article about the Hotaki dynasty, and it didn't say anything at all about any other dynasties or periods, which is what I was, and am asking about. So no, you didn't answer, and your objections aren't making much sense, but just for the sake of being completely clear, I'll go over them again. You've objected to having the Hotaki listed on this template for four reasons:

1. The Hotaki were not a "ruling dynasty".
2. The Hotaki's reign did not last very long.
3. I "don't know much about Iranian history."
4. If we include the Hotaki, we might as well include other insignificant groups or periods.

One at a time. As for the first, neight were the Provisional Government, the Iranian Revolution, the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Proto-Elamite civilization or the Jiroft Civilization, so I fail to see how that makes a difference as those are all include (IMO, justifiably). As for the second, two of the ones I just listed were much shorter indeed, but we'll return to this in #4. Number 3 is a ridiculous ad hominem based on knowledge of expertise that not only do you not have, but is irrelevant. Number 4 is a slippery slope, and this is the reason I have been asking again and again whether or not there really are any other entries that are being omitted and which we would apparently be forced to include if we include the Hotaki. Are there? Are you going to answer that, since you're claiming to so much more of an expert on Iranian history than me, or are you going to continue to insist that you've answered, when you've done nothing of the sort. The ball remains in your court, and until you can prove your slippery slope is real, there's no reason not to include the Hotaki in this template are the period is very much a part of the history of Iran and very much belongs in a template on the history of Iran. siafu 14:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

You accuse me of ad hominem and slippery slope, then you say this: This is absurd; either you don't speak English sufficiently well, or you're being intentionally difficult.?

For the fifth time the answer to your question: I ask again, are there any dynasties that ruled in Iran on a par with the Hotaki that are not included? siafu 04:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC). Is infront of this edit: [1] 06:46, 6 July 2006 213.113.242.74, in the edit history of the template itself.

And Not in the discussion page as you shown me here: The entry on the template might say 1722-36 but thats wrong, its 1719-29, however how long the invation lasted does not change a thing, they still were not a ruling dynasty. Again reading about the hotaki and history of iran should answer your questions. --213.113.242.74 04:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC) --Spahbod 15:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The link you are pointing to does not point to an edit, but the edit history, and there are no edits listed for 6 July. At all. siafu 15:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes i said before that it is in the edit history and it is an edit summary. You say there are no edits listed for 6 july? There are six edits listed for 6 july. This is the latest one, thus 06:46, 6 July 2006 213.113.242.74. The edit after it is :21:41, 10 July 2006 81.214.113.115. I suggest you Keep looking. --Spahbod 17:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Alternately, you could not play this childish game of hide and seek and just say what your amazing message is. siafu 17:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No, because you know very well where my message is, and it is you that is playing hide and seek with me. --Spahbod 17:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Right, that's exactly what I'm doing. What the hell are you talking about? I don't see any such edit summary, so you might as well repeat yourself as it doesn't cost you anything. siafu 17:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Lol, for gods sake, fine here is the message: 06:46, 6 July 2006 213.113.242.74 (Talk) (even tho hotaki toke control of parts of eastern persia the safavids were still the ruling dynasty of that time period).

As said in the message, the safavids were still rulers, they lost a battle forcing them to flee the capital to western iran and regrouping, after 10 years they under Nader shah's command defeated the afghans to the very last man, even hunted down the leader Ashraf and killed him, thus ending the rebellion, and later nader shah overthrew the last safavid king and declared himself king, beginning the afsharid dynasty. --Spahbod 17:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

This does not matter. The Hotaki dynasty (under Ashraf Ghilzai) was the "de facto" ruling dynasty of Persia, and they were considered the new Shahs of Persia by both Zarist Russia and by the Ottoman Empire. In fact, the Ottomans even wanted to re-install the surviving Safavids as puppets - that's why Ashraf was forced to kill them. Later on, he had to fight the Ottomans in Azerbaijan, where he defeated them and strengthened his position as new Shah of Persia. It was 7 years later that Nadir Shah, nominally a "slave of the Safavids" ("=Quli Beg") defeated the Hotaki and proclaimed himself Shah of Persia. You are totally underestimating the role of the Hotakis in Persia who were not just "rebells", as you claim, but a ruling family who considered themselvs the legitimate inheritors of the Safavids and old Shahs of Iran. Here is an article about this in the famous Encyclopaedia Iranica: [2] (note that the article is called "Ashraf Ghilzai, Shah of Persia"). I am going to revert the template to the old version. Since the Encyclopaedia Iranica is authoritative, I do not think that you can disprove its information. Tājik 23:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a big difference between proclaiming oneself king and being king, and thats exactly what the afghans did, they were never accepted as rulers of Persia by the persians nor by the ruling dynasty at the time which were the safavids. Whether or not foreign powers recognized their rule is irrelevant. Yes we all know that Encyclopaedia Iranica is a legitimate source. The article in Iranica conforms that they did proclaim themselfs Shahs of Iran, and also does mention that they were never accepted as a ruling dynasty by the Iranians, however it does also mention that they did rule in Iran, so i am not going to dispute the matter any furhter. However they were defetead in 1729 and not 1736 as the template said, also there is no need to include the word pasthun, if we do that then we might as well rewrite all dynasties. Reason why i and many more see them as rebels is that it takes more than killing thousands of civilians, setting the capital on fire, and proclaiming onself king to be a ruling dynasty. Also nader shah was originally along with his mother a slave of the "Ozbegs". There is extended info about nader shah and the afghans here: [3]. --Spahbod 12:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tajik

As i mentioned in your talk page, i have changed back their name to original international name, and there is no need to single out a dynasty by naming both their family and ethnic name like you did for hotaki Ghilzai. We cant name dynasties here like that. Then someone else will come and say this safavid dynasty must be renamed to savafid turkic dynasty etc. I think we understand eachother --Spahbod 16:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

"Hotaki" is not a family name, but a sub-clan of the Ghilzai-Pashtun clan. So, the correct name is Hotaki Ghilzai dynasty, the same way the Afghan kings became known as Sodozai Abdali/Sadozai Durrani (because Ahmad Shah Abdalis was from the "Sadozai" clan of the Abdali Pashtuns). Tājik 17:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, in that case let it be hotaki ghilzai then. But as you are probably aware the long name singles them out, drawing all attention to the only two named dynasty. I am sure you agree. --Spahbod 17:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Khwarezm

I don't know which scholars you are refering to tajik, but Encyclopedia Britannica calls them Khwarezm-shah dynasty and the website Allempires.com calls them Khwarezm-Shâh Empire: [4]. However since Britannica is a reliable source we should follow, and i agree that they were a dynasty not an empire. But then again variable you make a good point, pointing out that khwarezm-shah empire is redundant. So i suggest we call them "Khwarezmid dynasty", all agree? --Spahbod 23:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as Khwarezm was a province and not a family or dynastic name, that seems somewhat inappropriate. Almost all sources on the Mongol conquest refer to it as "Khwarezmian Empire" or "the Khwarezm Shah" (i.e., making war on the Muhammed II himself). I'd suggest Khwarezmian Empire as this is the English wikipedia, and this is an English term.

On another note, regardless of what we decide here no one should move Khwarezmian Empire without discussing it and gaining consensus on that page first. The two do not necessarily need to be consistent. siafu 00:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well khwarezmid is not far from khwarezmian but i agree with tajik that they were not a real empire. It also seems that various sources say different things then, so my suggestion is still Khwarezmid dynasty, perhaps we should vote! --Spahbod 00:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

There are only three of us. If you want a straw poll, you should probably put a note on Wikipedia:Current surveys and/or Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography to get some more opinions. Between Khwarezmid and Khwarezmian I have no preference, but it seems fair to call it an empire. It was a rather large state, larger than the Seljuq province of Khwarezmia that spawned it, and seems to fit the basic definition of empire... even if it was short-lived. There are plenty of sources that refer to it this way, as well, but as mentioned all the ones I know about are about the Mongols principally, and not Khwarezmia. siafu 00:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The name either way should be Khwarezmid since this is proper form in English like Achaemenid or Sassanid. Question: why is it important if it is "empire" or "Shahs"? Maybe you should move article to Kingdom of Khwarezmia. If it was kingdom and not empire, then that would be more correct. Khorshid 03:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The correct name of the dynasty was "Khwarizm Shahs" - they were not an "Empire". "Khwarizm" is the Persian name of the Central Asian lands close to the Caspian Sea. And since they were a dynasty of Seljuq vasals who ruled in Khwarizm, they became known as "Shahs of Khwarizm". They did not have a tribal name or a family name, as the Seljuqs or Qarakhanids had (this is one of the strongest arguments against the "Turkic origin" theory of the dynasty), and thus were simply known as "the Shahs". Their kingdom did not have the creteria for an "Empire" and was absolutely no comparison to the Sassanid, Byzantinian, Abbasid, or Seljuq Empires. Richard N. Frye uses the term "Khwarizm Shahs" in his book "Persia" (Zürich, 1963) and I suggest to use it here, too. Tājik 12:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

From Empire:

Generally, an empire is defined as a state that extends dominion over areas and populations that are culturally and ethnically distinct from the culture at the center of power. Like other states, an empire maintains its political structure at least partly by coercion.

Seems like Khwarezmia was an empire, reasonably enough. But it's not so important; "Khwarezm Shahs" is used often in other sources as well. siafu 13:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not Khwarezm shahs is used by some historians, i believe it will cause confusion in this template, becasue it is not a usual name for a dynasty or a kingdom or an empire for that matter. Also it steals attention from the rest of the dynasties in the template. --Spahbod 13:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Persian dominance

Regarding Alphros' last edit, where he deleted the entire template because it was "biased":

1. You should not completely delete an article or template simply because you feel it is biased. There are several alternative methods, such as changing the parts that you think are biased, discussing any alleged bias on a discussion page, or putting an appropriate tag onto the article.

2. The template is not a list of Persian dynasties that were dominant. It is instead a list of dynasties that controlled Iran or a substancial part of it. There are several non-Persian dynasties on the list: Timurids, the Ak and Kara Koyunlu federations, Ilkhans, Ghaznavids, etc. They all belong on the list because at some point in history they incorporated at least a large part of Iran into their dominions. This is why the Seljuks are up there, which leads me to:

3. The Seljuk dates on the template are mostly accurate. The Rum Seljuks, which survived as Ilkhan vassals until 1307, are not included on the template. I changed the end date of the Seljuks from 1187 to 1194; this was the year when the Khwarazmshah Tekish defeated and killed the Seljuk sultan of Hamadan, Toghril III, and annexed his territories (I believe the 1187 date was based off when the Seljuks of Kerman were expelled by the Oghuz? Anyway, the Seljuk page itself is extremely messed up and could use some real work on it. That has no bearing on this template however).

Ro4444 09:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)