Talk:Goryeo
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[edit] Empire...
Should the fact that Goryeo "functioned" as an empire (which, in my opinion, is misleading and wrongly emphasised) really take up that much of the introduction? I might be in the minority among Koreans in feeling that being associated with empire is nothing to brag about, but there is a host of problems that come from claiming that Goryeo functioned as an empire. The gross simplification of equivalating hwangje to emperor aside, the significance of taking on imperial trappings would be lost to most general readers not versed in ancient East Asian order. Besides, Goryeo did not conquer many different peoples and made them imperial subjects, as many general readers might understand "functioning as an empire" to mean. --Iceager 18:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Response to "Empire..."
Well, one must understand what it means to be an empire in the traditional Asian world. An empire in a westerner's point of view is a nation that conquers other ehtnic groups and incorporates them into its society. However, an empire in East Asia is merely a fully sovereign nation that does not submit itself to another. Goryeo was indeed an empire. It did not submit itself to China, and its rulers carried the name "Hwangje" (up until Mongol rule). That's what defines an empire in East Asia. Similar to Japan, it didn't conquer other peoples and incorporate them into its society, they merely were just independent from outside nations. Yet we have no problem refering to the Japanese as an Empire because of contemporary history regarding the Japanese in WWII.
However, you must also realize that Goryeo DID have subjects. Northern tribes submitted tribute to the Goryeo rulers, as well as many Japanese shogun and the island nation of Tamna (current day Jejudo) that was incorporated into the Joseon dynasty later. So, infact Goryeo did have subjects. I think that the writer did a good job in explaining that it functioned as an empire, but that they should also state that it was not tributary to China or any other nations.
[edit] Goryeo's Original Status
It is clearly seen in pictures that Wang-geon was considered an emperor. He wore yellow/gold. When the Mongols vassalized Goryeo, the ruler was prohibitted from wearing gold as a symbol of Mongol sovereignty. The same happened during Joseon when it submitted itself to both Ming and Qing. Gold is a color reserved for emperors, kings must wear red or blue. Notice that in every picture you see a Joseon-ese ruler in, he wears either red or blue (up until the late 19th century where King Gojong proclaimed himself Emperor). This has to be taken into account as well.
Not even on days of coronation, or any other special ceremonies, were Joseon kings permitted to wear gold garments. This defines a significant difference between that of an Emperor and of a King. The fact that Wang-geon wore gold shows his status as the Emperor of Goryeo.
When Yi Seong-ye established Joseon, he wore blue.
This can also be seen on women's clothing. The Empress wore a garment with dragons embroidered on the sleeves. A queen would wear one with pheonixes as opposed to dragons to symbolize her status as a queen, and not as an empress. During the Goryeo Dynasty, the female counterpart of the male ruler wore dragons embroidered on her clothing, symbolizing her to be an Empress, and him to be an Emperor.
Traditional attire, especially of the court, is extremely important in reflecting the status of the people. Attire does not lie.
- It all sounds very plausible. However, since Wikipedia policy prohibits original research, please provide a citation from a reputable historian. -- Visviva 15:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] References
I Added the 1st source of history.
- The History of the Koryo Dynasty(高麗史, the 1st source written in Chinese, the file type is PDF.) Seoul National Univ.
- The official history of Koryo is printed by woodblock in 1580.
- --Lulusuke 10:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Emepror of Goryeo
I could not find any primary source that the ruler of Goryeo was called as emperor or 皇. Originally, 皇 is not Korean king's name. It is chinese stuff. I wonder Korean just mimic the chinese system. As far as I know, only Balhae adopted the system of chinese rulers name. The main article may be wrong... What the Goryeo had powerful military power does not means that the ruler was called as an emperor. It is just the designation title. Can anybody show the source ??--Drpepper000 10:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Response to Emperor of Goryeo
The thing is, it's very hard to find a reliable source for the official names of the Goryeo rulers. However, they DID address their rulers as 陛下, which is styled for an emperor. They also used 宗 for posthumous names, the exact way the Chinese rulers (Prior to Ming) did, AND had era names. This shows they were at the same level as the Chinese rulers, making the rulers of Goryeo emperors. So although there's no exact evidence, we can use evidence to base such a claim. Please also realize that Shilla began the adoption of Chinese titles & Chinese styled government. This was carried onto Goryeo, as titles had to be documented and Koreans at the time wrote in Chinese characters. It is without doubt that both states, Balhae and Goryeo, had a Chinese-styled government. Also, no one mentioned military strength as being a defining aspect of an empire; empires are defined politically, not militarily.
Not ONLY that, but the name of the capital was Gaegyeong (開京) the word 京 is only used for imperial capitals (All the time in Korean & most of the time in Chinese); capitals of kingdoms are usually named differently usually using 城 or 陽 (Such as with previous dynasties). The fact that Goryeo had multiple capitals also serves to justify its status as an empire; Pyeongyang was known during Goryeo as Seogyeong (西京) and Seoul as Namgyeong (南京) (Note that there was also a Donggyeong, but no Bukgyeong, as Gaegyeong took the place of it). Once again, one may use certain aspects of the era to decipher the nation's status, and it was indeed an empire.
- Unfortunately, without a reliable source such speculation is original research. -- Visviva 08:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
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- No secondary source says that Goryeo is empire. I think that the main article adopted the original research by Korean nationalists. Goryeo just mimicked the calling convention of China so that it looked like an empire. Goryeo do not differentiate the king and empire.
- 陛下 and 宗 wer also used in Joseon. But, Joseon is not empire. There was only one ruler, which is king. Again, this is only calling convention adopting the system of China. In order for Goryeo to be called Empire, the greastest rulers of empire used the posthumous names of 皇帝. But, no king used the name of 皇帝 in goryeo.
- You said 京 is used for only empire. The capital city of Tang is 長安. 京 is not used for the capital city of Tang empire.
- You can see the obvious difference between kingdom and empire if you compare the posthumous name of Korean Empire and goryeo --Hairwizard91 08:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- No secondary source says that Goryeo is empire. I think that the main article adopted the original research by Korean nationalists. Goryeo just mimicked the calling convention of China so that it looked like an empire. Goryeo do not differentiate the king and empire.
This is the posthumerous name of Korea empire
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- Gojong of Korean empire --> 高宗統天隆運肇極敦倫正聖光義明功大德堯峻舜徽禹謨湯敬應命立紀至化神烈巍勳洪業啓基宣曆乾行坤定英毅弘休壽康文憲武章仁翼貞孝皇帝
- Sunjong of Korean empire --> 純宗文溫武寧敦仁誠敬皇帝
- Gojong of Korean empire --> 高宗統天隆運肇極敦倫正聖光義明功大德堯峻舜徽禹謨湯敬應命立紀至化神烈巍勳洪業啓基宣曆乾行坤定英毅弘休壽康文憲武章仁翼貞孝皇帝
This is Goryeo's posthumerous name.
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- Gwangjong of Goryeo --> 弘道宣烈平世大成大王
- Jeongjong I of Goryeo --> 至德章敬正肅文明大王
- Gwangjong of Goryeo --> 弘道宣烈平世大成大王
You see the difference between empire and kingdom.--Hairwizard91 09:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but what's being argued is the functioning of Goryeo as an empire. That's what it says in the article. On another note, the rulers of Joseon were addressed as Cheonha (I can't find the characters for it). Adding to that, no one said that 京 was the only option for an imperial capital name; however the capital city of the Tang Dynasty had the word "長" which means head. The capital of Shilla and Joseon ended with the characters 城. Now do you see the difference? The same goes for many other Chinese capitals that used the words 都. And during the reign of the Yongle Emperor of Ming, the capital was at a city called 京師.
the word "長" means head? You can not be more wrong. Can you explain the meaning of '長城'? Not evidence and no reason shows the capitcal of kingdom can not use '京'. The names of capiticals of many China dynasty did not use '京'. You should not explain Chinese word in such an simple way. Even the same character may have different pronuciations and meanings. I have seen a article at '東亞日報' . It said Manchu people are descendant of Sinla. One evidence of him is that '爱新觉罗', the surname of royal family of Qing Dynasty. It said it means '爱'(love) '新罗'. So funny! Right? '爱新觉罗' is just the spelling of the pronunciation. You know, Manchu people have their own language. Just like '华盛顿' is the spelling of the pronunciation of Washington.
And the posthumous names are definately questionable, as Gwangjong definately had 皇帝 in his posthumous name. There's simply no debate in at least this one area. As for the Jeongjong, I'm not 100% sure. Also keep in mind that the methods of the different (Chinese) dynasties vary when it comes to enshrinement. For example, the presence of temple names during the Tang Dynasty up until the early Ming Dynasty identified a emperors/sovreign rulers. That's why Goryeo rulers were robbed of their temple names during the Yuan dynasty and Shilla rulers were enshrined as "王" (as the states were tributary). However, during the late Ming & Qing, this was done away with.
>長 means head in the respect of head city or head person (in charge). Not the head on your neck... Example: the Chinese word for Principal: 校長. Literally means "head of school." Now don't you feel silly?
And your arguement is extremely flimsy. I understand the second half of what you said, but I do not recognize its relevance to this topic. What you're talking about is the use of Chinese characters by a foreign people (the Manchu). What I'm referring to is the way the Chinese people used their own language, not how the Manchus used it or how foreign words are pronounced using Chinese characters. Your arguement is incoherent and irrelevant.
I'm also not stating that 京 is the only word associated with imperial capitals; you just don't seem to understand that, do you? I'm saying it is a name that CANNOT be given to the capital city of a non-imperial government. And you're pretty off if you think 長城 has anything to do with this. 長 can be read two ways: zhang and chang. Chang means long, zhang, however, does not. Wow.
Once again! Even the same character may have different pronuciations and meanings. "長" has two pronuciations- 'Zhang' and 'Chang'. 'Zhang' sometimes really means 'head'. However, the pronuciation of '長安' is 'Chang An'. You see the difference?
I gave example because I thought they made the similar mistake! They both know some Chinese, or a little Chinese character(most Korean know some Chinese characters). But, the problem is they thought they are expert so that they explain Chinese by their own manner, by imagination.
Uh, right... But '長安' has two possible meanings, just because it's read "chang" in current day Chinese doesn't mean it was read the same in Chinese of years past. And please learn to speak better English before you submit articles/discuss articles on the English section of the site. You may confuse the readers, as I've had a hard time reading most of what you've written.
Thank you for your advice. But if I do not practise my english how can I improve it. If you had a hard time to read my sentences, just ignore them. It's not your duty to read them. Blaming my skill of Enligsh can not give any support your viewpoint.My advice to you is to learn Chinese well and not to guess the meaning of Chinese word you do not exactly. Do not give evidence even you own are not very sure whether it is true or not. As your method, I would be able to say '한강' has the meaning of 'River of Han Chinese' and '한국' has the relation with a ancient kindom of China '韓'. How wrong they are! Shame on you. The meaning of '長安' may be long peacefule (city).
- You totally missed the point of this discussion. We are discussing whether or not Goryeo was an empire. And I am saying that Goryeo was not empire.
- Moreover, dont interpret the Korean history using the method for Chiese history interpretation. Did Silla used 王 because of a tributal state, uh? You must learn about the Korean history if you want to saying such like that. You must read Offspring of heaven to know the reason why Korean state do use 王. It is translation of Korean word Imgeum into Chinese character.--Hairwizard91 15:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
- I will cite some sentence for you
- "Korean kingdoms had never used an emperor(Huángdì, 皇帝) as the title of rulers because they thought that the highest rulers was Heaven, and all rulers must be a representative of Heaven. This concept of the Posterity of Heaven is somewhat different from the Chinese concept of the Son of Heaven or a Chinese emperor. It is believed that the Chinese emperor governs the Chinese as the son of Heaven. But, the Koreans believe that they themselves are the descendants of Heaven, the Heavenly God governs them by himself, and a king of a nation is nothing but the supervisor as a representative of Heaven."
You yourself are without the knowledge of something very crucial. Yes, 王 is read (using the Korean system) as "Imgeum Wang" (임금 왕) (the Hun and Eum system), but both the characters 皇 and 帝 are read with "Imgeum" as their Korean equivalents. 皇 is read as "Imgeum Hwang" (임금 황), and 帝 is read as "Imgeum Je" (임금 제). So you see, they do not translate to anything more than "Imgeum" or "sovreign". In Korean, the Chinese characters were each assigned two things: a meaning (hun 훈 訓) followed by the Korean-ized sound of the Chinese pronunciation (eum 음 音). Neither of the 訓 possess the Korean word for God in them. Korea (the entire peninsula) adopted Chinese government and institutions during the Shilla era (earliest was Baekje, but I want to emphasis the unified peninsula). Sino-Centrism dictates that this is why Korean rulers used 王, not because of their own beliefs but because of Chinese influence. That is why the 4th ruler, Gwangjong, of Goryeo declared it to be an empire, and I quote, "independent from any other countries" and himself to be an emperor.
At the SAME time, let's take a look at what happened during 大韓帝國. Gojong elavated himself to the status of Emperor. It is very well known that he did this to envoke nationalism and because the Jeong Dynasty (정,情) was weakened in the late 19th century. So according to you, Gojong just decided he was the Son of Heaven, when he was just a representative in the past? No, not at all.
