Talk:Final Fantasy character classes

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Very incomplete. Feel free to add on, just use the format and don't remove information. (unless rules say this should be deleted, in which case whatever)

Contents 1 Table Knights? 2 A question of clarity 3 Hmmm... 4 New Proposal 5 FFX Characters 6 Other classes 7 Gambler?! 8 Another idea... 9 Other Classes for inclusion? 10 Image 11 Calculator 12 Too many slashes. 13 Inclusion of infrequent classes in the article 14 Class Image Continuity 15 Weasel words/OR stuff 16 What to include in this article 17 Cid Highwind

[edit] Table Knights?

I wasn't sure if this was the name in the Japanese version of Final Fantasy Tactics, but Magic Sword in the US version belongs to Beowulf, who is labelled a "Temple" Knight. I wasn't sure whether I should change this or not, so I'm putting it here first. (Forgot to tag my name, sorry) - Nickoten

It is temple knight, I made a mistake translating that years ago and memorized the wrong wording. I will change that right now. MythSearcher 06:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it. I corrected the minor misspelling. - Nickoten

Opps, typo. Thanks for fixing that, too. MythSearcher 00:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Was that a confusion of Knights of the Round Table with the Knights Templar? ---Retrospectre 22:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Most likely. FFT isn't exactly known for its stellar translation, after all. Nickoten 18:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A question of clarity

I made some rather major edits to the page, most notably removing the lists of games in which a specific class has appeared. My rationale is that this information is, by and large, extremely tricky, because the classes change quite a bit depending on the specific game. Is it misleading to identify Minwu (from Final Fantasy II) as a White Mage, for instance, despite the fact that he was never explicitly referred to as such? Certainly, Umaro (Final Fantasy VI) very closely resembles a Berserker, but that term is never used (the Japanese version of the game, which did have class names for all of the characters, called him a "Sasquatch"). And the whole Fighter/Knight situation is perhaps the biggest: depending on the game, the terms are treated somewhat synonymously. The Knight in Final Fantasy V, for instance, bears as much in common with the Fighter from earlier games as it does with the Knight. And the problem only gets worse as we bring in more specialized classes: the Warrior from Final Fantasy X-2 is more like the Magic Swordsman from FFV, but is more often identified with the Knight. The Chemist in FFV is nothing like the Chemists from the Final Fantasy Tactics games, and so on. And I don't think it's exactly fair to identify characters in games without enumerated classes (Final Fantasy II, Final Fantasy VII through Final Fantasy X) with a specific class for a similar reason.

This kind of information can be dealt with in prose, as I have attempted to do, but making a straight-up "list" is trickier, and I'm not sure it's really possible to summarize in such a fashion without being misleading. Does anyone else have any thoughts? – Seancdaug 20:33, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hmmm...

Well, in truth, I really only created this as a first stab at Wikipedia, and my rationing has changed quite a bit now, almost to the point of wanting to discontinue the whole thing. But seeing as it does have a bit of potential, your reasoning seems fine with me, and I intend to expand. However, if we're going to keep the whole "melee/magic/blah/blah" categorizations, "major classes" should be "melee classes" right now, and I would still like notes about some of the classes I had before. (paladin, dark knight, etc) -- the creator, who still doesn't have a wikipedia account...thing. June 01, 2005.

Oh, don't get me wrong: I do think this page should be here. I do have concerns about organizing the information contained within, but that's a question of presentation, really. As for the whole "major classes" name: at the time, yes, it was only melee classes, but that was simply a matter of updating: the only classes in the entire article were, at that point, melee fighters... I can see dividing it into melee/magic, but I'm not sure the "stealth" category is particularly valid: the games themselves really don't differentiate in that manner. I think most of the classes that would fall into that category could probably be folded into a generic "physical fighters" category, and various magic users (broadly concieved) could fit into a "magic users" category. This does present a problem with a very few classes (Beastmaster/Mediators, Mimes, etc.), but when we start to introduce them, we can create a "miscellaneous" category. As it is, though, I personally don't like creating empty headings: there's no reason they can't be added in when someone is ready to throw that info onto the page.

The problem with some of the classes you mention in your note above is that they're too game-specific: the Paladin and Dark Knight classes really don't appear outside of Final Fantasy IV in any meaningful capacity. While that doesn't mean they shouldn't be mentioned anywhere, they should be kept to the games to which they are relevant (or, really, even the characters to which they are relevant, namely Cecil). By simply saying "Final Fantasy" in the article title, that implies something more or less universal to the series, which many specialized classes are not (the same goes for jobs like Calculator, or Mascot, or Gunner). – Seancdaug 00:51, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

The Paladin class is also in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, the Dark Knight class also appears in Final Fantasy X-2 and both classes appear in Final Fantasy Online. I also think the Blue Mage class should be included, since even though the class has only appearen in two Final Fantasy games, the class did introduce Blue Magic, which has been in every game in the main Final Fantasy series from FF5 to FF10 in one form or another. What's a good threshold for inclusion in the class list? I'm thinking three games, with a special exception for Blue Mages because of how many games Blue Magic and its variants have appeared in. Should classes that don't meet the minimum go into a minor classes section at the bottom?

My knowledge of some of the more recent installments in the series is incomplete (I've only gotten a short ways into Final Fantasy X-2 and have not played Final Fantasy XI, so I am more than willing to be correct on that front. My criteria, if I remember correctly, was three games, by which standards the Blue Mage would apply (FF5, FFTA, Strago in Final Fantasy VI, and Quina from Final Fantasy IX in the "almost" category, much like Umaro and the Berserker class). In any case, as we have an entire article on Blue magic, it would be silly to exclude the Blue Mage from our list of classes. It was just never gotten around to. In general, if a class has only appeared in one or two games, I think that class should be be covered in the games in which it appears. This article is not a list of every class, and should, IMO, remain simply as a list of the most notable and recognizable examples.

That being said, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. The Berserker only barely squeaks by the three game rule if we include Umaro. The Chemist passes the three game rule, but I didn't include it because it really is an entirely different class in FF5 than it is in FFT, and the same can be said of Dark Knights in FF4 and FFT. And many of the later games tend to defy easy categorization (Quistis and Kimahri both use blue magic, but I'm not sure I'd classify them as Blue Mages; is Relm a Monster Trainer because she can use "Command," etc.). Personally, I'd like a class to appear in at least two games as a selectable job, with at least one additional appearance in some form or another, but there are probably some obvious problems with this as a general rule, so I wouldn't necessarily put it forward as a guideline.

Though it's not helpful as I'd like, I'd say we should go for a solidly representative sample from the entire series, and avoiding showing favoritism to any one title. Specific write-ups of the Gunner, for instance, belong in the Final Fantasy X-2 article. And they should go there: a lot of the gameplay information in the individual FF articles is very lacking, and I think we should focus on individual games over and above all-encompassing articles like this one more often than not. But that's not to say that there aren't classes that can still be added to this article (the Blue Mage is the big one, but there may be others) – Seancdaug 13:22, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Proposal

With some help from fellow Wikiproject:FFers, I hope to greatly expand this article. Instead of first make a large, lackluster edit, I want to make a preliminary series of edits and a makeshift page (perhaps at Final Fantasy character classes/temp, or I would be willing to offer a section of my user page, much more pragmatic, probably: User:Lockeownzj00/classes) that incorporates every class in every Final Fantasy. We have long articles, and I don't think this is that ridiculous.

Right now I envision something like this: a general section listing the most common classes and several images comparing those of said class in various Final Fantasy games--other info can be added here, as well as class history. Then, each new section is of a Final Fantasy and its classes. Or, rather, There can be sections for the mainly job-oriented Fantasies (like III [somebody has to do mo'fuggin research on III, dagnabbit! i'll start playing it, maybe ;P], V, tactics, tactics advance, x-2), and then a miscellaneous section for any of the non-job/class fantasies that just have classes that deviate from the norm.

thoughts? Lockeownzj00 19:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] FFX Characters

Some characters such as Yuna and Tidus have parts from two classes. Yuna is a summoner and white mage while Tidus is a fast, time/space mage and fighter mixed together. Auron isn't even mentioned and neither is Wakka who has an unamed class.

[edit] Other classes

• Beastmaster/Morpher - Similar to Blue Mage. Should it be incorporated into that article or create a seperate one
• Ranger/Hunter/Archer - Possible new article

[edit] Gambler?!

Why did anyone put gambler with the classes?! It isn't an official class, except for the ONE time it's used. I don't see any reason of it being in here. But, i will wait for your opinion until i remove it.Armor Nick 18:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Besides, it defeats the nice (if vaguely satanic Template:Grin) 6-6-6 subsection balance. I've taken the liberty of removing it. – Seancdaug 04:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. The gambler class is used in at least 4 Final Fantasy games just with different names.

FF6: Setzer is a gambler. FF7 and FF10: Albiet only Limit Breaks, used by Cait Sith and Wakka respectively. FF10-2: Lady Luck appears as a dressphere if you beat Shinra in a Sphere Break match. Hogtree 08:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Hogtree. It even said that in the description. Put it back up. Ryu Ematsu

This isn't an article about particular battle attacks that have appeared in the series, so the presence of certain attacks in games that lack a class system should not be relevant as a deciding factor, even if it might be worth mentioning in entries where notability of that class can otherwise be indicated (i.e., that Cid Highwind has a lot of Dragon Knight-like characteristics, since Dragon Knights have appeared in many games). It is not in the interest of this article to list every character class that has ever appeared in the series, and gambler simply isn't that notable a class. The presence of a slot machine-style attack as a limit break in several games might be notable at the limit break article, and the specifics of Setzer's gambler and Final Fantasy X-2's lady luck classes might well be worth mentioning in Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy X-2, respectively, but the argument for including it here stretches the definition of what constitutes a character class so far that it might as well be meaningless, IMO. – Seancdaug 22:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This article isnt particularly about battle attacks but if a certain class appears in several FFX games then they are worth making them classes, ourselves. Your reference to FFVIIs'Cid is not really revelant for this discussion for the simple fact that Dragon Knights were officially placed under the class system of Dragoon which is what Cid is. The terms are synonymous. But the thing is there is a class for Dragoons(such as Cid) but there is one official class for Gamblers(such as Cait Sith). So if Cait Sith has no class what is it classified as (i.e FFVII's Cait Sith has no definite class, which is why it's a necessity to use the Gambler class for him.) CredibleLegend

We cannot "make a class." We are writing an encyclopedia: it is our job to describe that which is present in the game, and absolutely not to interpret anything beyond that. It is not "necessary" to apply classes to characters who are not assigned a class: not every game in the series has utilized the class system. If a character isn't explicitly identified as belonging to a particular class, it's beyond our scope to assign one to that character. A handful of games identify a few characters by class in dialogue (Cid Highwind being identified as a Dragon Knight/Dragoon in dialogue is an excellent example of this) but not elsewhere: these may be worth mentioning. But Cait Sith is not identified as a gambler anywhere in the game: presenting him as one in an article on character classes is tantamount to original research, and is manifestly unencyclopedic. Once more, a battle command is not the same thing as a character class: having the "jump" command doesn't mean that a character is a Dragon Knight, and have the slot command doesn't mean that a character is a gambler. There may be a case for creating a seperate article on special attacks that have appeared in multiple Final Fantasy games, but it doesn't belong here, in an article about a specifically defined and labelled concept. – Seancdaug 16:51, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

That idea's nice. We could make a separate one with every single Final Fantasy class. But who would start on it? Ryu Ematsu

As there are no limitations on spell/ability learning, FFVII does not have a true class system. The game never states the classes of a character and therefore(for our intents) characters have no class. If people are SOO worried about having a gamble class, it should be inserted as a paragraph in the "thief class" section as both share similar stats. For now i will remove the gambler class as it is only EXPLICITLY stated as a class in one Final Fantasy game and therfore is not important enough to the whole series to get its own section. Afterthough: Maybe there should be a section for classes appearing in only one FF game

I was the one who put the Gambler up. I think it should be there. Not all FF games name their classes. Nobody created a class. From who I've talked to, Gambler, albeit uncommon in FF games, is generally accepted as an FF character class. ---Retrospectre 19:28, 15 July 2006

I agree with what was said earlier about combining the class with thiefs and therfore have taken the liberty to do so. 03:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

While I can understand keeping the Gambler, it should not be combined with Thief. They really aren't the same class; Ninja is far closer to Thief than Gambler is, and they have grown quite different, and they are seperate. Hmm... I'm not sure what to do... 24.42.246.206 14:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm now inclining towards Seancdaug's idea, posted on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy#Character classes, that we prosify this article, similarly to Final Fantasy magic, and add a section discussing certain traits that show up across characters in FF games that are not necessarily classes - such as "gambling" or "luck" traits. I still firmly disagree that Gambler has appeared as a specific class in enough FF games to make it notable enough for an entry here, because any "so-and-so could be considered a Gambler" comes dangerously close to original research if it isn't specifically stated in game literature. Thoughts? -RaCha'ar 17:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I guess... I'm just worried about losing information on the major classes, that's all. I think the individual articles for the major unique classes (I'd Black Mage, White Mage, Dragon Knight, Blue Mage, Red Mage, and possibly Summoner?) should stay, and classes like Warrior, Thief, Ninja, and Monk should have parts in their general (character class)-type articles, but I have no problem with prosifying this list if it'll help. 24.42.246.206 18:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Merging Gambler with Thief makes no sense. None of the Gambler-like characters share anything in common with Thief. I'm willing to compromise on Seancdaug's idea though. But I'll comtinue to think of Gambler as a FF class. ---Retrospectre 22:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)Retrospectre

Retrospectre, you're in a minority here with regards to whether Gambler is an actual job class. Please read Wikipedia:NOR. Gambler as a job class cannot be sourced and as such, does not belong in an article that is specifically for character classes. It is not a named, specified job class frequently enough for inclusion under its own heading in the article, as per Seancdaug's reasoning above, in his comment dated March 29 2006. You thinking of Gambler as an FF class does not make it one - this is not a list of what could be considered a class in FF games, it's a list of actual classes and anything else is speculation. In addition, since we are writing an encyclopedia, we really need to steer away from weasel words such as "could be considered," which features prominently in the Gambler description as a means of justifying its presence (for that reason, we probably want to edit out or rephrase similar instances, such as "Rikku ...could be considered a Chemist"). Once again, if we consider rewriting the article to include certain attacks and features of characters, or even create a separate article for, say, Final Fantasy attacks or something similar, I would have no problem with Gambler-like features being included in that list. But it is not a character class without original research. Also, please note that the intro paragraph for this article specifies that it's about the most common character classes; it would be a stretch to argue that Gambler is one of those. I'm going to remove it one more time and ask you, please, do not re-add it until all of us come to an agreement about how this is going to be handled. -RaCha'ar 23:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Um... I just said I'm willing to compromise on Seancdaug's idea. I only seperated it from Thief because it definitely doesn't belong there. By the way, it does defintely appear in 2 games: X-2 and XI. At any rate, I won't add it, and I'm not going to argue it anymore. I'm just closing by saying I thoroughly disagree. ---Retrospectre 23:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

But it's called Lady Luck in X-2 and Corsair in XI, and especially in the latter case is pretty unique, better to include in an article about the specific game than this article, which attempts to cover a lot of ground on all FF games. Does that make sense? I'm not arguing whether there are classes with Gambler-like traits appearing in multiple games, but whether they can really be definitively called Gamblers without jumping to conclusions, something we as encyclopedia writers are not supposed to do. On a side note of Wikiquette, you should try to avoid starting any comment you make with "um..." I can't seem to find the WP page where I've seen this specified, but it's considered to be a little rude. -RaCha'ar 01:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

On a side note, maybe a 'Final Fantasy attacks' list would be a good idea after all. It could have things like Jump, Throw, and Slots, stuff like that.24.42.246.206 20:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree in principle. The problem is that I'm not sure what the terminology should be. IMO, "Final Fantasy attacks" sounds a little too cryptic. Any suggestions? (We should probably continue this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy, BTW, at least this part of it). – Seancdaug 21:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy#Character classes. -RaCha'ar 22:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another idea...

So what could be done, maybe, is gater all the classes, no matter what game they've been in, and put them all there. Also, note what games the classes have appeared in. Or, if it is a character with his own class, go for it. So, with the "Gunner" issue, we could mention the Gunner from FFTA, Mustadio (though technically an Engineer, he is a gunner) from FFT, and maybe Vincent from FFVII. Don't know what, if any, other games a gunner has appeared in. But anyhow, there's my two cents. —This unsigned comment was added by 71.192.227.51 (talk • contribs) .

Such a list would consist of somewhere in the ballpark of three dozen distinct character classes, IIRC. With such a large number, it would be difficult to devote much explanation to each class: in all likelihood, we'd not have much more than a straight list of all character classes without any description. This is not likely to be interesting to anyone who hasn't played the games, and therefore unencyclopedic on its face, IMO. The sort of detailed list you're describing is probably better suited for places like the Final Fantasy Wiki. – Seancdaug 04:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Classes for inclusion?

• Gunner: Appears in FFX2, TA, and Tactics (as Engineer). Not to mention that Vincent and Barret could be considered gunners. Supposed to appear in 12, too. There's also an analogue in 11, the Corsair.

• Archer/Ranger/Hunter: Appears in 3, 5, 6, 11, and (supposedly 12).

As far as I can tell, those are the only ones that have indesputably appeared in more than one game, and don't yet have a reference in the article.

I agree with Hunter/Archer, and it's currently there (it's also in the two Tactics, btw). Gunner, on the other hand... it has the same problem as Gambler and Machinist. There aren't enough definitive examples. As an actual class, it appears in only side games. 24.42.246.206 17:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't include Corsair as a Gunner. They use guns, but there focus is mainly on party buffs. The guns they use, and more, can also be used by Rangers and Thiefs. ---Retrospectre 22:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see the note until right after I changed it.

But really, it was pretty low quality. It's a .PNG of the FFV Butz sprite now.—ウルタプ 23:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

You're fine, the note was inserted for an anon user who kept replacing the Black Mage image, often unsuccessfully. I'm removing it now since its need has since passed. Thank you though for leaving the note here. :) -RaCha'ar 23:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which, we could use a few more FFV sprites here (in particular for Hunter and Beastmaster). I know most of the sprites are from FFV, but it has a good reason to be that way. 24.42.246.206 15:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calculator

I don't have much to say about it, but I'll go ahead and say. I think that Calculator from FFT should be mentioned under Sage because it can learn and use all of the magic in the game (except for Summon Magic). I'll go ahead and add it. Delete it if you'd like. But give me a reason if you do. ---Retrospectre 23:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

This and the Gambler discussion is really proving more and more the need for a debate over whether to keep this in its current list format or make it a prose article. In its current format, I really think we should avoid any "such-and-such is kind of like a such-and-such." Is this a list of defined character classes, or character traits that may be grouped under the same heading? If it's the former, then anything that needs to be qualified through the use of "like" or "could be" or anything similar cannot be included. If it's the latter, then the article needs to be rewritten, because as it stands there is no room for including anything that "is like" or "could be considered" a defined class. -RaCha'ar 01:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too many slashes.

Almost every paragraph heading is now "Something/Something else." The article looks really sloppy now, not to mention that every addition to the headings ruins the wikilinks to specific parts of the article in other articles. I propose that every article be named for just one job, the one that is the most easily recognizable category - Paladin instead of Holy Knight, Ranger instead of Hunter/Archer/Sniper/etc., and so on. Any other jobs the class is known by can be mentioned within the text of the paragraph about the job, as it already is in most places as the article stands. Any debate about this? -RaCha'ar 05:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Fixing the broken links is going to be hard, though. Also, a little bit of discussion first before deciding on which name to use? Axem Titanium 15:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Definitely, although in some cases I'd think/hope it wouldn't be too hard to figure out. The one I figure will cause the most debate is Hunter/Ranger/Archer/Insert Other Name For Ranged Class Here. I'll make a table/list of options for a straw poll later, when I'm not at work. -RaCha'ar 16:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of infrequent classes in the article

Recent additions have added classes that have appeared in three games at the most to this article. The introduction of the article specifically notes that classes that have appeared in only a couple of games are discussed in more detail in the respective game's article. I would personally really like to keep this article down to a list of the most frequent classes appearing in FF games. If it isn't going to be that way the introduction needs to be rewritten to reflect it; however, I don't see any need to include classes that don't reoccur frequently in an overall review of character classes. Thoughts? -RaCha'ar 05:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

With no response, I'm going to state here that since the article explicitly says that classes that appear only in one or two games are to be discussed on those games' pages, this article should only include character classes that recur frequently. If the class is only in two games, it does not belong in this article. Please add the information to the relevant game's page. -RaCha'ar 05:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Class Image Continuity

Going through this article, one notices that the images that have been included to represent the different character classes don't seem to have much continuity from one to the next. For a few classes, we have sprite images- then all of a sudden we're bumping into menu profile pictures, and then it cuts into using a print media picture for the Dragon Knight class, and then the Sage class... well. Can we get some agreement on how to give a more consistent reprentation of class examples? Ex-Nintendo Employee 01:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm honestly not picky. You seem to have a good idea of what should be done in terms of images here, so if you have an idea go for it.  :) I'm really not good with Wikipedia's image policies or I'd have more of an opinion. -RaCha'ar 05:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words/OR stuff

There's a hell of a lot of "so and so could be considered a Whatever Mage" stuff in this article. That kind of language and conclusion-drawing wouldn't fly anywhere else at Wikipedia, so I don't see why it should be able to here. We need to figure out whether it's even necessary to list examples of every class in every game if words like "could be considered" have to come into play in order to justify it. -RaCha'ar 05:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree. As I recall, someone have deleted a lot of such speculation a while ago, but they never learn when to stop and keep adding back all those original research fancruff. Examples should only be listed when the game itself states specificly what class it is (like in FFV, you know that there is a knight class and in FFT, there is also a knight class). The list should be kept in the shortest bulletin mode, instead of long tedious passage about why it is that class and what it does. What it does should be moved to that game's entry instead of staying here. MythSearcher 08:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What to include in this article

I want to clear this up once and for all, and I think/hope others will agree with me. Please only add characters to this article if their job class is explicitly defined in the game. For example, Cid of FFVII - I understand that he has some of the characteristics of a Dragoon, but nobody in FFVII is given a definitive job class. If the character does not have a specified class in their game, concluding that they are a specific class is original research and unreferenced speculation and does not belong in this article. Please keep that in mind when making any additions. -RaCha'ar 20:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cid Highwind

Cid IS NOT A DRAGOON. FFVII does not have character classes. His official page on Squenix's site identifies his job as Pilot. He is not a Dragoon. Do not add him to the Dragoon list. -RaCha'ar 02:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)