Talk:Eusebius of Caesarea

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Contents 1 Eusebians 2 Misinformation 3 Reader beware 4 Link policy 5 Limitations

[edit] Eusebians

I think we should clarify that the "Eusebians" mentioned here the Arian-leaning followers of Eusebius of Nicomedia, not the followers of the titular Eusebius of Caesarea. --Peter

"but with the beginning of the Arian controversies he becomes prominent. Arius appealed to him as his protector, and from a letter of Eusebius to Alexander it is evident that he aided the exiled presbyter" said Wikipedia. Bbut Socrates Scholasticus the historian says: "Eusebius in particular was a zealous defender of it [Arianism]: not he of Cæsarea, but the one who had before been bishop of the church at Berytus, and was then somehow in possession of the bishopric of Nicomedia in Bithynia." Thank you peter. So I've removed the italicized bit. Wetman 20:12, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Misinformation

• Removed: He is also supposed to have found in the records of Edessa the letters purporting to be written back and forth by its king Abgar and Jesus. He merely mentions the tradition: see Abgarus of Edessa. My many small tweaks are pretty minor. --Wetman 16:22, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reader beware

No mention of the fact that Eusebius is widely discredited as a historian, except among Christian apologists, is permissable at Wikipedia. The following sourced text quoting a respected historian has been suppressed as "too partisan to stand ":

" As Professor Michael J. Hollerich writes in Church History, Vol. 59, 1990, "Ever since Jacob Burckhardt dismissed him as "the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity," Eusebius has been an inviting target for students of the Constantinian era. At one time or another they have characterized him as a political propagandist, a good courtier, the shrewd and worldly adviser of the Emperor Constantine, the great publicist of the first Christian emperor, the first in a long succession of ecclesiastical politicians, the herald of Byzantinism, a political theologian, a political metaphysician, and a caesaropapist. It is obvious that these are not, in the main, neutral descriptions. Much traditional scholarship, sometimes with barely suppressed disdain, has regarded Eusebius as one who risked his orthodoxy and perhaps his character because of his zeal for the Constantinian establishment."

In its place we are now invited to read the unsourced "ever since Jacob Burckhardt brutally dismissed him as "the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity", a statement that has been partly subscribed by others, but by no means by all: others, while not pretending to extol his merits, have mentioned the irreplaceable value of his works"

Note how the editor affectingg such "NPOV" has not been able to resist inserting "brutally" to characterize Burckhardt—by which one may assess the authenticity of his neutrality. --Wetman 17:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Wetman: I respect both you, and the editor you are referring to here, quite a lot. I have no opinion (yet) on the relative merits of the two versions above. But knowing the editor, and knowing that he is not a native speaker of English, my first thought is that the the word "brutally" may simply be a poor choice of words, meant to describe the strength of Burckhardt's dismissal, rather than intended to be a negative judgment of his dismissal (as it would read to a native speaker). Paul August ☎ 21:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Wetman, I think that quote, if it is representative of the historiographical consensus about Eusebius, could fairly be paraphrased. But, looking up the cited article on JSTOR, you seem to have taken Hollerich's remarks completely out of context. The quote you give is part of the introductory remarks to an article whose argument is "that the standard assessment has exaggerated the importance of political themes and political motives in Eusebius's life and writings and has failed to do justice to him as a churchman and a scholar." That is to say, Hollerich was, in 1990, providing a revisionist viewpoint more sympathetic to Eusebius than the previous scholarly consensus. It seems deeply unfair to use a quote from his article as a club to further beat up on Eusebius, without even mentioning that said article is a partial defense of Eusebius. john k 08:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Just to add to it - we can't necessarily take for granted that Hollerich's summary of the consensus is accurate. At the very least, it seems likely that he is rhetorically exaggerating the extent of the anti-Eusebius consensus in order to make his own arguments seem more novel. john k 08:25, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Greetings. My name is Giovanni and I am the editor that originally enhanced this article, which I noted was originally copied in whole from a religious based textbook, and thus contained the expected bias in favor of Eusebius. In it there was no mention of important criticisms, including well-known facts concerning his practices as a historian. Indeed, in the section originally titled "His excellence and limitations" it only further spoke about his excellence, in a repetitive fashion. I was surprised at the one sided nature of the article.

In order to make it more balanced, I removed at least one clearly NPOV sentence which was simply true (found in another section--not the above "mis-information" that someone else found earlier and removed), and made this “excellence and limitations” into only "His Limitation," with the referenced quotation cited above, and some additional external links including the encyclopedia Britannica (which, btw, states as a fact that he was not a great historian and that his historical work are really apologetics. This, ofcourse, does not mention other notorious facets that implicate Eusabius in fraud. Still, I left this issue for people to read by including it in the "other links" section. After my edits, I felt it was balanced and worthy of what I expected to find in an encyclopedia, and which we do find in most other encyclopedias.

It appears there will now be some contention over which version is better? I'm new to Wikipedia, but love the idea and find it very useful. Forgive me if I'm still learning the proper protocol for resolving disputes in content. I see may have erred by simply reverting back to my version instead of seeking to find consensus here. I do think its much better as it stands now from an informative and balanced perspective. I’ll abide by what the community thinks is best as I’m sure we have all the same common goal here.

I think there will always be inherent bias in any subject and the best way to ensure a type of neutrality is to provide full disclosure of the relevant and supported issues surrounding a subject in keeping with widely accepted standards and practices among professional organizations that are experts in the respective fields. Otherwise, it is really POV, like the article I originally found that had no mention of of the fact that Eusebius is a widely discredited as a historian. Only among Christian apologists is this not mentioned, which as a group are by defintion carrying on the same axe-grinding tradition that Eusebius himself did in his time. This ofcourse is not NPOV, and Wiki is a secular Encylopeadia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.121.40.153 (talk • contribs) . on 07:59, January 5, 2006 (UTC)

Hi Giovanni. I'm the evil POV-pusher ;-) I don't think that anybody reasonable can accuse you of wanting to edit a so partisan text: a big problem of Wikipedia is that many (maybe most) Christianity-related articles have been built with the Catholic Encyclopaedia, the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge and the Dictionary of Christian Biography, all written by good Christians about a century ago. To this must be added that legions of Christian and anti-Christian apologist are roaming around these articles, a good reason to explain why I generally try to keep at large from this period. Going to Eusebius, nobody really doubts he was a quite mediocre historian, and I think I kept that clear when I edited your contribution: but one count is to say that is scholarship was no great thing and his works have a mainly apologetic intent, one that to accuse him of being a liar, as is easy to make him appear with the use of highly selective citations. In particular, I must confess I found hard to stomach: "Much traditional scholarship, sometimes with barely suppressed disdain, has regarded Eusebius as one who risked his orthodoxy and perhaps his character because of his zeal for the Constantinian establishment". It all to easy to awnser that Eusebius was a Semi-Arian because he believed in it, and is being attacked for this. And by the way, what is "traditional scholarship"? Modern scholars may criticise him for his scholarship, but certainly not having risked his "orthodoxy".

Obviously Giovanni,I can't pretend to be neutral, because as you rightly said, nobody can pretend to be, and NPOV is only utopia. To conclude, why don't you log-in and take a username: it will make you able to partecipate to all wiki activities. With this I'm finished. Bye :-) Aldux 12:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Having read john k objection above, if what he says is correct, then it does seem to me that the Hollerich quote is being used out of context, I wonder if the following might be a more balanced version of the "Limitations" section:

His limitations

The limitations of Eusebius could be said to flow from his position as the first court appointed Christian theologian in the service of the Constantine Roman Empire. Although Church historians were able to copy him, Eusebius is generally not considered a great historian. His treatment of heresy, for example, is inadequate, and he knew very little about the Western church. His historical works are really apologetics. Eusebius, in his Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2, reminds us, "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

In his Praeparatio evangelica (xii, 31), Eusebius has a section on the use of fictions (pseudos) as a "medicine", which may be "lawful and fitting" to use [1]. With that in mind, it is still difficult to assess Eusebius' conclusions and veracity by confronting him with his predecessors and contemporaries, for texts of previous chroniclers, notably Papias, whom he denigrated, and Hegesippus, on whom he relied, have disappeared; they survive largely in the form of the quotes of their work that Eusebius selected and thus they are to be seen only through the lens of Eusebius.

These and other issues have invited controversy. For example, Jacob Burckhardt has dismissed Eusebus as "the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity". Burckhardt is not alone in holding such a view. However, Professor Michael J. Hollerich thinks such criticisms go to far. Writing in "Church History" (Vol. 59, 1990), he says that ever since Burckhardt, "Eusebius has been an inviting target for students of the Constantinian era. At one time or another they have characterized him as a political propagandist, a good courtier, the shrewd and worldly adviser of the Emperor Constantine, the great publicist of the first Christian emperor, the first in a long succession of ecclesiastical politicians, the herald of Byzantinism, a political theologian, a political metaphysician, and a caesaropapist. It is obvious that these are not, in the main, neutral descriptions. Much traditional scholarship, sometimes with barely suppressed disdain, has regarded Eusebius as one who risked his orthodoxy and perhaps his character because of his zeal for the Constantinian establishment." He concludes that "the standard assessment has exaggerated the importance of political themes and political motives in Eusebius's life and writings and has failed to do justice to him as a churchman and a scholar".

While many have shared Burckhartdt's assessment, others, while not pretending to extol his merits, have acknowledged the irreplaceable value of his works.

What does everyone think? Paul August ☎ 20:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it's almost perfect. I only have some doubts with Although Church historians were able to copy him. This is quite an understatement: Eusebius' historical works (Church history and Chronicon) were not only used, but had an immense influence, making him possibly the most influential historian for the Middle Ages. The following church historians (Sozomenus, Socrates, Theodoretus) all had Eusebius as their model; and Jerome translated his Chronicon, proposing the model for the medieval world chronicles. But maybe his influence for posterity should be treated in a separate section that could be titled "His influence" or "His legacy". For now we could change where is Although Church historians were able to copy him to Notwithstanding the great influence of his works. What do the other think about this? Aldux 22:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I owe Aldux a public apology: my fuse is simply too short, and my insinuation of disingenuous language was unjustified. Once individuals have been canonized, a machinery comes into play that tends to suppress all criticism: thus I'm over-sensitized in this area. Aldux's point about the three old-fashioned sources used in Wikipedia articles is well-taken: I constantly use them myself, trying to limit my use to what is factual. You all have really improved this passage. Perhaps John Kenney can give us a better-rounded picture of Hollerich's assessment of Eusebius' reputation. Of only a handful of historians is their subsequent reputation as important as it is with Eusebius. --Wetman 04:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

No problem, Wetman :-) Aldux 10:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this passage sounds close to perfect. The only part that I suggest is to keep the original "Eusebius was not himself a great historian." I think this fact is not in dispute among historians, and is more honest and direct than the language, "generally considred..." Nonetheless, it still says everything I thought was originally missing, and yet is now presented in a much better way overall. Thank you Paul, Wetman, Aldux, and John for making this happen. This yet another fine example of wikipedia in action: many minds being better than one as we place checks and balances on our own biases, forcing a far better product in the end. Giovanni33 13:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I have edited the main article page to reflect the above proposals, and removed the POV tag on the section. Giovanni33 00:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Wetman that the entire article on Eusebius is heavily biased in favour of the "orthodox" point of view. Around the time of Eusebius, there was a raging battle between the Gnostic Christians and the Literalist Christians. Of course, as in all battles, the victor gets to write the history. So, in this case, Eusebius took on the task of writing a history of the early Church that made it appear that the Literalists were there first, and that the Gnostics later perverted the message, but were overcome by the "orthodox" believers i.e. those who followed the teachings of the bishops. Eusebius himself admitted that he included only the material that supported his point of view and excluded anything contrary except where it was unavoidable. Thus, we have the foundation of Church History that has prevailed ever since. Never mind that Eusebius was a noted forger. Never mind that the interpolations in Josephus were quite likely by the hand of Eusebius himself. Eusebius had a task - to prove that the Literalist Church was the original one, and he certainly wasn't bothered by any evidence to the contrary. I have no doubt that the received version of Church History, built on the foundation laid by Eusebius, merely continues the fraud and deception. --Williambanting 08:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link policy

Hi Adux. I did not know about that policy about my Britanical link. Can you point me to where it says that a link, such as to Britanica, can not be used unless it's a free link, even though its available free as a cached on a google search? Thanks. I left this message on your talk page, also. Giovanni33 01:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Limitations

The limitations section seems to be mainly about the accusations of dishonesty, which is a pity. I've augmented this, and qualified the somewhat out-of-context quotes. I hope that this doesn't upset anyone? (those quotes in the context that we had are very misleading, if you read the context around them). I've added a bit on allegations about forged quotations in the Vita, but I don't have a reference. Anyone? Roger Pearse 20:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)