Talk:Dimebag Darrell
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[edit] Dimebag Murdered
Yeah, that's what I've been reading..what a loss to the metal world. Another band member dead, too Someone walked onto stage & started shooting....he's also dead 5 dead, 2 injured---1 critical You can read article updated 45 min ago.....nbc4i.com
He's gone, I'm near Detroit and the cops were talking about it on the police bands.
The death date on the wiki-page isn't correct.
[edit] Local news story
http://www.nbc4i.com/news/3983630/detail.html
(It's true.)
RIP
I cant believe hes dead, Its incredible, We will never forget him. I believe either bob zilla or pat lachman died with him, since they are close on stage.
Suggestions on messageboards that it's a publicity stunt, though I'm unconvinced TBH. It seems unlikely so many news agencies would be fooled
This really needs a revert. It currently contains a bio of Dave Mustaine Tom k&e 13:55, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Not just Dimebag was killed
Is the death of the two audience members any less important? I suppose it doesen't matter if you die and your not famous. Only stars get into heaven. Sorry Dimebag, you deserved better.
- I hope it's clear that Wikipedia is a work of reference, and the other individuals, though their deaths were just as tragic, are not notable for individual inclusion. Wikipedia is not a general obituary file. --Dhartung | Talk 14:06, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- You might want to note tho that Nathan Bray (one othe audience members who got shot) ran to the stage after Dimebag fell and tried to perform CPR, and got also shot. A martyr. // Gargaj 13:00, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)
[edit] Photos of those involved in the shooting
Pix have been posted on the NBC website. I don't know what restrictions are on use of these images, but here are the links:
Nathan Gale http://images.ibsys.com/2004/1209/3984911_200X150.jpg
Officer James D. Niggemeyer http://images.ibsys.com/2004/1209/3985007_200X150.jpg
Erin Halk http://images.ibsys.com/2004/1209/3985283_200X150.jpg
TimothyPilgrim 20:28, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
- These are wire service images or digitizations and are not republishable under the Wikipedia license terms. They should not be used in the article. --Dhartung | Talk 14:07, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Killer dead too?
Didn't a police officer shoot and kill the gunman? If so, how is his picture posted above? Something is wrong
The police officer did shoot and kill the gunman...if you think about it, his picture was taken before that happened.
Yes, the killer was killed. The picture was taken beforehand
[edit] vinnie paul
Was he the hostage or the gunman? The article is unclear, and I don't want to edit it since I have no clue myself.[[User:GregNorc|GregNorc|Talk]]
Vinnie Paul *may* have been the hostage, but I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else.
Obvioulsy Vinnie Paul, being a band member and already on-stage was not the gunman, plus the gunman is NAMED in the article. Selphie 11:12, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)**
For the record, Vinne Paul is Darrell's brother
Please find a source that the hostage was Vinnie Paul. Saying "the hostage may or may not have been Vinnie Paul" is just pointless. Saying "some sources report that the hostage was Vinnie Paul" is okay if you can give a source, but so far I have found zero newspaper articles saying that was the case, but I've found a few that specifically say "audience member hostage". — [[User:Flamurai|flamuraiTM]] 12:34, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
I can't remember where said it - its been over a week since i read it but it ws eitehr nbc4i in America or the BBC. or it might have been someone else!! Selphie 12:50, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) **
- There were reports at first that another band member was killed, and most of the speculation was that it was Vinnie Paul. In the end, it seems Vinnie was escorted off the stage before any harm could come to him. Possibly due to Jeff Thompson's efforts. No one else in the band was harmed. Early reports may have suggested otherwise. THe hostage was an audience member. MrHate 23:50, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
Vinnie Paul was not the hostage. John "Kat" Brooks was
[edit] John Lennon
Does it really matter that it was the anniversary of John Lennon's death? I mean, I know he was important and everything but there's probably nothing in it other than coincidence.
Selphie 11:09, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)**
You're right. It's distracting and has nothing to do with this tragedy. I'm deleting it. --JamesB3 12:26, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I included it because it's an interesting piece of information that IS related. Both incidents were the murder, no, more like execution, of a highly respected musician because of a derranged person. They were both targeted, not killed in a random fashion, and on the same date. I'm re-including it. TimothyPilgrim 14:46, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
I don't want to get into any kind of spat of deleting and reverting...I still don't think the item fits, but my main problem was the wording of the article implied there was a deliberate connection between the 2 murders. I changed the wording of your revision to make sure people know there was no connection beyond the date. --JamesB3 15:31, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I'm cool with that. TimothyPilgrim 18:05, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
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- It's a notable coincidence (e.g. music magazines and websites will in future mark Dec. 8 for both persons). But it's awkward and distracting inline, so I moved it to a footnote following the style in Wikipedia:Footnote. --Dhartung | Talk 14:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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I don't think the date of Lennon's death is even relevent. Dimebag was killed on the anniversary of lots of things. As there is no connection, I feel it should be removed. Sanguinus 20:04, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- There is a connection: both musicians were murdered by fans. That's rare enough that it merits inclusion. --Dhartung | Talk 19:57, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I think we should mention that it was on the same day as the Lennon murder. Dimebag's assailant may have chosen the day because of its significance. The Columbine High School massacre article contains speculation about why April 20th was chosen, yet there is no evidence that the date was chosen for any particular reason. Kingturtle 20:57, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- The note (although I didn't put it there, I can't sort it myself) should actually refer to the last sentance, that is an extra piece of information saying John Lennonn was killed o nte same day also. It's not a major piece of information relating to this article now, is it?
- The bit of information concerning the anniversary of John Lennon's death is slightly relavent, but is only incidental to the main article. The footnote approach was in keeping with Wikipedia style, however, since some people object, I am going to try a whole new approach.
- that looks pretty good Selphie 09:28, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) **
[edit] The Iconoclast
"William Grim, a conservative writer for The Iconoclast, made an article applauding Abbott's death and spoke negatively about heavy metal and its "sub-human" followers. This was immediately met with criticism, not only from the heavy metal community, but from outsiders."
I think this little editorial comment at the end is a little inappropriate, as well as unencyclopaedic. Especially considering the article in question was in fact, a satire... not the malicious document from hell that everyone seems to be making it out to be.
(1/3): Actually, I and others who've looked at the site think that the author meant what he wrote - that he was using humor to make a point AGAINST heavy metal.
look, the article is obviously a parody -- and furthermore this kind of thing wouldn't be encyclopedic information anyway... nobody looking for information on "dimebag darrell" would be enriched in any way by reading this. so i'm deleting it.--Bangadrian 03:11, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sure, I can buy the non-encyclopedic argument. Just saying that just because it's humorous doesn't mean its message wasn't intended.
[edit] Musical influences
Musical influences are listed twice in this article Pogue 06:28, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC) William Grim is obviously some sort of uneducated bafoon. Ridiculing Dimebag Darrel's death is not only immoral, but down right Disgusting! Dimebag Darrel was not only a monumental influence on heavy metal, but on all the people he touched and inspired. He was a true musician and his music will live on forever for the sole reason that he was a tremendous musician and a inspiring human being.
Anyone else remember Dime talking about Blues Saraceno as a major influence? Abbott mentioned this in a Guitar for the Practicing Musician article circa 1995. It seems like this should be included in musical influences--Dime wore a plaid patch tattoo in honor of the guy.
quote: "... and later influenced guitar idols such as Joe Satriani." What nonsense is that?? It´s wishful thinking or spin to me. This needs to be removed!!--84.203.1.127 00:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Too Much Focus On Killing
I've noticed that the section on Dimebag Darrell's killing is easily the largest. This doesn't seem right to me.
I realise there are separate pages about Pantera and Damageoplan, but I still think the page should be mostly about his life and music.
[edit] Musicians of the Political Right stub
Could someone please verify this? Thanks, --Danteferno 23:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
- I don't really think it belongs. Muya 03:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dean Guitars
Dean is not out of buisiness...
[edit] Guitar Tuning- too much credit given to Dimebag
Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath was tuning his guitar down to C# as early as 1971 when recording the 'Master of Reality' album, which gave him his doom-laden guitar sound. I don't think its fair to promote Dimebag as popularising this practice, Iommi has been far more influential than Dimebag in the rock world. Listen to 'Into the Void'- heavy as hell! Pantera covered a couple of Sabbath tracks, which highlights that band's influence.
Good point. I'm rewording it. --Rp81 17:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Roger Caron
A Google search reveals Roger Caron to be a gun nut who actually thinks it's appropriate to bring legal firearms to metal shows. The possibility of accident at a show as rowdy as this one is extraordinary, and most people wouldn't go to concerts (especially metal concerts, for God's sake) if other attendees were carrying. The paragraph he (or some other bozo) included is disgusting, irrelevant, and totally wrong, and guess what I just did to it? SluggoOne 18:40, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Your delete is inconsistent with the NPOV. Gale's rampage was ended when Niggemeyer brought a legal firearm into the show and used it lawfully - the Franklin County grand jury cited in the article commended him. Clearly the prohibition on illegal firearms didn't work in this case - only the bad guy had one until police arrived. The deleted paragraph was factual and cited it's sources - you deleted it because you wanted to censor ideas that conflict with your own. Why suppress cited facts? Caron's disarmament is an important part of the course of events and one that unfortunately has been omitted or suppressed from traditional media outlets. :Marknoble 19:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
1) "Helplessly" adds a completely biased POV. 2) Niggemeyer didn't prove the "no firearms rule" was a bad idea, because he only attended the show after Gale started shooting. Had he attended the show as a fan instead of an on-duty police officer, he would not have been allowed to bring in his police-issue shotgun; hence, Caron was not unfairly treated compared to Niggemeyer, as you seen to imply. 3) Again, it's worth pointing out that the only firsthand source of the paragraph is Caron himself, who honestly thinks it appropriate to bring firearms to metal concerts. Nobody who was there backs up his claim that he could have killed Gale, and his amateur gun enthusiast nature seems to work against that claim.
Let's play a game. It's called "Every time one of us notices our changes reversed, we'll reverse them again." SluggoOne 16:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
1) Could he help? Nope. Why? He had been disarmed. The comment adds no bias. Omitting any mention of the facts and censoring them *does* introduce bias.
2) I never said Niggemeyer had anything to do with "no firearms". I did point out that when a good guy with a gun arrived, the attack was abruptly ended. If the good guy already there had been armed, the death/injury toll may have been reduced. Shotguns are not allowed under CCW law, nor are they a good firearm for use in crowds, so it's silly to even suggest that Niggemeyer would have brought it with him off-duty. Had Niggemeyer carried his sidearm concealed in an off-duty capacity, he would have been breaking the law - so while Caron was treated equally, banning either of them from carrying wouldn't have reduced the casualties.
3) Dispatch reporter Goodenow confirmed Carons story as required by the Dispatch editorial staff. Your assertions that the only source is Caron and that nobody backs his claim are baseless and unsupported. I am aware of others who were there that night and assert that Caron was indeed physically in a position that he may have been able to intervene. I also know that the state does not issue CHL licenses to people who cannot demonstrate proficiency with a firearm. There's no such thing as an "amateur gun enthusiast", so that can't possibly be a factor.
Rather than get into a reversion war, why not use the talk page to develop a line or two that accurately represents the fact in a way that you feel is unbiased? Marknoble 13:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think a lot of the issue here is not whether Caron was where he was - there seems to be adequate sources to support that - but the contention that he could have prevented the incident. Personally, without a much better source, I don't think the paragraph as it was is warranted, especially as it uses emotive words like "helpless". Marknoble's right, though - try to develop a compromise rather than just reverting each other. Perhaps make light of the controversy. --Scott Wilson 18:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
To clarify, I'm not asserting that Caron could have prevented the incident, only that an opportunity to lessen the magnitude of the carnage was prevented. Caron was there and had the training to intervene if only the law hadn't disarmed him. Marknoble 15:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
But do you have a source that says that? Otherwise, it's original research. --Scott Wilson 12:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
A source that says that Caron was trained to intervene? In order to obtain a CCW license in Ohio, all applicants must "physically demonstrate competency" before a license is issued. [1] The Dispatch verified that Caron was licensed. Do we need a source on Officer Niggemeyer's training too? Marknoble 21:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this is even still an issue, but the only reason I can see to include a statement about Roger Caron is to promote the idea that guns should be allowed in concerts, which has no place in this article.--LifeEnemy 13:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] remaining silent throughout the shooting
According to the external link at the bottom of the page this is incorrect, as it states;
"Gale reportedly pinned Brooks to the floor and the stage technician said that he could feel the gun pressed against head, while the attacker shouted "Don't move, don't move." " 67.5.159.173 05:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- So correct it. 71.252.220.32 12:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is it neccecery to include whatever criticism people had on his technichal abillities???
[edit] Back of the head?
This page says Gale was shot in the back of the head, Nathan Gale says he was shot in the face and cites a Behind the Music episode (which isn't easy to check, and sounds bogus since BTM isn't the kind of show normally playing unedited footage of people getting shot).
Can anyone verify either, or should that aspect simply be edited out? Riotgear 09:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] origin of nickname
The article should explain how he got his nickname. The name is somewhat confusing b/c from what I understand Darrell was neither a pothead nor a dealer.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 23:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Technical Abilities
The article criticizes Dimebag for showing little technical knowledge in some areas...unfairly I think. Here's a vid of him playing all sorts of stuff even before Pantera hit it big...if you can play Spanish Fly, you have _amazing_ tapping ability, which is something the article criticizes him for. Anyway, something to think about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbehbt_yLpo
[edit] Technical Abilites
I deleted a paragraph here about some of the "criticism" he recieves for not using certain technical abilities. This does strike me as appropriate Encyclopedia information to compare his technical ability to other guitarists and state random people's opinions, such as how some of his solos are "filler". This just does not belong here. I left the other stuff though like his unique tuning, because it outlines a style of guitar playing he utilized and embodies actual information rather than a bunch of random opinions. Of course, the rest of this section could be disputed as well, but that's up to the rest of you. I just deleted what I thought wasn't necessary.
