Talk:David Myatt

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Talk:David Myatt/archive1

Contents 1 Greek translations 2 Rumors, Libel and NPOV 3 en:David Myatt 4 References 5 Myatt's Islam and The Numinous Way 6 The Personal View of Users 7 Myatt's Islam 8 Amazon Link

[edit] Greek translations

His "translations" are published on dubious geocities sites, amazon has no entry on his alleged works, copyright issues are dealt with by claims of email notification. There's no proof the he even speaks greek, he could've paraphrased prior translations. There's no peer review, no print publication, no authoritative info on his work's factuality or its quality. Mentioning his translations relies merely on him claiming authorship using some pseudonym. This should be deleted until proven true. --tickle me 13:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

re: SlimVirgin's revert
There's nothing wrong using footnotes: "Footnotes are an excellent way to cite sources...", but you're an admin owning the article, have your way. However, what's the point in restoring broken links like:

"...still supports neo-Nazi groups and contributes to their websites. This letter is probably some kind of bluff in their favour." [1]"

Besides you wholesale revert deleted my changes on the dubious translation claims. Why don't you at least add ^{[citation needed]} to it? --tickle me 03:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

• Incorrect - copies of his Greek translations are in the British Library, as they were first published in written form. This has been discussed before, here. Check out their ISBN. 65.57.106.34 04:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

• • Re what tickle wrote - you are making various allegations about Myatt here; presenting your opinion. The article is not the place for this. Furthermore, as re the Anon edit above, Myatt's Greek translations have been published, and copies are indeed in the British Library. They have been out of print for some years, which is why you cannot find them by doing a Web search on the Amazon site. Coolmoon 04:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

• The translations are not dubious, as you claim, and in fact were used for several years by various Colleges in the US. 65.57.106.34 04:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Please quote and reply, wedging replies into my post is vandalism. The ISBN doesn't return anything that would prove David Myatt's authorship. There's a book called "The 'Agamemnon' of Aeschylus : a radical interpretation, translation and commentary", the author is one "D W Myatt" and yes, it has been published. So what? There's no proven connection between that nym and Myatt except silly port5.com and geocities.com websites without whois confirmation on his ownership. Even if that was confirmed he could have self published the books. All we have in this regard is his word via unconfirmed means.

• "were used for several years by various Colleges in the US..."
• "copies of his Greek translations are in the British Library"

There's no evidence presented at all. What's going on here? SlimVirgin, would you bother replying? --tickle me 05:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not following what you're saying, Tickle. First, I reverted your ref addition because this page uses embedded links and it looks a bit odd to have just one footnote. Regarding the books, they're available on Amazon. Are you saying you doubt that is really him? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

In response to Mr/Miss/Ms Tickle-Me. Myatt's full name is David Wulstan Myatt - hence DW Myatt. DW Myatt is David Myatt - and has published works under both David Myatt and DW Myatt, for example his poetry (for which refer to Ms Julie Wright's Myatt site, for example). Furthermore, since his conversion to Islam, Myatt has written and published articles using both the names Abdul Aziz and Abdul-Aziz Ibn Myatt. You are just stating your opinion that the DW Myatt of Greek translation and poetry fame, is not David Myatt, former neo-nazi and Islamist, even though if you go to the British Library and check the published Greek texts, you will find the name "David Myatt" on them. You seem to have some aversion to Myatt, of the Searchlight kind, methinks, and so insist of trying to rubbish the man - possibly because you disagree with his political or religious views, or both. May I suggest you write your opinions about Myatt elsewhere and observe Wiki NPOV? Coolmoon 10:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

• If I may add my 2 cents here. Myatt's Greek translations - those of DW Myatt - have been, and are being, used by the following Colleges and academics, among others. Prof. Dusan Pajin; Professor Michael Lienesch; Sogang Uni, Korea; University of Reading; Rio Hondo College; Suffolk University (USA). Also, Myatt's translations of Sappho are highly regarded by some gay women. Cloudnajafi 10:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin: "they're available on Amazon". I can't verify this, a search turns up all kinds of Myatts: amazon search=Myatt - but no David Wulstan Myatt or related permuations/variations. So far there's only one ISBN that returns only *one* result for the author: worldcatlibraries.org. "Thormynd", the publisher given, which is likely "Thormynd Press" to be found by googling, seemingly hasn't even a website of his own, which needn't cost a dollar per month. A google search returns 248 results, from which only 92 are genuine, the rest are duplicates. From these 92 most are wikiclones, angelfire sites or the like. No address is given, except for a PO BOX in Shropshire, sometimes detailed to Shrewsbury, a Shropshire town - which happens to be in the Midlands, where Myatt is supposed to live. This makes it more than likely that he self published the book. All we have in this regard is his word via unconfirmed means and some wikipedians who don't bother to make their claims verifiable according to WP:V. There's no indication *at all* that he knows greek and that he did the translations. I fail to see why wikipedia should publish his boastings as long as they are not confirmed. --tickle me 16:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Tickle, here are Myatt's publications on Amazon. It doesn't matter if they're self-published (and I don't know whether they are) because we're not using them as sources or listing them anywhere other than in his own article. See WP:V and WP:RS. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

In reply to "Tickle Me" again - please stop pushing your own prejudice, bias, against Myatt so obvious in your phrases like "his boastings" and your unproven assumption that he does not know Greek. You have ignored the fact that academics use his Greek translations so that even if they were publishd by him, they have been found to be useful and accepted by academics. You seem to be pushing your own agenda here - just who are you, attacking someone while hiding behind an anonymous name? I might write that there is *no indication at all* that you have even read his Greek translations or know anything at all about him other than what you have read on the Internet. Now, pace - for had you taken the trouble to read his now out of print published Greek translations, you would have seen the notes, often in Greek, in them. Books, BTW, go out of print, and accordingly may not be listed by Amazon. Please do try to keep NPOV. Coolmoon 05:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I didn't expect amazon.com to yield other results than amazon.co.uk, that was a real blunder. However I didn't contend the existence of the books in the first place but the factuality of his translations. Would we write that he has a PhD or discovered America if he claimed so? It is claimed here that they're used in academe, I found some mentions online in this regard and will try to get specific information. --tickle me 07:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No worries, Tickle. There seems no doubt that he's published translations, which is pretty interesting in itself even if they're not very good (and I'm not saying they're not; just that I don't know either way). We don't comment on the quality of them, so I see no harm in leaving it in, though it'd be good if we could say more. If they really have been used as textbooks, that would be extremely interesting, and might even merit being used in the intro. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Tickle: why are you still making an assumption - without evidence - about Myatt? You make claims about his Greek translations - and it is therefore for you to provide some evidence for your claim. It does seem you have no evidence and are just putting forward your view regarding Myatt. Why is that? What is your agenda, in respect of Myatt? It does seem you bias is rather showing and that yu are on some kind of crusade, here. It is interesting that you do not reply to my comments. Coolmoon 05:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Results of my inquiries on D. Myatt's translations. --tickle me 15:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Tickle Me. Have you read Myatt's Greek translations? Seems you're on something of an anti-Myatt crusade here. Please inform us why. 81.131.120.63 06:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

A point well-made in respect of user Tickle. I might also suggest Tickle read Myatt's poetry - and make some comment on them, or try to debunk them. Although I disagree with a great deal Myatt has written prior to his reversion to Islam, I do accept he is an interesting individual who deserves to be studied in an unbiased way. If Professor George Michael can say that Myatt "has arguably done more that any other theorist to develop a synthesis of the extreme right and Islam," then Myatt deserves some attention. Tickle and others like him who present their rather prejudiced views about Myatt might not be aware of Myatt's growing influence - or they may well be, which might explain their political attitude and attempts to debunk him. This recent comment, from an Internet forum: "Myatt is a very intelligent man. I believe he has a deeper purpose with everything he does. There is nothing is his writings about NS I disagree with. І соuld саll myѕelf а Мyаttіаn." Coolmoon 17:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

OT: some trolling. Mr. Myatt, I had no intentions of ever reacting, but methinks this is funny, so here goes. Of course, it'll cease to be funny once google catches up with this talk page... Besides, "Myatt is a very intelligent man...": That's one bold stance, at least not confirmed by this page. But hell, you don't let loose for sure. Best: --tickle me 02:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

• Tickle - you still have not replied as to why you are on such an anti-Myatt Crusade and why you continue to ignore Wiki's NPOV. Is it for political reasons of your own? Peoples views regarding Myatt differ widely - you cannot, it seems, keep your own biased views out from your contributions here - and why do you seem to suggest that anyone who does not agree with you might be Myatt? A biased tactic, it would seem. 81.131.3.244 04:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rumors, Libel and NPOV

Comments (in this instance by Tickle Me) such as "He's a notorious liar..." which were appended to an edit, are not suitable, and go against Wiki NPOV. You, Tickle, are making an unproven accusation, as you have done before - please keep your personal opinions out of Wikipedia. You offer no proof for your malicious and libellous statement. Slim Virgin - please do something about this as it is surely against Wiki policy that someone presents their biased views and makes such libellous statements. Previously we had used Richard0 making such claims. Now we have Tickle. Tomorrow, who knows? Coolmoon 04:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to the Final Conflict pamphlet - it is not a book; and contains only allegations and rumours, not evidence, as well as being a neo-nazi and racist publication distributed by a few people on the neo-nazi fringe. 81.131.12.24 05:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I quote - <quote>Jimmy Wales has said: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." </quote> Maybe this can be applied here to comments by users such as TickleMe? NPOV is important! 81.131.86.246 18:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] en:David Myatt

Prof. Dusan Pajin (dpajin@afrodita.rcub.bg.ac.yu)
Incidence:
 http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~dpajin/text/women.htm
Reaction to inquiry:
 No reply

Professor Michael Lienesch (lienesch@imap.unc.edu, amerstud.unc.edu)
Incidence:
 none
Reaction to inquiry:
 Subject: Re: question regarding the alleged use of David Myatt's
              Greek translations at UNC
 Editor: I have no knowledge of translations of Greek classics by David Myatt. If such
 translations exist, I do not recall having ever assigned any. Michael Lienesch 

Sogang University, Korea (ansonjae@sogang.ac.kr, hompi.sogang.ac.kr)
Incidence:
 http://www.sogang.ac.kr/~anthony/Classics/Antigone.htm
 http://www.sogang.ac.kr/~anthony/Classics/Oedipus.htm
 http://www.sogang.ac.kr/~anthony/Classics/Agamem.htm
Reaction to inquiry:
 Subject: Re: question on David Myatt's translations from the Greek language
              you refer to on your site
 Hello,
 Thank you for your message. I linked to the translations in question several
 years ago since I found them interesting and potentially useful for students,
 they are at least lively. I cannot vouch for their academic value or their
 accuracy as translations since I know no Greek. 
 Sincerely
 An Sonjae

University of Reading (classics@reading.ac.uk)
Incidence:
 http://www.rdg.ac.uk/classics/Link/index.php?view=Other%20Poetry.csv
 (Link to http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4979/sappho.html)
Reaction to inquiry:
 No reply

Rio Hondo College
Incidence:
 http://library.riohondo.edu/Research_Help/Citing_Sources/MLA_Style_Online.htm
Reaction to inquiry:
 No reply

Suffolk University (grichman@suffolk.edu)
Incidence:
 http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Asuffolk.edu+%22DW+Myatt
 http://www.cas.suffolk.edu/richman/IS111/Model.htm
 http://www.cas.suffolk.edu/richman/IS111/
 http://www.cas.suffolk.edu/is/111anthology.htm
 http://www.cas.suffolk.edu/is/burnstein111mwf.htm
Reaction to inquiry:
 Subject: Re: does Suffolk University use the works of David Myatt
              in its curricula?
 Dear xxxxxxxxxxxx,

 We do indeed use Mr. Myatt's translations, but neither I or my 
 colleagues know ancient Greek, so we can't evaluate the 
 translations. The translations, however, are not appreciably 
 different from other translations of Sappho.

 [...]

Gerald Richman, Coordinator, Integrated Studies Program
Suffolk University
Beacon Hill
Boston, MA 02114

[edit] References

When providing citations, could people please supply the page number if it's a book? Also, there's no need to use the cite templates, as they only make more work: just write <ref>give the full citation, then close the ref like this </ref>. If you think the ref might be used again, give it a name: <ref name=Smith>give the full citation, then close </ref>. The second time it's used, all we have to write is <ref name=Smith/>. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The section below has been unsourced for a long time, so I'm moving it here. We need full citations of third-party sources, articles, paper, or books, with page numbers if the latter. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

When Charlie Sargent of Combat 18 was arrested [when was he arrested], later receiving a life sentence for murder in 1998, Myatt took the leadership position of the "Sargent loyalist faction" in the internecine conflicts within Combat 18. ^{[citation needed]} Myatt also founded and led the neo-Nazi Reichsfolk organization, [Kaplan, J. (1998) 115 ; Kaplan, J. (ed) (2000) 216, 512] and founded and was the first leader of the National-Socialist Movement. [Goodrik-Clarke, 2002, p.50]

• Hi SlimVirgin - and thanks for the additional references from Professor George Michael's book which added some much needed context.Coolmoon 03:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• • I have reverted to previous edit - removing my most recent edit (Oops!) - considering the need for verifiable sources and remembering a previous now archived discussion with SlimVirgin regarding not updating the article using material from personal websites. Coolmoon 04:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. :-) ^(talk) 06:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

My edit has given Myatt's view in respect of the comments made by George Michael since this is only fair and restores in my opinion the NPOV. In respect of sources, I have quoted the article in The Times of London newspaper, one article from Myatt's personal website, and one article from the Islam OnLine website, which is one of the largest and most respected Islamic sites online. Regarding using as a source an article from Myatt's own site, I do think this is allowable according to the Wikipedia guidelines, given that the article is about Myatt, and the quote from George Michael makes a specific point, which Myatt himself disagrees with and has contradicted publicly several times in the past year or more. In addition, according to the Wikipedia Guidelines, "Material from self-published sources, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves." Cloudnajafi 05:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I added another reference - also from Myatt's personal site, although note please that this interview has also appeared elsewhere on the web, for example at http://revolutioninternational.blogspot.com/2006/03/interview-with-abdul-aziz-ibn-myatt.html and was also quoted at length in the article in The Times of London newspaper. Cloudnajafi 06:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi CloudNajafi. [Cool name, BTW!] If you care to look at the archive here, you'll see a discussion between myself and SlimVirgin regarding changing the article when a personal site is updated. If you also check out her contribs you'll see she is on the ball regarding Wikipedia policy. In the discussion I had with her, I had to admit she was correct, and I was mistaken. Thus, I don't believe you can do what you have done. Therefore, I now have reverted to the previous edit, removing your recent edit of the Myatt article here. If your assertion is correct, then when we have a verifiable source, not a personal website, this assertion can be included. Also, I can't find two of your references (URL's) on the Myatt site. Coolmoon 07:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I have read the archive, and with due respect, Coolmoon, I disagree and have put back my edit which you removed. I think it's important to give Myatt's version here, and using The Times article is a good, credible source. Did you read the quotation I gave about using self-published sources? This applies here, I think, so that my edit gives a balanced view in line with Wikipedia policy. If George Michael's view is given without any comment it unbalances the section, and seems to label Myatt a Murtad, which is a very serious matter, and not to be taken at all lightly. Cloudnajafi 22:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

OK then Coolmoon, i agree. Thanks for the advice. I've read a lot more of the guidelines and policies here, and I'll undo my changes, restoring your edit. I've also checked out Mr Myatt's sites and those of his supporters and fans. His Islam site (if it was his) has been removed, and his personal site (linked to in the main article here) contains many new articles and items (May through to July, this year) suggestive of his withdrawal from Islam. You're right as well about two of the links I gave - they're dead as of today. Cloudnajafi 06:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Cloudnajafi! Re your comments about Myatt's Islam: I have added a new section on this Talk page and given a quote from one of his new essays.Coolmoon 07:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• I have removed from here some anon and negative remarks about Myatt, in line with the Wikipedia guidelines quoted at the beginning of this Talk page, which guidelines I shall add here to make the point - "This article should be edited in accordance with the policies and guidelines outlined in Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should not be posted to articles or talk pages. If you find any, please remove it immediately." Coolmoon 11:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Myatt's Islam and The Numinous Way

In view of the recent discussion with Cloudnajafi on this Talk page, I give here a quote taken from one of Myatt's newer articles on his personal website. The articles appear to indicate his rejection of Islam and a change of heart. These newer articles further seem to indicate a development of what he calls The Numinous Way, toward a Buddhist like compassion. Those interested might read articles such as http://www.davidmyatt.info/compassion.html and http://www.davidmyatt.info/recent_writings_numen.html. Here is the quote I mentioned taken from http://www.davidmyatt.info/no_ideology.html -

"One of my mistakes was to hope that Islam might offset the lack of numinosity so evident in the modern, urbanized, West, and that it might undermine the materialism, the abstractions, of the West in a quite practical way and so enable the world, and our own folk, to be free of these abstractions, and free of the physical tyranny, the world order, the world-government, the supporters of such abstractions were creating. But this just encouraged suffering; it created more suffering. It distanced me - and others - from the numen; from what is ethical, right, honourable, compassionate. My intentions may have seemed, to me, to be good, and noble, but that was no excuse. Yet I made it an excuse for some time, unwilling to rigorously apply the ethics of The Numinous Way to what I was supporting and encouraging. In the end, I had to make some fundamental decisions, some choices - and my decision was to reform myself; to apply the ethics of The Numinous Way to everything. That is, I realized that the cessation of suffering - and everything that goes with it, such as empathy, honour, and personal love - is the most important thing: not some short or long term strategy; not some tactics to bring about some change; not some future vision, not some causal form which one might use, in the present, to bring about some allegedly "good" changes in the future. The cessation of suffering has to start in the moment; it had to be part of me, part of every individual, and that, as I tried to explain earlier, is the answer."

Such quotes from such sites should be treated with caution, in my view. Contradictory quotes - affirming Myatt's Islam - are available on several other sites, plus there is the recent article in The Times (London) newspaper, mentioned in the main Myatt article here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2149297,00.html as well as the two articles Myatt wrote this year which are quoted in that newspaper article - http://ibnmyatt.tripod.com/convert2.html and http://ibnmyatt.tripod.com/ibnmyatt_interview.html. There is also a transcript on the Islam On-Line site, also this year, of Myatt answering questions from Muslims from around the world in which he again affirms his Islam - http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=61ud64 . Here is Myatt's own transcript - http://ibnmyatt.tripod.com/replies-online.html 65.57.106.34 21:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct - such items in respect of Myatt having left Islam should be viewed with great caution, as there is no proven authorship, in this case. In the article by Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt (aka David Myatt) quoted in The Times, ibn Myatt has this to say when asked about rumors in respect of his having left Islam: "Bismillah. No, they [the rumors] are not correct. I am a Muslim, Alhamdulillah, and I shall remain a Muslim, InshaAllah." http://abdulhaqq.jeeran.com/ibnmyatt_interview.html. In a previous entry here, I wrote that is an extremely serious matter to call ibn Myatt, or any Muslim, a murtad. I shall quote what ibn Myatt himself writes regarding this matter, again quoting from one of the sources used by The Times newspaper, which, I think, makes this source a most suitable one, if not a primary source in Wikipedia terms, and therefore outweighs the unverified ones quoted here by others. ibn Myatt writes: "as I wrote in my Thinking Like a Muslim, when we undertake Shahadah - testifying to and declaring our acceptance of Islam before witnesses - we are making a binding oath of loyalty, bayah, on our honour, to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and His Messenger, Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). This is a life-long oath, loyalty unto death to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and to His Messenger, Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). If we break this oath - if we abandon the duty we have sworn to do - we are being dishonourable, and it is right that those who break such a sacred oath as this are killed. Over eight years ago, I gave this oath, and it is as binding today as it was then. Thus I cannot, and will not, InshaAllah, break this oath of loyalty." (An Interview with Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt) Cloudnajafi 22:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Personal View of Users

I have reverted to the previous edit which User TickleMe removed. This user should keep their personal views, comments and opinions about Myatt out of their edits - as per the Wikipedia guidelines regarding articles about living persons. The comments this user added seem to contradict, yet again, Wikipedia's NPOV and these guidelines. In my view, giving Myatt's opinion is quite apposite here, since his views have changed in a significant manner. Coolmoon 13:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have offended poor old 65.57.106.34. "giving Myatt's opinion is quite apposite here": Not in the least. What relevant change does the edit below relate, that isn't dealt with in the preceding two paragraphs and the intro?

According to Myatt himself in a recent statment ^[1] "The Numinous Way... with its Cosmic Ethics, its compassion, empathy and honour, represents my own world-view, for there has been, for me, a learning from adversity and experience."

The lead already tells that the Numinous Way is his, not Goofy's - ne bis in idem the Romans said: let's too.

That his road is a long and winding one, that life didn't shield him from adversities and misadventures, has been dealt with by quotes sufficiently:

• journalists, and [others] have been circulating rumours...
• These rumours and allegations were started by...
• For the West, nothing is sacred...

Only the elements Cosmic Ethics™ and empathy are new, though only arguably noteworthy. I put them into context. It's on the house. On a personal note, I so wished Mr. Myatt could participate personally here. I trust his magnanimity to handle the dispute gracefully and with wise constraint, as befits a man of the word - and sword. Zero-sums are so brittle. --tickle me 15:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Tickle - thank you for your comments. I appreciate the humor (yes, honestly!). Compassion is also new, BTW - and noteworthy, in my view, given Myatt's past effusions and past associations. Yes, some users can be quite sensitive, it seems; but isn't that good, in the context of being human, methinks? Coolmoon 17:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• The relevance of the quote I inserted should be obvious - it balances the article with what Mr Myatt believes and upholds now, which as [User:Coolmoon|Coolmoon]] wrote includes compassion. It balances the articles because the article deals with mr Myatt's past associations and beliefs, and gives the impression that he is still a Nazi and/or an Islamist.

"Over the past five or six years - partly as a result of my involvement with Islam - I have reviewed every thing I believed in, as I have also tried to admit my mistakes, and learn from them. I have also saught to answer some of the most fundamental and perplexing questions about life, about our existence. I had been searching for such answers since I was around thirteen years old, and in the course of this search I saught practical involvement with many of the major religions of the world. Now, as I mentioned earlier, I do believe I have found some answers, which I have tried to explain by means of The Numinous Way. Thus, I have gone beyond Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and conventional nationalism, and beyond National-Socialism itself - creating, in effect, a new, apolitical and ethical Way of Life." (Myatt - The Development of The Numinous Way and Other Questions)

The above quote should therefore be of interest, and I do think some comment on or explanation concerning Myatt's current stance should be included in the article. 65.57.106.34 18:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I object, Your Numerical Highness: compassion is already mentioned. Speaking of which, showing a lack thereof, possibly: I see that Mr. Myatt's work on Sappho is referenced to:

"Gary Daher Canedo: Safo y Catulo: poesía amorosa de la antigüedad, Universidad Nur, 2005"

That doesn't seem right, as Mr. Myatt's translation doesn't necessarily appear in that book, there's no bilingual edition mentioned, that only could be guessed at - it just happens that el excelentíssimo Seňor Daher Canedo had the good thinking of translating Sappho not from Greek, but from Мyаttіаn English. And even that is only half of what the book covers, the rest is his own translations from Latin. O dear, let's hope Mr. Myatt's were better. On a snide note: El muy ilustre Don Daher had it printed in, whew, 500 copies. I hope he sold some. Then again, the Bolivian winter is not for the faint of heart, he might make better use of them: nothing tops steaming hot chicharrones when it's freezing outside.

Como sea, le escribí por correo electrónico al escritor famoso, por si las moscas - quizás que me mande una receta. --hazme cosquillas 20:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• The Anon user above is, I believe, incorrect in his/her assumption(s) regarding ibn Myatt's current beliefs. Please refer to my most recent reply in the Myatt's Islam and The Numinous Way section, above. The quote given by Anon user may, or may not, be authentic - personally, I regard as more credible, according to Wikipedia guidlines, the sources quoted by The Times newspaper, and others, as well as the Islam On-line dialogue which ibn Myatt conducted earlier this year, all of which sources indicate ibn Myatt's continued adherence to Islam. Because of this, and because the issue of apostasy is a serious one, I am somewhat inclined, having considered the matter further, to reintroduce my former edit, deleted by Coolmoon, which balances the statement by Prof George Michael by providing ibn Myatt's own verified view of this particular matter. If no one objects, I shall reintroduce my former edit. Cloudnajafi 22:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Cloudnajafi - I believe you are mistaken, and are using out of date stuff, or stuff with no dates on it from unverified free sites like Tripod. If you care to take a glance at Dave Myatt's own site, registered under his name, you'll see the stuff he's been churning out these past months, and all of it is that numinous way stuff, or personal poetry, or things like that, and several items mention his commitment to this numinous way, and several mention his rejection of islam. So by his own words, he's an apostate - I don't think there's any getting away from this fact. Plus, The Times article is mostly quoting old Myatt stuff anyways, so you can't use that in favor of your argument. 65.57.106.34 12:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

User 65.57.106.34 is quite mistaken IMNSHO - the items are recent, and are on Myatt's own website. Plus, if 65.57.106.34 had checked the Islam-Online item you would have seen that it is dated only some months ago, so therefore is reasonably up to date. Therefore, I have restored the previous edits of Cloudnajafi. Myatt/Abdul-Aziz is still posting Islamic articles on forums and newsgroups, including soc.religion.islam - the last one, there, was just a few days ago. Coolmoon 21:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys (or should that be gals, as well?!) - those sites change every so often, so we can't use them IMHO. This point was made by Slim Virgin aeons ago (see the Archive). You can't keep updating the article everytime a personal site is changed or updated (some have been changed again, BTW)- stay with the published material, like the Michael book. That's what I've done - a revert to keep this thing sensible.70.84.56.165 18:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Anon User 70.84.56.165 - you are in error, I believe. Please refer to my comments, and those of cloudnajafi, and take note of the fact that two of the Myatt items from which the quotes were taken affirming Myatt's Islam were sourced in The Times article which is a primary source. Which site were you referring to in relation to "change"? I can't see any changes on Myatt's site. Coolmoon 21:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi CoolMoon. The site I meant is at http://www.davidmyatt.info - which is Myatt's own site. Check it out. There's no Islam items there, at all. Ditto the Myatt mirror site on Tripod. Prof George Michael (any relation to the singer I wonder?!) is right, and he's a primary source. The newspaper article you all keep mentioning is based on old material - years out of date. Go check Myatt's Statement for Journalist which user User:Tickle me put a link to in the main article - see his comments, above. It's also at http://www.davidmyatt.info/jstatement.html . Did you read what SlimVirgin wrote here a while back about using personal sites to update this Wikipedia article? Sound advice! I'm gonna do a revert to the sensible, confirmed, sourced material. 66.98.130.128 12:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have checked it out, which is why I have reverted your edit. You may wish to check the dates on the Myatt articles quoted in The Times - all are from this year. BTW, that newspaper article is, as I keep mentioning, a primary and recent source, whereas Michael's book is based on material from 2003. So, let's hope this is an end to "Anon" vandalism of the article (please!). Coolmoon 20:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Myatt's Islam

I have reverted to previous edits because it does seem as if I was mistaken about Myatt, for he's returned to what he's called *the numinous way*. So I'll stop being stubborn, and won't do what I've been doing which is changing the edits of five or six people over the past six months or so who objected to my claims about Myatt's continuing commitment to Islam. Coolmoon 05:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amazon Link

Hi, SlimVirgin! Re the link there to the book reported to be by Long and Myatt (Black Book) for which Amazon gives the ISBN 0946646023 and the date 1984. A search of the British Library shows up two books with that title, both authored by Long and ONA: 1) 094664604X 2nd ed 1984 and 2) 0946646058 around the same time. A search of ISBN's for the publisher finds: 0946646007 Changes by D.W. Myatt; 094664604X Black Book (as above); 0946646058 Book Wyrd (as above); 0946646082 Sappho, DW Myatt. That is, no details for the ISBN given by Amazon, anywhere - at least anywhere I've found so far. So, I've no idea where Amazon got the info from for this particular book. I'll have another look, soon, when work blah blah permits. Coolmoon 10:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)