Talk:Dale Abenojar

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ]

dale abenojar=hoax —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.215.112.89 (talk • contribs) .

Sources pointing he is indeed a hoax? --Howard the Duck 12:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

dear howard the duck, namaste. the statement "Sources pointing he is indeed a hoax?" is unfair, content is malicious and obviously a character assasination plot. It must be proven in court otherwise it is libelous in form. Sources must prove accusations otherwise they should be charged with libel and moral damages. Buddism does not allow such a mockery of a human being more specially if a person is a blessed Qomolungma summiteer. Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

Sheesh, which is more unfair, etc.? The one made by 203215.112.89, or mine? If ever a source says Abenojar, is indeed a hoax, then, in all cases it should be in the article. --Howard the Duck 11:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

dear howard the duck, namaste. it was an honest mistake on my part. i did not realize quick enough that the statement "sources pointing he is indeed a hoax" was your question to the unsigned contributor on this talk page asking the unsigned contributor his/her references and citations with complete details on her/his statement "dale abenojar=hoax —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.215.112.89 (talk • contribs) ." i suppose. my apologies for my misunderstanding. Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

Contents 1 NPOV 2 North/South Col 3 Recent Edits 4 Clarifications 5 Elizabeth Hawley links

[edit] NPOV

lets make this article stable and stop back-toback reverts by disucssing content and references here. --Howard the Duck 08:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

can we add this as the reason that media & filipino mountaineers have doubts to his claim?
"he was not recognized as such since there was no other witnesses in the summit except his Sherpa. Also in 1994, his detractors had successfully discredited his Everest attempt to the Philippine Goverment and media . (Inq.net)"—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.247.219.10 (talk • contribs) . dear howard the duck, namaste. it is not a climber and his sherpa's fault that they were at the summit after most of the summiteers had gone down. it is not the first to happen. many others have even summiteed on their own like mr. messner. First hand information explained to us himalayan climbers last april 2006 in kathmandu that he was the first to proclaim to the Philippine media of his plan to climb everest in the late 1994 afterwhich the other Filipino mountaineer group who had discredited him from his sponsors were happy in halting his everest attempt from government and media but the other group later never climbed everest the following year he says. mr. abenojar explains to us (teary eyed in his revelations) that the group who had maliciously discredited him from his legitimate sponsors were the same organizers of the present Filipino everest team today who continiously maliciously maligns him and orchestrates these libelous character assasination plots (which he says were untrue accusations a long time ago in the late 80's) to Filipino media and other Filipino mountaineers up to today. made us himalayan climbers understand better how Filipino climbers' darker side forces crab mentality to reign inside the wicked minds instead of morally uplifting each other's good plans. we offered a sacrificial animal for the souls of mr. abenojar's discreditors so they may be enlightened in the end. this revelation was just one of many interesting truths that had naturally come out of mr. abenojar's thoughts which we recorded. The good thing is, he says that he does not hold any grudge against people that do harm on his character. He continues to say that he was a saved (christian) man more than a year ago. Buddha has blessed mr. abenojar with safety in summitting his everest dream. Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

also his future plans?

• Climb Everest North side again in 2007 without the aid of supplemental oxygen.( A child in Everest )
• Fund charities thru his Everest climb. (ABS-CBN)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.247.219.10 (talk • contribs) .

Ok, that'll be better, but please, don't remove references without discussion. (You can sign by adding ~~~~.) --Howard the Duck 12:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] North/South Col

What is "col"? --Howard the Duck 14:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed.
North col - semi verticall ice wall in the Tibet side up to 7000m
South col Route - Normal route in Nepal side up to the 8900 167.247.219.10 05:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

So "Col" doesn't mean a thing? --Howard the Duck 05:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

pls see Topographic prominence/Col 167.247.219.10 05:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Can we use another less-confusing term? Such as "mountain pass" or something? --Howard the Duck 05:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

we can't since it's a name of a place. may be we can link all "col" words to wiki. 167.247.219.10 07:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh... so its a proper name, like River Nile, etc. Linking all "col" words would be good enough for me. --Howard the Duck 08:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Edits

"an unrecognizable climber with his face obscured by an oxygen"
"has a reputation for fabricating achievements though"
"is the only authorized issuing authority of Everest summiteers"
dear howard the duck, namaste. China Tibet Mmountaineering Association CTMA) is the only organization for foreign mountaineering expeditions: China Tibet Mountaineering Association (tibet.cn/en/newfeature/guide/text/t20060421_110077.htm) was set up on March 17 in 1981. As the only organization for foreign mountaineering expeditions procedures transaction, TMA owns right to approve the mountaineering applications and offers following services: 1, Vicarious mountaineering applications as scientific investigation, photography, mapping and other actions can be undertaken by TAM. 2, Offering services including communication, material purchasing, room and board. 3, Offering mountaineering guides, assistants, camp kitcheners, transportation vehicle. 4, Organizing joint mountaineering. Address: No.10 east Linkuo Road, Lhasa, Tibet Autonomous Region, China. Tel: 0086-891-6333720 ¡¡6333687 ¡¡6322934 Fax: 0086-891-6336366 Himalayan climber 15nov2006

what can you say about these edits? 167.247.219.10 11:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we remove everything from the page, start from scratch, and add citations for every sentence? Or we can do it at Talk:Dale Abenojar/Draft. --Howard the Duck 12:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's do your second suggestion. 167.247.219.10 02:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I opened it already. Add references by using the <ref>your reference here</ref> tags. For an example, see the NCAA Philippines article. --Howard the Duck 03:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

will resume my contrib on Oct as I am busy for the moment. pls. cont your effort on clean-up of this article 167.247.219.10 07:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifications

I've reverted some of your edits on this article, including this talk page. I'll tell you why:

I've added a notice on your user page that you need to name your references. For instance, if you say that Dale really did visit Everest first, show us documented proof...give us the papers, the documents, the photographs, the videos that Dale Abenojar did reach the summit first before anyone did. (And, more importantly, show us how to see this for ourself---give us the links or the footnotes.) AFAIK, Dale Abenojar has not yet provided these proofs in public, which is why some people doubt his credibility.

If we can not verify your edits, if other people cannot prove it for themselves, then it will be very difficult for anyone to assert their factuality. More importantly, the neutrality of your edits will remain suspect. Take note that even the statement "Dale Abenojar a hoax"? was tagged for lack of citation; in the same manner, please provide us the proofs, the documents, the articles that we can verify on our own. --- Tito Pao 10:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tito Pao,

Namaste.

show us documented proof...give us the papers, the documents, the photographs...

please google www.monterosa-nepal.com -they should have the official proofs-website summit picture of mr. abenojar and the copy of the summit certificate awarded to him by CTMA.

as to videos... since your from the philippines maybe you can contact mr. abenojar himself if he can show you his everest video. mr. abenojar should have a copy of his summit certificate that he might personally show to you since you and abenojar live in the same country. We believe he is a easy and a very nice person to talk to. We were privy to his humble personality during his everest ascent.

Kindly delete my communications with you on this talk page. Many thanks Tito Pao :-) Himalayan climber 12 nov 2006

"Dale Abenojar has not yet provided these proofs in public" dear tito pao, namaste. FYI: On August 4, 2006, Dale's documentary film "Child in Everest" was shown to family, friends, supporters, media and representatives of the Philippine government. Curator of Malacañang Museum is now evaluating of giving Dale the presidential citation and recognition of "Champions for Life." (Philippine Star)

We believe mr. abenojar's summit certificate was shown on Philippine national television with TV host ms. sanches in her news show "Korina Today" as shown on mr. abenojar's picture on front page of entry. is there an available article on ms. korina's tv news show tito pao? Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

It appears that you personally know Mr. Dale Abenojar and are well-acquainted with him. For the sake of academic discussion, let us allow some concessions on this article. Please understand that because it is generally accepted that Messrs. Oracion, Emata and Garduce are the first three climbers as far as most (if not all) Filipinos are concerned, it might confuse some Filipino readers to read about Mr. Abenojar establishing his claim when they know otherwise. Reading through your comments, I have an inkling of what needs to be done with this article in order to make it more objective (as far as the Wikipedia NPOV policy is concerned; however, before I proceed, I'd like to ask some clarificatory questions:

Questions and tasks that need to be addressed (you can post your answers here on the talk pages. It may also help if you can provide us with related existing Wikipedia articles)

• How does the certification process for Mt. Everest climbers work? What organization or body authenticates climbs?

• What are the leading news sources within the mountaineering society that are readily available for the general public? How can non-mountaineers know that they are reliable?

• Mr. Abenojar's climb was verified and confirmed by Monterosa Treks and Expeditions. How long have they been in operation? Have they enjoyed a good reputation in mountaineering circles?

• The Elizabeth Hawley article needs more work in order to establish her reputation, at least for us who are not mountaineers. Are her records and chronicles publicly available (or at very least, the most significant parts of it)? Are/were most of these records corroborated and/or verified by other mountaineering associations?

Please understand that I really need to ask these questions because I'm not very familiar with mountaineering, and I want to understand everything from the perspective of a mountaineer. Once these clarificatory questions are answered, we'll try to copyedit this article and other related articles to come up with a more objective article. --- Tito Pao 18:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tito Pao, Namaste.

How does the certification process for Mt. Everest climbers work? What organization or body authenticates climbs?

If you are climbing everest from tibet/north side: climber pays the everest outfitter. outfitter gets the climbing permit from CTMA. after summitting, climber submits himself to CTMA panel of officers for interview, questions and cross examinations on climber's trail signs from base to summit. climber submits all his available pictures and videos to CTMA panel. CTMA reviews all discussion and presented proofs. If CTMA authenticates proofs, climber is awarded summit certificate. Another respectable everest chronicler that authenticates everest summiteers is ms. hawley. she practically repeats the same process as CTMA.

• What are the leading news sources within the mountaineering society that are readily available for the general public? How can non-mountaineers know that they are reliable?

everestnews.com mounteverest.net explorersweb.com

they publish what they get from climbers/outfitters/other news orgs. Most news come from climber's own experience.

• Mr. Abenojar's climb was verified and confirmed by Monterosa Treks and Expeditions. How long have they been in operation? Have they enjoyed a good reputation in mountaineering circles?

They have been in business i believe for 7 years. The owner is a former everest trekking guide i believe. He is also i believe the president of the Nepal Travel Association.

Monterosa Treks & Expedition (P) Ltd. is registered in Office of the Company Registrar as (P.) Ltd. No (704/1993) & Department of Tourism (authorize no. (555) 237- 1993) of His Majesty's Government of Nepal. It is operated by qualified and expert group leader, Trekking guides, Mountain guides, tour guides, trekking crews with more than 11 years of professional Experience in trekking, Mountaineering, tours and related more.

It is an active member of Trekking Agents Association of Nepal (TAAN), Nepal Mountaineering Association (NMA). Himalayan Rescue Association (HRA).

• The Elizabeth Hawley article needs more work in order to establish her reputation, at least for us who are not mountaineers. Are her records and chronicles publicly available (or at very least, the most significant parts of it)? Are/were most of these records corroborated and/or verified by other mountaineering associations?

Ms. elizabeth hawley is the undisputed authority on everest chronicles. she is well respected in all mountaineering news orgs and climbers worldwide. you can google ms. hawley. i believe she publishes her everest chronicles once a year on a cd that is available for sale at the end of each year/climbing season. i believe all her records are corroborated by by the mountaineering circles.

Kindly delete my replies on this talk page. Many thanks. himalayan climber 13 nov 2006

Thanks for the insight. I'll be checking these info against all known Wikipedia articles. One more important question (and this is crucial in determining how the neutrality dispute can be settled): in case of disputes about Mt. Everest ascents (such as the one involving Mr. Abenojar and Messrs. Oracion, Emata and Garduce), how are these disputes settled in the mountaineering community? Are there any organizations that act like arbiters or mediators with full authority?

Dear Tito Pao, Namaste. I am only aware of two things. One, the only group that would most likely want to impress other Filipinos (confuse others of simple facts) that mr. oracion is the first to summit everest are the organizers and the news org. of mr. oracion's group who according to everestnews.com, etc. had proclaimed him the first on may 17 (two days after mr. abenojar's summit date) to the world (why couldnt they retract their statements? will it jeopardize their sponsor positioning and humiliate their news org even though they were aware (as an international news org) that mr. abenojar's group (monterosa treks & expeditions Nepal) had announced his impending summit bid hours before dinnertime of may 14-start of his actual summit assault at camp3 8,300mtrs) was about to take place the following day (may 15) and on the day of his summit (may 15) and again the following day may 16 after summit day. Given these scenarios, the international mountaineering community are no dumb to these Filipino happenings as it is obviously clear to us that mr. abenojar's everest record is being politicized by his own countrymen with crab mentality and sadly his own government. We have read Filipino blogs on him and we believe the other parties that envy his remarkable achievement (as a Filipino without sponsors, broadcast network backing and without high altitude experience-taking the more technical north col route) have made numerous libelous unsolicited remarks unbecoming of an everest summiteer everest summiteers are very much respected in the international mountaineering community) and unbecoming of a true sportsman, unbecoming of a news org. and unbecoming of a team. lastly, we believe that there are actually no arbiters or mediators with full authority to settle in mr. abenojar and mr. oracion's case. We only believe that there is only two authorities that certify an everest summiteer and they cannot contradict because both of them have their own summit dates on their summit certificates plainly because thier respective everest summiteer climbs everest from an opposite side and on a separate country. If your climbing the "south col route," your climbing via Nepal so the Nepal Mountaineering Association awards summit certificates to summiteers climbing the "south col." The other one is the China Tibet Mountaineering Association. If a mountaineer summits via the "north col route," then he is awarded a summit certificate by the CTMA. Only these two distinguised mountaineering associations have the sole authority to award a summit certificate to everest summiteers. Now, if the CTMA retracts or withraws mr. abenojar's summit certificate, then and only then mr. oracion becomes the first Filipino. In the case of ms. hawley, she is not a mediator nor an arbiter in mountaineering disputes. she is only a chronicler of everest summiteers. a veteran at that and the most respected chronicler of everest summiteers by the international mountaineering community. She has never made a mistake in her time-tested career. So when she declared that mr. abenojar was the first Filipino to summit everest, rest assured that all the mountaineers all over the world that believes her 101% and the decision made by the china tibet mountaineering association will most likely believe and back-up mr. abenojar in their own record and history books that mr. abenojar was the first Filipino Everest summiteer.

even here at wikipedia's talk page-"abenojar a hoax? this insinuation is a libelous statement if cannot be proven otherwise. why does wikipedia allow these statements even at wikipedia's talk page? isnt libelous statements a no no in wikipedia? We believe these libelous insinuations should be deleted immediately. can anyone prove that mr. abenojar CTMA summit certificate is a hoax/fake? an unbiased and fearless news org in your country should fly to Lhasa Tibet and check with the CTMA office headquarters if indeed mr. abenojar's summit certificate is genuine or not to finally end the Filipino dispute on matter of everest north col summit dates.

We read that the other party even accused mr. abenojar of paying off CTMA elders for the summit certificate!!! and paying off his trekking sherpas to tell the Filipino public that mr. abenojar indeed summitted?!!! these are grave insults to the China Tibet mountaineering association who are pure chinese (does the Filipino Everest team have chinese sponsors?) and the entire nepalese sherpa community as well who helped the Filipino Everest team summit the south col side!!! insinuating these horrible accusations to two respectable mountaineering organizations is unforgivable i must say indeed!!! i suggest that the high altitude doctor of the Filipino Everest team who publicly announced (via your philippine star newspaper) be declared "persona non grata in Tibet and Nepal!!!) you can inquire with the Filipino newspaper reporter mr. rainer with regard to this disturbing article. Himalayan climber 13nov2006

Calm down. We know that Abenojar has been certified by the Tibetans/Chinese, but doesn't mean he will get the mainstream recognition (e.g. his certification is disputed) that he got there first. The article needs to emphasize that Abenojar still has to release his evidences, etc., and we need citations. Also, a source is badly needed to say that mainstream recognition was submitteed that Abenojar is the acknowledged first Filipino to reach the summit. --Howard the Duck 04:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

biased news reporting (marhgil.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_marhgil_archive.html)

walang kinikilingan? by kukote

"papunta pa lang kayo, pabalik na ako!" yan siguro ang gustong ipahayag ni Dale Abenojar kina Oracion, Emata at Garduce. hehehe. kagabi ko lang narinig sa balita that Abenojar claims that he is the first Filipino to summit Mt. Everest, not Oracion. Nakarating daw sya on May 15, samantalang si Oracion ay May 17, mas nauna nga naman sya. Totoo kaya ito? siguro. nakakalat sa internet ang balita eh.

I googled Abenojar and found these news... mga balita na nagsasabi na nakarating nga daw si Abenojar ng summit on May 15, though the reports said its unconfirmed, pero at least, ibinalita pala nung May 16 sa internet, hindi man lang nabanggit sa local news? Walang kinikilingang pagbabalita? Sampal sa dalawang media network, hehehe, e nakakalat lang pala dyan sa internet ang nangyari kay Abenojar eh, di man lang nabanggit, puro manok lang nila ang ibinabalita. o eto yung mga balita...

"According to MountEverest.net, Malaysian climber Ravichandran Tharumalingam and Filipino climber Dale Abenojar have both reportedly reached the summit." - Outdoor News Wire (May 16,2006) "More and more climbers are summiting Everest from the north side, thanks to a remarkably long period of generally good weather – except for isolated snowfalls. Himex’s second team succeeded yesterday, including disabled Mark Inglis; there were also reports on Malaysian Ravi topping out, as well as unconfirmed news on Filipino Dale Abenojar reaching the summit, despite previous reports stating he had aborted his attempt." Mt. Everest.Net (May 16,2006) “One guy who beat the odds was Dale Abenojar. You will have read about him on my blogs and many Philippine news agencies and followers have asked me about him, so here is the latest: On 12th May I saw him going up with a Sherpa. He was dress in full down suit (at 6500m!) and going very slowly. On May 18, I saw him, again on a yak, going down, just below middle camp. I was going up, but while passing he said: 'Harry, I summited May 15 and lost one toe”. So the good thing is that he is still alive and can return to his wife and children ( I had given him less than 50% survival chance, but Everest can be strange in her decisions...). Whether he actually summited he should prove himself, I have no further info about that...” - Mt.Everest.net (May 22, 2006)

Dale, or someone from his e-mail has submitted a photo and the following about Dale: "On May 15, 2006, Dale Abenojar, a Philippine-born mountaineer and amazingly the first high altitude climb of his life - finally becomes the first officially recorded Filipino Mt. Everest North Col summiter. The Chinese Mountaineering Association will present Mr. Abenojar on May 22 his certified "Mt. Everest North Col Summit Certificate". We asked for more... Stay Tuned... - EverestNews (May 25, 2006)

sige, yun lang!

Obviously, Mr. Abenojar has his share of PR men to do his job rather than releasing to the public (not the selected public)full proof to his claim. And while their camp keeps on saying that sponsors and media networks backing Oracion, Emata and Garduce were responsible why they were having a hard time getting attention. I'd like to point out that Mr. Abenojars camp also had sponsors and have been going around the same media networks to publicize their claim.

The problem here stems from the fact the Mr. Abenojars camp had been circulating conflicting reports and statements themselves which makes the public doubt his claim same as what transpired in 1993. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.1.82.243 (talk • contribs) .

Dear anonymous user, that is why I have been pressing "Himalayan climber" to properly cite his edits to avoid any problems with the articles. (And, in case you have missed it, I also encouraged him to register an account on Wikipedia; I also invite you to do the same.)

This is also the same concern Howard has about the article from the very start. Note that he even challenged the anonymous user who posted "Dale Abenojar = hoax?" comment to show his citations/references; until now, this anonymous user has yet to deliver.

As for your allegations that Mr. Abenojar has his own backers and campaigners in the media, can you also show us your references and citations? Can you show us news reports that expose these so-called sponsors and backers (with complete details)? --- Tito Pao 16:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

dear tito pao, namaste. We must say that the above is quite disturbing in Filipino media coming from a Filipino forum site. It seems that the odds were against mr. abenojar even in Filipino news reporting. Unbelievable insight. Not a fair playing field i must say. Himalayan climber 15 nov 2006

Dear unsigned contributor, namaste.

"Obviously, Mr. Abenojar has his share of PR men to do his job rather than releasing to the public (not the selected public)full proof to his claim. And while their camp keeps on saying that sponsors and media networks backing Oracion, Emata and Garduce were responsible why they were having a hard time getting attention. I'd like to point out that Mr. Abenojars camp also had sponsors and have been going around the same media networks to publicize their claim."

you must be uninformed about certain things especially about mr. abenojar's so-called sponsors. FYI, we believe that mr. abenojar came to nepal with only his downpayment to pay his outfitter (monterosa treks & expeditions nepal). we also believe that mr. abenojar had to pawn his landrover vehicle to pay the required downpayment for his everest expedition. now, if he had sponsors, he would have naturally paid in full his outfitter before his travel to everest right? wrong. he had to stay in kathmandu for two weeks until his wife could put up the balance of nearly USD16,000 asking contributions from friends and relatives to complete the balance. We believe mr. abenojar could not afford to pay a PR consultant as he is obviously strapped with cash. mr. abenojar's full proof was shown to the public. summit certificate shown in public in ms. korina's abs-cbn news program called korina today. his video documentary was also shown to the public free-of-charge . How can you say "selected public" if the advance screening in a cinema welcomes the public as it was published by the (Philippine Star) on its front page the day before screening that entry to the cinema was free of charge? citing: On August 4, 2006, Dale's documentary film "Child in Everest" was shown to family, friends, supporters, media and representatives of the Philippine government. Curator of Malacañang Museum is now evaluating of giving Dale the presidential citation and recognition of "Champions for Life." (Philippine Star) We believe that mr. abenojar's PR consultant is his wife. That wouldnt cost him much Peso would it?

"The problem here stems from the fact the Mr. Abenojars camp had been circulating conflicting reports and statements themselves which makes the public doubt his claim same as what transpired in 1993."

Can you cite your references and citations as to your "conflicting reports and statements" allegation? can you prove what you write mr. anonymous contributor? show us your information as tito pao says: : As for your allegations that Mr. Abenojar has his own backers and campaigners in the media, can you also show us your references and citations? Can you show us news reports that expose these so-called sponsors and backers (with complete details)? one more onerous date, "what transpired in 1993." this should be "1994" and not 1993. hope it was just a plain typo error on your part unsigned contributor. Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

Himalayan Climber, blogs are not acceptable as Wikipedia sources per this policy, so this particular blog entry cannot be considered as a serious and reliable source. I deleted the link, btw --- Tito Pao 13:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elizabeth Hawley links

All Elizabeth Hawley-related links on the "External links" section were removed from this article and, instead, placed on the Elizabeth Hawley article. Since this article is about Dale Abenojar, they don't belong here. --- Tito Pao 15:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)