Talk:Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church

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	Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church is part of WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Seventh-day Adventist Church and Seventh-day Adventist Church-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) I make an appeal to the administrators regarding the recent and repeated vandalism of this page by user E.Shubee. He appears to have been in trouble with administrators before for his biased and misinformed posts, and his attacks upon this entry may easily be construed as the result of some kind of vendetta. I am a member of the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church (one of more than 4 members, as E.Shubee contends) and am attempting to provide factual information in as professional a manner as possible.
WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church To-do: edit  Expand "Glacier View Controversy" section, to include more background, history, theological issues, and details of the Glacier View meeting itself Add to "Adventist Responses to Criticisms" section, ideally with material from Adventist scholars etc.

I have protected the article due to a spate of POV editing and some complaints emailed to WP:OTRS. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 02:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I put a note on your talk page about the issue. Feel free to ignore it. Ansell 02:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Reasons to delete the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church entry 2 Reasons to not delete the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church entry 3 Response to Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church 4 Response to Zahakiel 5 Response to Ansell 6 Response to The Uninvited Co., Inc. 7 Original research 8 Adding References 9 "Fundamentalist Christian" title 10 Removal from Wikipedia 1.0 11 What's the street address for the CSDA church in Canada? 12 Walter McGill believes 13 Verify 14 Legal Controversy section

[edit] Reasons to delete the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church entry

The claim that Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church meets Wikipedia standards is ludicrous. The article Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church should be deleted for the reasons listed here. --E.Shubee 15:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons to not delete the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church entry

To respond to the claims of E.Shubee:

1) Claim: That the links on the page Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church are "circular" and "self authenticating"

I am not sure what kinds of links he would expect about a Church. Since a religion is by definition a set of "beliefs" and practices, the only way to know for certain what a people believe is to ASK them; naturally, therefore, links that reference the beliefs of this movement will largely be composed of what they have written about themselves. Mr. Shubee wrongly alleges that Walter McGill (one of the founders of the CSDA movement) is an editor here. This is incorrect, however certain members of the Church (and again, there are more than 4 of us!) are quite capable of recounting the history and tenets of our religion.

Further, if you look at any of the religion entries on Wikipedia, you will find that the majority of the external links are "self-authenticating," since you cannot scientifically test a religion for doctrinal accuracy. In religion, objectivity forbids editors or commentators from saying whether or not a belief is "bad" or "good," but these beliefs must almost necessarily be described BY the religion's adherents in order to ensure accuracy in reporting. Wikipedia seems to understand this quite well without Mr. Shubee's input; for example, the Baptist entry begins with these as its external links: BWA Heritage and Identity Commission, Baptist Press, Associated Baptist Press, American Baptist Historical Society, Baptist History and Heritage Society, etc., etc.

2) Claim: "The Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church is a Wikipedia entry because the squatting Wikipedia editors that control the Adventist pages as if they were their very own, believe in the claims of Walter McGill but only because he refuses to follow Wikipedia standards, claims to be a Seventh-day Adventist, and has no spiritual discernment."

Not only is this a personal attack on both the Church and Wikipedia editors, but it also demonstrates remakable ignorance about both of these. Walter McGill has never, to my knowledge, posted anything to Wikipedia, and independent editors would have no reason to believe any claims he made even if he did. If Mr. Shubee has a problem with the CSDA entry, he undoubtedly has it with me, as I am the one who has done most of the recent work on the page. That the entry is incomplete I freely acknowledge; however, it is not for lack of information or objectivity, but lack of TIME, as our church is currently being sued by the Conference under whose jurisdiction Mr. Shubee operates, and we have to prioritize our resources. I do intend to continue adding information about our beliefs and the current events regarding the litigation against us as time permits, although I imagine I will have to resort to actually writing what CSDAs say about their own beliefs. This is in line with other religious entries in Wikipedia, and I trust therefore that this will be seen as reasonable.

3) Claim: "public records indicate that his academy only has three students."

The academy existed for just a few months in a very rural area of the United States. There was a lack of interest, and it effectively closed down. If Churches are going to be taken to task for every attempt at an outreach that did not work out as they expected, we should have much more to say about every system of faith that ever existed, including mainstream Adventism. The "evidence" collected against the CSDA movement by this editor appear to be a mass of misconstrued and biased snippets from the history of a very young and often-opposed religion.

4) Claim: "Sure, McGill says that he also has church members in Africa and Australia, but they all live in the bush and it's virtually impossible to verify their existence."

This statement borders at least on nationalistic elitism. The moment culturally ignorant people hear about "Africa" and "Australia," images of uneducated, hut-dwelling bushmen come to mind. Even pseudo-intellectuals should know better than to make such charged statements as this while attempting to maintain some degree of credibility in a community striving for objective standards.

5) Claim: "That Christians must use the names יהוה (Yahweh) and יהושע (Yahshua) for the Father and Son in worship."

Even the statements made about our beliefs are poorly researched, and therefore completely wrong. If this editor had read our statements of belief, which he claims to be capable of critiquing, he would have known that while we prefer to use these names in our personal worship, we do NOT use them exclusively even among ourselves, much less do we say that "Christians" in any kind of general sense must use these names.

6) Claim: "That Christians must keep the New Moons and some of the Annual Feasts found in the Old Testament."

Also false. We do believe that New Moons are important for a Church's cleansing on a personal and social level, but we do not believe that the Annual Feasts "must" be kept. We believe that they are useful teaching tools, and that those united with the movement in spirit will make every reasonable attempt to attend, but these times are seen more along the lines of a spiritual family reunion than a command from Heaven.

Finally, I am saddened to see that Mr. Shubee would go so far as to threaten Wikipedia itself with the SDA Church's trademark. This is one of the primary reasons the CSDA movement separated from the Conference in the first place because, if the leaders are unable to convince people of their position (in religion, politics, or law) by discussion and diplomacy, they quickly and unashamedly resort to force, as evidenced by the lawsuit in which we are currently involved. We do not accept this course of action as Christian, particularly not Protestant, in nature.

I believe that this page represents an important contribution to the wealth of knowledge about Adventism in general and Adventist-related movements, and therefore request that a) the entry be allowed to remain as we continue to add information as time permits, b) that any criticism (we welcome constructive criticism) be of an objective and non-doctrine-driven nature, and c) that we be allowed to pursue our work (at least on this website) without threats of legal action and spiritual damnation. Zahakiel 16:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church

1. The point about circularity and self-authentication is that Wikipedia requires you to have reliable references to back up your article. You just can't quote yourself. Who else acknowledges your existence? You can't use yellowbook.com. The two most authoritative references that you can use are the first two footnotes of The Truth About Walter McGill and the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church. You shouldn't be hiding the fact that CSDA is well known for conduct that is unconscionable, unfair and deceptive. Did you notify Wikipedia that CSDA is breaking federal and state law and that this fact might embarrass them in the future? Don't you think that this would be a polite thing to do?

2. I agree that this statement wasn't proven but I believe that it can be proven true. Note however that it's not the main point or overriding theme of The Truth About Walter McGill and the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church.

3. Thanks for clearing that up. Did you notice that the source given in the three footnotes for CSDA Academy come from The Official Web Site of the State of Tennessee? Those records list the private schools in Tennessee and cover the school years 2006-7, 2005-6 and 2004-5. If you don't have the software to view those files, I recommend the open source software called Open Office. It's free at http://www.openoffice.org/.

Do you care to guess why the state of TN has you on record as a school when you're not? If CSDA applied for state recognition or whatever, don't you think that CSDA should set the record straight with the state?

4. You're misinterpreting the sarcasm. Your article says that Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church is a Fundamentalist Christian movement. It is being pointed out to you that four persons do not constitute a movement in the United States in 2003 and that there is no evidence of a Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church in Canada and there is no evidence of Creation Seventh Day Adventists in Kenya or Australia.

5. Claim 5 is based on a direct quotation from the Wikipedia article Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church. "The group's more notable beliefs include: ... the keeping of New Moons and some of the Annual Feasts found in the Old Testament, use of the names יהוה (Yahweh) and יהושע (Yahshua) for the Father and Son of the Godhead in worship."

Beliefs in a context of describing what a religious group believes are understood as required. If you're just listing a bunch of optional beliefs or the practices of the group, then you need to rewrite your article.

6. See claim 5. --E.Shubee 20:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Zahakiel

1. Primary sources, ie, the church documents, are not enough on their own. Secondary documents are generally seen in greater light, ie, has someone commented in a published article to back up the claims that you can find in primary sources. This enables the article to be written in a neutral point of view, without bias towards an editors interpretation of primary sources.

Your personal research is not allowed at all. See the No original research policy.

2. I would contend, that, based on numerous lawsuits between Eugene Schubert] and the Seventh-day Adventist Church, that he is not actually acting "under jurisdiction.

4. Thats a joke that we Aussies all live in the bush right? Otherwise I would not have commented on it at all.

6 You are not here to "pursue your work". Wikipedia editors are neutral, and only comment on outside facts. I suggest you review your contributions in this light. Ansell 23:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Ansell

Thank you for your statements.

1) Be assured, as many secondary and independent documents as possible will be utilized to verify that which CAN be verified from outside the Church itself. However, as I pointed out upon reviewing other religious entries, statements about a religion's doctrinal standpoint (specifically) are most accurate from the "horse's mouth." The Baptist entry references Baptist websites, the Anglican entry references Anglican websites, etc., and I am aware of the "no personal research" policy. In looking over the article, I don't find any place where a reference points to any members' statements, except for the "history of the Church" that would only be known by founders (myself excluded) anyway, so I think everything so far is in order, pending additions.

2) I am sure he isn't acting on their behalf, and is as much an embarassment to them as to us, that was not the intention of the statement. I am merely pointing out the likeness of method, and the fact that he is a member of that particular system.

4) None of the Aussies I have met live in the bush... at least not on a regular basis (campers) :) I realize Mr. E's statement was sarcastic, but it was in extremely poor taste.

6) No doubt. If you find any contributions from me that appear to present any of the facts about this Church in a biased light, I will certainly revise them. Thus far, I have merely stated what the history and beliefs happen to be, and have not made any judgements that these are "true," "good," or even "Biblical" in nature; they are simply the things that have happened or are believed by the members. Thanks again.

Zahakiel 01:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to The Uninvited Co., Inc.

I hereby withdraw my earlier request that the Wikipedia article be removed. I also retract my previous error in saying that the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church lacks notability. In the interests of justice, I ask that the article Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church be unlocked and corrected to reflect the verifiable sources, admissions and facts revealed on the page Talk:Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church. Notorious deception, delusion and fraud does meet the minimum threshold of notability. --E.Shubee 12:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

I have labelled statements which have so far been unreferenced, including possible weasel words with tags so that they can each be individually referenced. Note that the statements which are non-church related cannot be reliably referenced using church material among other categories of unreliable sources. Also, an investigation of the Undue weight policy may be applicable to some statements. Ansell 00:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding References

I have begun to add references from third-party sources regarding non-doctrinal material and on doctrines when the movement is listed with other groups with similar beliefs (e.g., non-trinitarian Churches). Zahakiel 22:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Fundamentalist Christian" title

The first reference at the end of the sentence that the church is a "fundamentalist Christian" one references an official statement of beliefs that includes the statement, "The Bible alone is the standard for all faith-- doctrine and practice."

An antagonistic editor has been insisting on further evidence that the individuals truly believe this, in effect asking for an independent source to verify personal beliefs. I am attempting to follow the evidently more experienced User:Ansel's statement, "Note that the statements which are non-church related cannot be reliably referenced using church material among other categories of unreliable sources." The fundamental, Christian nature of a movement is inherently "church related," therefore I would think that an official statement of beliefs would suffice. If I am in error in thinking that this is is excessive, I wish to be corrected, but as I noted several times in my editing alterations, what is being required by this particular critic does not appear to be a Wikipedia standard of operation. Zahakiel 00:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do you interpret someone placing a citation needed tag immediately following your description of the CSDA Church as a movement, a denial of your fundamental beliefs? Four individuals do not constitute a movement. You obviously think that you have scores of followers but the truth is, you have no proof. --E.Shubee 01:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Movement: "A diffusely organized or heterogeneous group of people or organizations tending toward or favoring a generalized common goal: the antislavery movement; the realistic movement in art." [Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006] You are using an absurdly out of date statement from the year 2003 to continue to insist on this "four persons" nonsense, but the fact that you would even concede "four" is enough to meet the dictionary definition; a "group" under the most narrow of constraints is "two or more." Even by the rigid standards of mathematics, a group is a "non-empty" set. If you are not careful, people are going to begin to doubt your objectivity regarding this entry. Zahakiel 15:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Since you agree that the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church was formed in 1988 [1] and had only 4 members in December of 2003 [2] and there being no objective evidence of notability (other than lawless activities, incredible delusion and marvelous deception), can we agree that your movement is going nowhere really really fast? --E.Shubee 17:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I did not agree that the movement had only 4 members in 2003; if you read your own self-referenced forum, you will find that the statement you are clinging to was regarding then-baptized members in the United States only, and affirmed by a witness whose credibility you seem to be making a small career of denying; I have no problem with the statement if it is placed in its right setting, yet you will tout that as a "fact" of the movement in 2006 with little reservation, because it seems to fit whatever agenda you happen to have adopted. I agreed that you accorded the movement at least that many, making your criticism of the CSDA Church as a "movement" groundless. No doubt you will find other things to complain about now that this is established based on a dictionary definition.

In short answer to your question above: No.

And further, what I think about it has nothing to do with what is being presented in this entry, whether I agree with you on this POV or not. I'm not going to get personal with you, Mr. Shubert, other than to point out, in as diplomatic a language as possible, the implications of your behavior regarding this entry thus far. Zahakiel 17:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal from Wikipedia 1.0

I removed the template incorporating this page into Wikipedia 1.0. The article states that there are just two main congregations. This is hardly notable at all - maybe enough to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia (barely, or even doubtful), but certainly not worthy of including with Wikipedia 1.0 WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church. -Colin MacLaurin 19:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I see what you are talking about. The template does not necessarily warrant inclusion into Wikipedia 1.0. It is more about listing articles that are related to the project. I have demoted its importance to the lowest category. MyNameIsNotBob 02:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

If the idea is to list all articles related to the project, then perhap it merits inclusion; that is, assuming that it is even notable enough to be included in Wikipedia itself. I had a quick scan of the "low" priority articles, and saw many than I consider to be significantly more notable than this one, such as George McCready Price who you could say initiated the Creation science movement. If it is to be included, then there are many many other Adventist-related articles which have currently not been included. I recently added a whole lot more to the relevant categories. In conclusion, I propose:

That either this article be removed from Wikipedia 1.0, or that every known Adventist article be included - that is, all those in Category:Seventh-day Adventist Church and its subcategories. -Colin MacLaurin 14:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The intention is that every known Adventist article should be included. MyNameIsNotBob 07:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's the street address for the CSDA church in Canada?

It has been alleged that there is a CSDA church in Canada. If that is true, it should be easy to cite a physical address. What is it? --E.Shubee 01:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You could always send an email to the website and ask. I want you to notice something, and I am sure the other editors have already. First you said this Church did not even exist, then when a picture was provided, you said, "It's only the size of a gas station." Then you said it was not notable, then that this, that and the other thing was wrong with it. This article is not designed for your personal satisfaction, and every time you are shown to be wrong about some accusation or another, you find something else to complain about. Your statements have bordered and, at times crossed, the line of personal attacks on individuals in both your website and your statements about various editors here on Wikipedia. I ask you to kindly desist from your current activities. Zahakiel 05:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I have clearly stated why I don't believe that a Canadian CSDA church exists. Note: You are required to prove notability. If you can't even provide a verifiable address, then it should be obvious to almost everyone that your article is a hoax. --E.Shubee 05:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

E.Shubee, please stop linking to your everythingimportant.org site. It is not achieving anything. Also please cease the incessant trollsome behaviour on Adventist affiliated pages. If this article is a hoax, it is probably one of the best executed hoaxes I have ever seen. Why would a fictitious denomination have such an expansive website? MyNameIsNotBob 07:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Four persons and a prominent sign on a converted gas station do not constitute a denomination.

What constitutes an expansive website? How large must a website be to satisfy Wikipedia's standard of notability?

There are twelve references used to support Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church, none of them even mention a Canadian Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church. Having a website listed at http://members.tripod.com/torah_zealots/sacred_names/ doesn't make the listee famous does it? If there is no mention of Creation SDA notability anywhere, how do you rationalize the lack of notability? According to Wikipedia policy, a Wikipedia article must be verifiable. The truth is, I am being harassed just for pointing out that there isn't even a verifiable physical address or picture of the disputed Canadian Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church.

What kind of a Christian gets angry at the opportunity to share the exact location of his church and when sacred services are scheduled? --E.Shubee 20:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me get this straight... YOU are claiming to be the victim of harassment?? No one is forcing you to attempt to contribute to this entry. I am not angry that you asked for the location of the Church; I merely said you may email the website owner and ask him where the address of the meetings are held - I live in Florida, not Canada, and have never had occasion or desire to ask. If you are unwilling to do this, having a burden to know where CSDAs meet in British Columbia, what you are now claiming amounts to willful ignorance. And again with this "four persons" nonsense from the out-of-date statement of several years ago... this is a childish and foolish misuse of dated, poorly utilized resources in a misguided attempt to disseminate falsehood. By the way, the word "denomination" does not appear in the entry; a "movement" is different from a denomination (the Church does not maintain this as an accurate label) and the two are separated by far more significant concepts than the number of members, so it is a moot point re: the members and the gas station... and we've been over this before.

You continue to switch back and forth regarding whether or not you consider this Church notable, even if it is only for what you consider "fraud;" but it has become abundantly clear that you will say whatever is convenient at that moment to cast negative aspersions upon it, believing that you are on some kind of personal crusade against the individuals and groups that you consider "apostate Adventists." This entirely disqualifies you as an objective contributor to any Adventist-related site, as your past offerings have made manifestly obvious. Zahakiel 04:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no desire to contact a person who professes unparalleled righteousness yet has been judged by the World Intellectual Property Organization Arbitration and Mediation Center as having misrepresented the Seventh-day Adventist Church in "bad faith." [3]

Furthermore, I'm not required to substantiate any of your unproven claims. You are. --E.Shubee 05:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Your attitude is increasingly stubborn, E.Shubee. Please consider the nature of your remarks before making them, your last comment borders on a personal attack. It would be in your best interest to go and make some constructive contributions to wikipedia before continuing in your campaign against everything Adventist on this site. Then you might earn some respect from other editors. MyNameIsNotBob 06:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Walter McGill believes

Walter McGill believes:

• That his group has achieved complete victory over known sins.

• That the Seventh-day Adventist church is Babylon.

• That he has a mandate from God to call true Adventists out of Babylon to join his organization.

• That the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists is issuing the mark of the beast, thus fulfilling Revelation 13:16-17.

MyNameIsNotBob's editorial support of Walter McGill's hoax is extreme, militant anti-Adventism. I am a true Seventh-day Adventist. He supports the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church hoax by purposely overlooking Wikipedia rules on notability and verifiability. --E.Shubee 14:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

What Walter McGill or the CSDA Church believe are religious issues, and have no place in a discussion of whether or not a Wikipedia article is useful or warranted. That you consider yourself a "true Seventh-day Adventist" is immaterial to anything but your own convictions, which you are free to have... but does not reflect on anything to do with this article. I find it curious, though, that you give Gospel import to the "judgment" of the World Intellectual Property Organization against a religious organization, believing them capable of deciding what is done in "bad faith" (a secular organization judging a church?). This is not something I believe "true" Seventh-day Adventists are capable of doing... but I'd be willing to discuss that with you in a more appropriate setting.

Though I would not agree with your reasons, you conceded that the CSDA movement was notable:

"I also retract my previous error in saying that the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church lacks notability." [23 October 2006]

As for verifiable, references continue to be added. This process would have gone a lot faster had there not been a large number of repeated, irresponsible accusations and attempts to include personal attacks against the organization, its members, and other independent Wikipedia editors attempting to retain or include an objective statement of facts. Zahakiel 16:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Unlike what you have written, the judgments of the World Intellectual Property Organization Arbitration and Mediation Center have both notability and verifiability.

Please understand the context. I said, "Notorious deception, delusion and fraud does meet the minimum threshold of notability." But the article isn't written that way. The hoax in the current article is that Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church presents itself as a legitimate organization. The facts are that they have been sued for their illegitimacy.

As for your willingness to prove verifiability, I have asked you for a simple street address for the CSDA church in Canada and you told me to get it myself. --E.Shubee 17:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

No doubt, the WIPO decisions are verifiable and notable; I have no issue with that. My concern is that someone claiming to be a "true Adventist" would give them the authority to determine matters of faith... remember, you are the one who keeps bringing up the beliefs of an individual as a reason to have or not have the entry.

You write: "The hoax in the current article is that Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church presents itself as a legitimate organization. The facts are that they have been sued for their illegitimacy." This is not true. They have been sued because they continue to use the name "Seventh-day Adventist" FOR their organization. That there IS such an organization, and that it has members and operates as a Church is the reason why the Conference took an interest in the first place. They may not want the Church to call itself an "Adventist" Church, but they are not questioning the existence of said relgious system.

You write: "As for your willingness to prove verifiability, I have asked you for a simple street address for the CSDA church in Canada and you told me to get it myself." That's right... get it yourself; it's available, I am sure, from the site owner. I don't know it. By the way, laziness and/or unwillingness to dialogue with people you consider "beneath you" is not evidence for the non-existence of something. Now, I think this has gone on long enough... you are the only person raising such absurd objections, so I do not consider it a matter worth wasting time on. Zahakiel 19:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verify

If a reliable source is not found to substantiate the existance of this movement in a very short period of time I will nominate it for deletion. None of the current sources substantiate the existance of this movement. JBKramer 16:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Notorious deception, delusion and fraud does meet the minimum threshold of notability. Legal documents have been cited on a despised website [4] that proves to a high degree of certainty that Walter McGill a.k.a. Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church misrepresents himself as a legitimate Seventh-day Adventist Church. [5] [6] The author of the Wikipedia article admits that the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church was formed in 1988 and had only 4 baptized members in the United States in December of 2003. The current article need only be amended to state the true facts of the case. --E.Shubee 17:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the church is listed among several others that use "sacred names" by an independent site, http://members.tripod.com/torah_zealots/sacred_names/ would indicate that they are known to other communities. I do agree, however, that more should be added to bolster this singular reference. I will include the facts of the WIPO arbitration about the CSDA websites and the legal documents regarding the current lawsuit by the General Conference of SDAs in a neutral tone (this is not been done before), time permitting. Zahakiel 21:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Tripod sites are not reliable sources. JBKramer 21:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

What about the photographic evidence that Walter McGill is the pastor of the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church and has a respectable following? --E.Shubee 21:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

To JB - Understood. There are a number of references not currently available on the internet (e.g., newsletters by independent Adventist groups) that mention court cases and disputes over domain names to be added. There are also official documents pertaining to those cases;they were previously added by a hostile editor in a non-neutral tone, so I will re-add them using more acceptable terminology. See below:

To Shubert - you have been repeatedly warned by a number of editors and administrators about trying to use that link for anything productive. Zahakiel 22:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Walter McGill, the link that exposes you meets Wikipedia standards. Your article does not. --E.Shubee 22:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

My name is David Aguilar; contrary to your constant allegations, I am not the same person as Walter McGill, nor am I updating this article (I did not initiate it, as the history shows) on his behalf. Please take your personal conflicts with individuals (especially if they are not me) off of this site. Zahakiel 22:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Your claim to not be Walter McGill is irrelevant because Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church is a church of mirrors that fraudulently masquerades as an association of multiple churches. [7]. In other words, your personal endorsement of Walter McGill and everything else you say can't be considered more honorable than the hoax he promotes through supposedly independent domain names. --E.Shubee 00:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry you feel that way. But now I would prefer (in the future) if you must address me, that you call me by either my editor handle or my real name. Thank you for your courtesy in this regard, and you would not wish to be promoting false information, I am sure. Now, I don't have the energy to invest in an edit war at the moment, so your patience is appreciated. Zahakiel 00:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not see a verification that this church exists from a reliable source. Please provide one below. Do not provide anything else. Do so now. JBKramer 01:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The existence of a court case, as previously noted above and on the page, is sufficient notice that the church is not a made up entity. Ansell 07:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legal Controversy section

I have added a section called "Legal controversy" intended to summarize the legal issues facing this organization, both on and off the internet. The usual hostile editor has been attempting to split the two issues described into separate sections for the sole purpose of introducing more derrogatory terms in the article than is warranted (the WIPO decision, for example, is quoted verbatim in several places), and has shown himself unwilling to listen to other editors' warnings and advice regarding his contributions. In order to keep this article as short, but informative as possible, I believe it is reasonable to simply summarize ALL the appropriate data under one heading, and avoid using unnecessarily prejudicial terms simply because one individual happens not to like this Church and its members. The editor in question has made work on this article something of a trial, at every turn seeking to provide information that is either false or of an inappropriately inflammatory nature. I would prefer that as neutral a set of terms be used to describe the issues involved without unnecessary "help" from an individual who has already made some serious accusations against this Church, other editors, and myself personally. Zahakiel 19:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no controversy. The World Intellectual Property Organization Arbitration and Mediation Center found Walter McGill a.k.a. Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church guilty of misleading consumers. It's a direct quote taken verbatim from their published judgment. No one with any notability says otherwise. --E.Shubee 20:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Splitting it into two is okay; I just do not want the article to have undue length. In any event, I agree with the third party alteration; I have removed the now redundant subheading under WIPO. Zahakiel 20:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The WIPO ruling is clearly against Walter McGill and not against domain names. --E.Shubee 21:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The ruling is ON the domain names, as the section heading rightly states. Your alterations have the appearance of pettiness. It was unnecessary and reflects your personal biases. Zahakiel 21:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Call on a senior editor to decide. The WIPO ruling against Walter McGill is precise and directly relevant. The title, "WIPO Ruling on Domain Names" is gibberish. --E.Shubee 21:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not mind if another editor decides it. I think both are "correct," but that the original is less personally worded. I disgree that it is "gibberish" since it uses standard English and conveys exactly what the ruling was on. In addition, the article is about the Church, and not Walter McGill - you seem to believe that one is limited to the other, (and highly dislike both) but that is not so. The domain names in question were official Church domains, and therefore I believe the first heading is more relevant. I am not looking for conflict, but I believe entries on Wikipedia should be worded as professionally as possible. Zahakiel 21:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Listen, Eugene. I'm the one who changed the title to "WIPO Ruling on Domain Names" (and started the article in the first place). I am not a member of this Church, have never even met a person of this Church in real life, and don't *want* to be a member of this Church. This isn't a conspiracy to give the CSDA Church a good name, it's an attempt maintaining a completely neutral point of view. I don't understand your personal vendetta against these people, but please leave your bias out of the article. Oh, and I changed "WIPO ruling against Walter McGill" because Mr. McGill wasn't introduced before that section heading and the WIPO case dealt with the issue of the CSDA domain names.Camael 21:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)