User talk:Bytebear

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I will respond on this page to comments, unless you ask that I respond on your talk page.

[edit] You are SOOOOOO right

My collection of work is enormous. Seriously enormous. Because of that one particular person and the way he conducts what is presented as official Wikipedia policy, I will not be contributing any more of my photography. I've been trying to figure this system out. I thought I might have found where I can make a positive contribution of some lasting good and that feeling is completely and utterly gone.

You question needs some serious answers. To wit: Ok, so if I am required to use the GFDL-self, then why have the other options available for upload?

If that option is left on the upload page, some other clue needs to be given that an automatic speedy delete is forth-coming. I was trying very, very hard to properly create a page because the very first page I created here was tagged as a speedy delete. Even with what I thought was paranoid caution for my second page, something turns out to have been done incorrectly. Lucky me, a jerk managed to come in and sour my entire attitude about contributing. Oh, and for what it's worth, the guy has some serious inability to read the printed word and yet has the unmitigated gall to inform other people that something was explicit or could not be more clear.

I'll massage other people's text. I'll proof-read or fact-check, but I'm done trying to contribute any real work. TeraGram 06:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I am going to look into it. If I find more difinitive rules, I will let you know. Bytebear 18:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, according to Wikipedia rules found here Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags#For_image_creators, they say "Ideally, we would like you to license your work under a "free" license — with as few restrictions as possible.", however even if you give permission to Wikipedia, if you don't sicense it as free, they will delete it. So they are slowly getting more strict. It's sad really, they are restricting a lot of content that people would be willing to share, but wikipedia wants to essentially own their content, at the same time claiming no ownership of anything. Strange. it seems like a catch 22 to me. I have yet to decide if I want to post pictures or not. Convince me. Bytebear 18:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ccf link in PETA

Why did you remove the wikilink? You said yourself that "See also" should be used for wikipedia links, and as clearly stated in my comment on the PETA talk page, it's wiki convention not to use external links when we can use an inline link. Jean-Philippe 01:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. I didn't realize one was a web link and the other a wikilink. I have reverted. However, I copied the description of the weblink to the wikilink to make them consistant and avoid POV. -BB

By favoring their own description of themselves as opposed to a neutral and factually correct description, you are in effect being POV. You also omitted to mention the group is opposed to PETA's agenda like l0b0t did, which make it worthless in the context of the article and nothing more than publicity for CCF. Jean-Philippe 01:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That is why I have changed the description to the wiki page description. -BB

Yay, I'm a slow typer. I just noticed your changes, if what I read on the talk page is correct then the matter is fine. Jean-Philippe 01:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Yay!

[edit] Deletion of text at Temple (Mormonism)

Bytebear,

I have noticed your persistent deletion of a portion of the text at Temple (Mormonism), along with your assertions that the text you are deleting is POV.

Please note that such deletion is inappropriate and outside the bounds of the WP:NPOV policy. Deleting material under the guise of POV is specifically addressed in the FAQ: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Lack_of_neutrality_as_an_excuse_to_delete. Specifically, the FAQ also addresses articles on religion and notes that there are specific guidelines as to what these types of articles should contain.

Please discontinue deleting text from the article, and I suggest you read the WP:NPOV policy carefully before asserting accusations of POV in error. Reswobslc 00:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

My response is this: If you had read my comments instead of blindly reverting my changes you would have read that my main arguemnt for removal of your text was two part 1) the reference was not verifiable and came from an unreputable source and 2) the inclusion added nothing to the article but sensationalism. Note carefully: NEITHER OF THESE ARGUEMENTS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH POV. Although, I do think you have a very biased POV and are adding crap to the article just to get your digs in. If you look at the talk page, there are several, in fact many that agree with my position. Examples:

I'm curious what the academic value is of including death penalties overview in this article? Is it to show that the temple ceremonies have changed? Is it that the information is sensational? Not to compare, but I'm looking at the Freemasonry pages, and not only don't they discuss their ceremony, but they don't discuss similar oaths. Why do we go into so much detail here, when other, similarly compared "secretive" ceremonies aren't even on wikipedia? Just curious what the point is of including it here, when wikipedia has declined to do it elsewhere? Is it that relevant to the end reader? -Visorstuff 18:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It would appear you have an agenda that prevents you from acknowledging facts when they are your own. It is unfortunate, but it is what we risk when building a public encyclopedia; we will have bright people that attempt promote neutral writing and then we will have people with private agendas that are not interested in quality writing or facts. Storm Rider (talk) 21:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me this material is POV and thus should be omitted, not to mention there are more appropriate places to present such information. 66.151.81.244 21:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way you state :"WP admins will support me on this one - every religion from Buddhism to Catholicism has people that want to whitewash the articles or to present a non-historical view of the way things are today - which is against the goal of an encyclopedia and is why Wikipedia has a specific policy to address it."

I am an admin. Consensus and this policy declare that one err on the side of documentation, not hearsay, and that sacred things (regardless of religion) be treated with respect. I think that teh appropriate links policy would state that the Packham link would be hearsay. Especially with such incorrect information such as the following paragraph to the throat-slitting one:

" The church when I left had no family home evening, no three-hour block of meetings, no correlation committee, no "Strengthening the Members" committee, no Blacks (they were called "Negroes" then).

Either Packham left the church prior to 1900, or he loses credibility about his knowledge of the church with this sentence. Facts: In 1915 President Joseph F. Smith instituted "Home Evening" [4]. Formal organization of a Priesthood Correlation Program occurred in 1908, and the first black I know of that was baptized into the church took place in 1830 (Elijah Abel was baptized in 1831, and held the priesthood, as did his children and grandchildren until the priesthood was extended to all worthy men).

Now all of that is irrelevant aside from finding credible sources (the Tanners are probalby the best for this one). I believe that you treat these articles with respect (thank-you by the way), but I think this argument about this detail explores the question on how much detail do we want to go into on these articles. The rest of the article is quite general, this is one of the first "details" given - and as such makes it look like a major part of the endowment - which it is not. I look forward to hearing more on your thoughts above. -Visorstuff 23:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems you are the only one who doesn't get it. Also if you had read carefully, I don't really care what you reveal about the secrest temple rites. I just think they should support the article, which clearly they do not. Now if the paragraph was re-written, which I am thinking about doing, to where all bases can be covered without weasel words or phrases plopped in to shock and titilate the reader, then it would be fine with me.

[edit] Dispute at anti-Mormon

In order to gain a consensus concerning the issue at anti-Mormon, would you please comment here? --uriah923^(talk) 04:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of temples

Good catch on using the userspace transclusion on the no longer operating temples. --Trödel 04:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It's a lot better just by your efforts with the template. I did notice that the Notes label and the notes do not align when the text line wraps. -B

continuing table discussion here - I've tried that and I don't see what I can do to make it better. if you want to try stuff out - feel free to edit my my sandbox --Trödel 17:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Original Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		For your tireless efforts to improve The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. Lethargy 00:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LDS church

The POV being pushed is strictly the POV of the LDS church ... we all know that early church leaders were arrested for various cirmes; that would be a good reason to move out of those jurisdictions. I will not sit by idly and allow the LDS church's POV to be used in these articles. Duke53 | ^Talk 22:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC) p.s If the baptism stuff is covered elsewhere I propose that the whole section be deleted.

I see main articles and cross articles, so the main article should mention baptism for the dead as a key belief, but have the baptism article cover all aspects of it. This is just so all information is available and so articles aren't huge.

As to early church leaders, it's fine to point out their arrests, but 1) the article is not about Joseph Smith or any other church leader and 2) their arrests were not a reason for abandoning settlements as far as I know. I am open to verifiable references that prove me wrong.

As to whether these arrests were valid or warrented should also be included in any article about them. For example, Smith was for the most part under extradition for an assasinatin atempt on Lilburn Boggs which he was later determined to be innocent. So there are two sides ot every story, and I think the editors have done a good job covering all of them. Its not just what you put in wikipedia, but where it is put. so think about where the information would be best served. History of the LDS Church seems more appropriate than an overview article, IMHO. Bytebear 22:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal on Criticisms of Mormonism page

It would help if you would explain your reasoning for adding a merge proposal with the Controversies page. Thanks, Storm Rider ^(talk) 23:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I did, but was not logged in, so it is probably listed as anonymous. I know this has been discussed before, but I still don't see the need for two articles. particularly one that is just a bullet list. Maybe List of Mormon Controveries? Bytebear 23:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I see no need at all for the Controversies article; it is a list, nothing more. Do you know if lists are appropriate for articles? Some of the older editors will dislike the merger, but let's let them speak for themselves. Storm Rider ^(talk) 02:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Are there 'controversies' sections in articles for other religions? If not then get rid of this one; if there are then I say that this one should stand as well. Duke53 | ^Talk 02:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the article Controversy there is a list of specific controversies, and the only specific religion mentioned is Mormonism with two links (both redirecting to Controversies regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and Jehovah's Witnesses: controversies. Other issues are more conceptual like King James Only Controversy (disambiguation) or about a specific event like George W. Bush military service controversy.

I personally think throwing all of Mormonism over the coals is a bad idea because it would be a huge article to fully explore each issue, or it becomes a basic list which isn't really an article. I think the prefered method is to include controvercial issues in main articles, or hava an article about each specific issue. I think in the LDS article, the Mountain Meadow Massacre is a good example of how it should be done. Mention the issue in NPOV and link to further information. Unfortunately, what happens is both sides of the arguement keep adding thier points and the section gets bloated. This is why I am hesitant to even put issues on the main article unless it relates directly to the issue at hand. A lot of people regard this as POV by omission, but there are several dozen articles on LDS beliefs. Combine that with articles about the LDS Movement, Mormon offshoot religions, or historical articles not related directly to the LDS church, and you have way too much information to handle on one page.

I think we should weave in any information in the "Controversies" section into the article or omit it (for example I think isses other Christians have about the Trinity is really irrelivant to the main LDS article). Currently there are three controvery articles about the LDS church that I know of: Anti-Mormon, an article about history of anti-Mormon issues and how it is presented, etc. Criticism of Mormonism which I can see getting way too big if we cover every issue in the article, and Controversies regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which is basically a list of controverial LDS issues. Bytebear 02:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok. So my vote is: No "controveries" section within an individual article, but put the controverial info where it belonds within the article. Separate articles for each issue so they can be addressed fully. List article for each of the separate controveries. Get rid of the "Controveries" article. Bytebear 03:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and if you want to see a really POV article, check out People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Bytebear 03:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Family Section on LDS Church Page

I'm having trouble with one of the paragraphs. By the way, thanks a TON for the work on it. It looks great! The problem paragraph deals with the support groups that are not affiliated with the Church. The way it read originally, it seemed as if one might imply that they are supported by the Church, when in fact they are not. Here is the original paragraph:

"The Church's opposition to homosexuality has spawned support groups for gay men and women like Affirmation and Gamofites. More recently, a small liberal branch of Mormonism has been established calling itself Reform Mormonism."

I rewrote it like this:

"The Church's opposition to homosexual relations has resulted in the creation of multiple LDS-oriented support groups not affiliated with the Church. These groups include both those dedicated to affirming gay identity, such as Affirmation and Gamofites, as well as those dedicated to helping those who wish to change such as Evergreen International."

The main reason for the change is that if we include information on the pro-affirmation groups here, it seems a balance to include information on pro-change groups. I'm ok with that. My problem is that it seems to start getting too long in proportion to the rest of the section. The rest of the family section doesn't go into significant detail about other programs. Again, reference above where I talk about how these groups aren't affiliated with the Church. Hope I don't sound critical of you. I think you're doing a great job. You can respond on my talk page if you'd like. :) Sylverdin 19:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello! I saw your ideas for shortening the article and I like them. I apologize that I can't give you more feedback on all of them, but I have worked on the family section. I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to it, but it looks good to me. Concerning the family section, I have a hard time putting it under "culture." The LDS teachings on family are an essential part of the beliefs section. In fact, the whole subject of the Church's World Wide Leadership Training last year was the family. I renamed it simply "family" and put Eternal Marriage and the Proclamation at the beginning. I think we need to keep those parts. I'm unsure about the rest of the section, so I left it alone. Maybe take out the part on same-gender issues. Or make a new article about it. FHE seems to fit, but maybe could be shortened. :D Sylverdin 22:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I like your idea of a separate FHE article. I suggested separating the doctrines of Eternal Families from the cultural aspects of the church. For example, FHE, although a church program is not essential (per-say) for salvation. Also, there are so many programs about strengthening families, that it seems the main LDS article is not big enough to handle it all. I think we can blend the info on to one paragrah in the LDS article, and then separate the doctrines for the practices in supporting articles. I will look over your changes right now, and thanks for the help. I have been hesitant to remove anything for fear of starting up another revert war. Bytebear 23:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing a quote

Do not edit quotes! I don't know where that 'rule' you quoted ("You cannot annotate a quote with bold! Clearly POV. let the quote speak for itself") came from but I copied the quote I cited exactly the way it is written ... by changing it you have changed what the ORIGINAL author intended. If you revert it again I will be reporting your action to the admins. Duke53 | ^Talk 01:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the quote is not cited correctly. The actal source is "Comprehensive History of the Church, vol. 1, page 441" which is what should be cited. Second, the emphasis is by the author of the webite, which is HUGELY POV because it's an anti-Mormon source. The reference should change and the empahsis removed. Bytebear 02:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Care to show me your version? Until then the one I displayed will have to do. Duke53 | ^Talk 02:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

HELLO? The website specifically points to the citation in the article. It was a quote from a speech. I don't recall BOLD being used in speeches, do you? The emphases was added by the website author, and is not part of the speech. Now, if you want to discuss it further and avoid the 3R rule, take it to the talk page. In the meantime I will see if I can find a web version of the original quote. Bytebear 02:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you recall inflections of voice being used for emphasis in a speech? ... BOLD = inflection when written. Do you suppose that this guy whispered the speech?Duke53 | ^Talk 03:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Template:Wr Duke53 | ^Talk 03:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... what did I remove? Find the original source. Move the discussion to the LDS talk page. Bytebear 03:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. Thanks Leth! Bytebear 03:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Duke, please read the edit summary, it was NOT a legitimate use of that template, and I was the one who removed it. --Lethargy 03:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Issues

I agree. If it turns into a revert-war, we'll need to set up mediation; otherwise, it looks like it's devolved into weirdness and sexism ("Lady"?) rather than a discussion of sources or of policy. Which really isn't worth the time of anyone involved.

I appreciate your support. It felt a lot better to see someone else's name in there. --Masamage 05:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of web application frameworks

I reorganized the lists of frameworks. In doing so, I overwrote your table that you created. I'll put the table back in a minute. Sorry.

Wdflake 22:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I was freaking out, cuz I was moving some stuff around too, and noticed that sections were being moved around. I do think that .Net should be moved to the N section alphabetically though. Bytebear 22:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Tell me if this sounds like a dumb idea. I'm thinking that since many of the tables are getting more complicated, screen real-estate is needed. I'm thinking of shortening the displayed urls from something like http://www.oracle.com/technology/consulting/9iservices/jheadstart.html down to www.oracle.com. Is that a good or bad idea? --Wdflake 01:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Look at what I did for PHP. I shortened the links to a name, "Home page" mostly, and added columns to better compare the frameworks. There is a lot of info to fill in however. Bytebear 01:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] November 2006 Mormon Collaboration

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been selected as the November Mormon collaboration of the month. I look forward to working with you on it. --uriah923^(talk) 21:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoo hoo. I hope we can streamline the content and get it to be a featured article again. Bytebear 21:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peter Pan (film)

Hi Bytebear, since there is no earlier version of Peter Pan than the 1924, I thought it's right to move it to (film), after naming conventions. That's a redirect page in need of cleaning. Is this a matter to discuss or ask administrators? It's no big deal for one film, but I find this problem more often with films. Hoverfish 00:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the inclusion of the film link. I had no idea there was a silent version, and to have it influence Walt Disney is huge. The issue I have with just saying (film) is that it is not necessarily the earliest film that gets the non-standard naming convention, but the most likely version a user might be looking for. So if I search for "Peter Pan Film" it should most likely redirect to the Disney version as this is the most popular. Same thing for (film), In this case (film) goes to redirect as there are several films and so I have no preference. So if one of the films is going to have (film) rather than (1924 film) or (1956 film), I would give it to the Disney version. I actually like the consistancy of the date being in the title because there are several versions. I do think that "Peter Pan movie" and "Peter Pan film" should redirect to the Disney version page. Bytebear 00:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, one might argue that they should redirect to Hook. You can always do another disambiguous page called Peter Pan (film) that lists all the film versions, without all the other references to Peter Pan. Just a thought. Bytebear 00:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying this point. I had misunderstood the guidelines on this. Hoverfish 00:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

There are no hard and fast rules, but for the most part, if people can agree on naming conventions, then everything works out. There is actually a bit of a discussion on Bill O'Reilly because in the US he is a well known political comentator, but in Australia he is a famous Cricket player. So compromises are made. Go figure. Bytebear 00:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plan of Salvation and First principles

In case you don't see what I wrote on the talk page, I completely agree with you on the need to shorten The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. Here is what I wrote:

"I was about to say that the First principles and ordinances of the Gospel section be rewritten to be much shorter, but I see you beat me to it. I completely agree: this and the Plan of Salvation section need to be a lot less wordy, we should try to keep it as simple as possible and avoid deviating from what the sources state. I'm thinking we should use a sledgehammer rather than a chisel and completely rewrite these sections."

Not that I look forward to the task of rewriting this, but it is totally needed. --Lethargy 23:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] temples and CJC

no problem - you did a great job with that Infobox - the coding on that stuff requires concentration I usually don't get. I am on a crusade to make articles CJC's main article better like JS - and use proper sub articles -but it is difficult to know where to start. --Trödel 03:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I am setting up other templates for the temple pages, so hopefully they will be easier to manage. I agree that many articles need work. The Relief Society article, for example needs work. I think everyone focuses on the main articles about Mormonism, but it should be comprehensive. In fact, I think the big articles should be synopsis sections of other more specific articles. Bytebear 03:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] maps

dude - I love the maps - they rule! great job ! --Trödel 13:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, well find me blank maps of Mexico, Asia, Canada and South America, California and Utah! I am working on Australia. Is there a cartography project on Wikipedia, because we need it. Bytebear 17:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] lamp article

the information in the software section you added is pointless. reading the top summary paragraph from the linked articles is enough. it's just pointless to add a bunch of information that doesn't need to be there. it's clutter. ColdFusion650 17:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Each article should have enough informaton to tell the reader enough about the subject for understanding. Telling them that L stands for Linux means nothing to someone who doesnt know what Linux is. So you need a section to summarize Linux, and then a link for further information. Otherwise, the article should not exist at all. Having a section on Linux is much more important than an arbitrary list of acronymns describing obscure web configurations. Bytebear 19:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

They would know that Linux is an operating system. It just seems like you want to add information just for the sake of making a major contribution to an article, not because it's needed. A link is all that's needed. Until it gets removed for good, I'm trimming out the most excess parts. ColdFusion650 16:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How many encycolpedias or articles on here do you know that don't explain what it is they are talking about. I suppose we could have it just be one line, that says Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP and leave it at that. Don't assume the reader knows what you are talking about just because you are familiar with the subject. I think your edits are appropriate though, but a bullet list is just not an article. Bytebear 21:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mormon mysticism

Byte, could you look at the above article. In reading it I have found that it is basically the work of one editor that says he is a Mormon and a chaos magician. I am not too concerned about his personal interests, but I am concerned when he takes those interests and says that they are a significant interest within Mormonism. I would also encourage you to vote on the deletion vote. Thanks for your assistance. Storm Rider ^(talk) 23:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:List LDS Temple USA East

For the Template, Columbus, OH and St. Louis are way out of place. (Columbus is in Missouri, St. Louis in Arkansas.) Naraht 09:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I did all of the dots in a couple days, so wasn't worried too much about total accuracy. If you would like to edit them, you can check out the editing Java program that I used, and just update the data. I don't have time to fix them right now, but if you have further questions, I will be happy to tell you more on how I made the maps. Bytebear 19:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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