Talk:Brisk yeshivas and methods
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[edit] Condensing bios
Considering Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik and Chaim Soloveitchik now have pages, how about condensing their biographies here and creating new pages for the Beis ha-Levi and Reb Moshe Soloveitchik? JFW | T@lk 11:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC) ok, i'll work on it one day.
[edit] Examples of Lomdus
At the end of the article there are two examples of Brisker lomdus. They are unsourced, and unless someone adds the source we have a WP:CITE problem. JFW | T@lk 13:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
ok done!--Rachack 22:10, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
What about any of the next generation? Shouldn't there be at least links to the American or Israeli pages? micha 20:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Possibly, but things fan out and get quite confusing at some point.
Here's an idea: maybe make a list of all yeshivas around today that claim to be Brisk-related (or off-Brisk), explaining the connection? Everything from YU to R' Tzvi Kaplan, e.g. "YU: had lecturers R' Moshe Soloveitchik, then later R' Joseph Dov and finally R' Aharon (all zt'l)." "Or HaChaim in Kew Gardens Hills: Roshei Yeshiva are R' Daniel Lander, a Talmid of R' Joseph Dov, and R' Yehuda Kraus, a Talmid of R' Berel."
- You're taka right. Maybe you should take it upon yourself to put that together. I don't have the resources/knowledge to do it. --Rachack 03:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rav Chaim Volozhiner
Somebody added R' Chaim Volozhiner; could they please explain his connection to the Soloveitchiks? Right now it looks very much out of place.
- there are descendants of rav chaim volozhiner --Rachack 19:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Nu ... good ... Firstly, the article should explain how the Bais HaLevi was related to R' Chaim Volozhiner. But more importantly, this article is supposed to be about BRISK, Briskers, the Brisk mehalech, etc.. While I've heard talmidim of R' Yoshe Ber talk about "Moshe kibel torah misinai umesara lihoshua ... to the Vilna Gaon, to R' Chaim Volozhiner, to the Briskers, to R' Yoshe Ber"; I think we could all safely agree that R' Chaim Volozhiner was not associated with the town of Brisk, was not named "Soloveitchik", and is generally not directly linked to the Brisker mehalech. So perhaps in discussing Solovetichik yichus, you could mention the R' Chaim Volozhiner connection in passing; but I don't think he belongs in our chronological list of "Briskers."
It took me a few days to build up the guts to do it, but I've gone ahead and done the modification. If you really don't like it, go ahead and change it back, I won't put up a fight.
- --Rachack 03:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)גם זו לטובא
[edit] Clean-up tag
Unless somebody justifies why this article has a clean-up tag attached to it, I will soon remove the tag because I don't see any problems with the article. --רח"ק | Talk 20:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- The article is messy in everything from arbitrary content emphasis (e.g. this should be an article on either the yeshivas or the dynasty - not both) to the title name (Brisk (Yeshiva) or Brisk (Dynasty) would be more appropriate) to unconventional naming (e.g. "Rabbi Joseph Dov (HaLevi) Soloveitchik (the first) (1820-1892) who is known by his pen name for his work the Beis HaLevi"; "the 'GRYZ' "; and so forth). See Wikipedia:Manual of Style for more information. Also, using transliterating "ת" as "s" doesn't conform to Wikipedia's standard transliteration conventions for Hebrew (regardless of how Briskers themselves pronounce the letter). HKTTalk 22:36, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
HKT: The article states how names are used by those who use those names which is not against any Wikipedia rules. The rabbis of Brisk are an integral part of their yeshivas whicvh are run very informally without the usual trappings of conventional yeshivas. Obviously you are not aware of the Brisk system that they do not even have formal "yeshivas" and "institutions" in any formal sense since everything is "informal" and revolves around the rabbis themselves and their shiurim. You are being too harsh. The article is trying to convey the "flavor" of things and with time will be improved. IZAK 07:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- People don't normally refer to the Beis HaLevi as "Rabbi Joseph Dov (HaLevi) Soloveitchik (the first)". I added the tag to increase the likelihood of the article being improved. And "obviously," you would be surprised at how familiar I am with Brisk. Nevertheless, if you want to remove the tag, I don't care enough to contest it. HKTTalk 20:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- HKT: It would be great if you could contribute your own knowledge, and editing skills, in improving such an important article that you admit you know so much about! After all, who do you expect will come along and "improve" the article?, only someone who has a real education about the facts involved. Best wishes, IZAK 09:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Content-wise it doesn't need many additions, and many editors could improve the article as needed. The tag would invite them to do so. Unfortunately, I don't currently have the time for this. HKTTalk 17:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] RYBS
This bio is about Brisk Yeshivas. RIETS is not a Brisk Yeshiva. His name should not be included for this reason. 66.93.254.200 16:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
B'mechilas kevodo, this user (see his page) has consistently violated NPOV and vandalized other pages; erasing R' Yoshe Ber here is a blatant case of this -- I have restored the Rov's reference on this page. Your point is valid, if this article is about Yeshivas that identify themselves as "Brisk" per se. (Even then, we could think in terms of yeshivas with heavy Brisk influences, and if you'd include R' Tzvi Kaplan in that list, you'd have no choice but to include RIETS as well.) HOWEVER, I think the point of this article is a bit broader. It was initially written (by me) to describe the Brisk dynasty and Brisk approach; the renaming to "Brisk yeshiva" was done later by someone else. You will see throughout this article that we describe not only the yeshivas, but also the approach and dynasty. Say what you want about RIETS, but everything we know today about the Brisker mehalech, hashkafah, and yichus would be sorely lacking if we erased R' Yoshe Ber, and therefore everything he said or did, due to our political beliefs. I hope I'm not speaking too strongly here, and I welcome others' opinions on the matter. But I think most Wikipedians on this page would agree that it was only right to leave in R' Yoshe Ber. TLMD13 09:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
You are mistakenly branding me for the mistakes of one out of literally many hundreds of other people who use a computer with this IP address. I respect your decision to write about Brisker teachers--a category in which RYBS arguably falls into. But because the title of the article is about Brisker Yeshivas, RIETS cannot be included. Even RYBS's Torah is different from the others mentioned in this article. The latest sefer of RYBS actually shows how RYBS was a baal michadesh, something everyone from Rav Berel and on no longer do out of deference to R' Velvel. The point is, RYBS had a different focus. You are free to change the title so that you can revert my changes or write another article on the subject of disseminators of Brisker Torah. At that rate, you may have to include Roshei Yeshiva like Rav Binyomin Paler (a talmid muvhak of the Brisker Rav and termed by R' Ahron as the amkon hador) and many others, who I would be more than glad to offer you information about, as well. Though I learned in Brisk, I do not have anything against anyone who went RIETS merely because they went to RYBS's yeshiva. Furthermore, though I am in a very small minority, I took the time to learn some of RYBS's Torah. This is not about kannous. Its about factual accuracy. And I think it would not be entirely accurate to brand him either as a Brisker in the pure sense of the word (not merely in the hashkafic sense) or his Yeshiva as a Brisker Yeshiva.
B'micholas kevodo, I think you are the kannoi here. So long as the article is entitled Brisk Yeshiva, RIETS cannot be included. It is factually inaccurate. While no one can help being awe inspired by someone of RYBS's genius, this a matter of metzius. I went through the chiddushin written over in RYBS's name on Sukka. I write it this way because it was CLEARLY not in the style of Brisk (I am not just writing about the way it was written here), and I am sure RYBS was a LOt more clear (as he was legendary for that), thorough and thought out. Nevertheless, it is as Brisk, as, say, R' Yitzchok Sorotzkin's Torah, at the least. I would also be glad to help. But if we are to be cool headed and no kaanoish, we would NOT include RYBS and RMS in this article. DavidCharlesII 14:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- I responded to your comment on my talk page, but I want to reiterate the point here that if the article is to be changed, the discussion must come first. --Eliyak T·C 15:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
If the topic would be Brisk Influences in Yeshivas, or something like that, you would be ONE THOUSAND PERCENT CORRECT. However, the article is about Brisk Yeshivas. RIETS is not a Brisk Yeshiva. It never was. Its maggidei shiurim today CERTAINLY DO NOT GIVE Brisk style shiurim. Anyone who went to Brisk or learned a sefer from the Roshei Yeshiva of Brisk Yeshivas would acknowledge that.
As an aside, and this is important, I want to add that Brisk does not mean debth. On the contrary, its not as deep. Rav Shechter's shiurim--though I cannot state this with authority becuase I never heard one--can be deeper. The point is, his shiur is just not a Brisker shiur. I hope you understand that this issue is NOT meant to malign RIETS--not as an insitution or its students--it is merely to maintain a distinction that is too often blurred by well meaning people who have never really had the Brisk experience as it is in Eretz Yisroel. 66.93.254.200 15:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Morai V'Rabosai, let me fill in some information here, please. I was the original author of this article just over two years ago, and the article was simply titled "Brisk." It began because the article on RYBS talked about his connection to the Brisk dynasty/mehalech/etc., and that user had created a link to Brisk, but no article existed there, so I began one. That article was about the dynasty and hashkafah/mehalech, from the Beis HaLevi to R' Chaim and then tracing R' Moshe/RYBS and R'Velvel. Fine and good. It makes plenty of sense to have discussion before modifying, but the modification here was the REMOVAL of RYBS (and now R' Moshe too, I see), who had been on this page for more than two years. I felt it was only right to restore this. Notice even now that their bios were removed, they're still in the family tree, and a great deal of comments on hashkofo and the like still quote RYBS (particularly in regards to how to view R' Chaim Brisker.)
What happened since the original article is that someone retitled this article "Brisk Yeshiva", opened with a quote about Brisk kollel, etc. -- several Wikipedians attempted to request a cleanup of this page, as it's become a very messy cholent (my original article, while incomplete, was at least homogeneous), but that wasn't too popular. Nu. If this page is entirely about "Brisk yeshivas", then what is the Beis HaLevi doing here? Did he have a Brisk yeshiva? (While the Brisker derech played a role at various points in Volozhin's history, I don't think any of us would call Volozhin a Brisk yeshiva!) Earlier in the discussion, you'll see what we'd considered was a listing of Brisk offshoots and yeshivas with heavy Brisk affiliations or influences (similar to the way that Merkaz HaRav Kook considers itself a descendant of Volozhin). But for the time being, we'll have to accept that this article is a cholent of Brisker derech, Brisker dynasty, and Brisker yeshivas. And somewhere in all of that, it's only right to include RYBS and R' Moshe (good heavens! R' Yoshe Ber I understand, but why did we have to take out R' Moshe?). If someone would like to split the articles into Brisk dynasty vs. Brisk yeshiva and do further reorganization, ma tov uma naim. But in the meantime, with the article ba'asher hoo sham, I most seriously hope that we'll come to the conclusion that RYBS and R' Moshe should be reinstated here. TLMD13 21:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
Very well. Just to further the case here: if you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Soloveitchik, you'll see that the phrase "Soloveitchik rabbinic dynasty" links to this page. So like it or not, for now this page is not strictly about Brisk yeshivas, it's about Briskers. I have attempted to accomodate MPOV by adding in the explanation, "while RIETS is not a Brisk yeshiva, it was home to R' Moshe, R' Yoshe Ber, and R' Aharon, who most scholars would say are Briskers." If you'd like to add in "but some say they aren't", fine by me. I've checked with several editors here -- you have repeatedly (both under the anonymous IP and DavidCharles) removed R' Moshe and RYBS after several different editors have restored them. If you persist, you will be in violation of Wiki policy. TLMD13 08:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
Unfortunately, you are in violation of Wikipedia's policy. With the name of the article being Brisk Yeshiva, you must remove RYBS as it is factually incorrect. If you have so much difficulty with maintaining neutrality, I strongly suggest you change the name. Anonomous and I are different people, and I strongly resent your suggestion that I am a liar. Please follow my recomendation, or RYBS and R' Moshe will have to be removed as they were not involved in Yeshivas Brisk. DavidCharlesII 18:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Look, a page on "Brisk yeshivas" is certainly justified in having a section about the "Soloveitchik dynasty" – the entire Soloveitchik dynasty. But see my comment below. --Eliyak T·C 19:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Seforim details
Not very pressing (and not related to the above discussion), but could someone with access to the various Seforim mentioned (GraCh Al HaRambam vs. GraCh al HaShas 'stencil', etc.) clarify the following please? Most Briskers published very little themselves; most was done by students in their name. (E.g. Igros HaGrid and Harrei Kedem both certainly contain RYBS' Torah, but both were collected and published by others.) Now it's fine to include both, but we should indicate the distinction. If I'm not mistaken (though I am away from my usual Seforim library), for example, R' Moshe did himself publish the Imrei Moshe, but not the Chidushei HaGram VehaGrid. Does this make sense? TLMD13 14:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
This is pretty ignorant. The Imrei Moshe was written by Rabbi Moshe Sokolovsky, the Rosh Yeshiva of Brisk and talmid of R' Chaim. It was not written by R' Moshe Soleveitchik. Perhaps you mean Chiddushei HaGram Halavi.
- Woops! I am so embarrassed ... (in Grover voice) ... thanks for pointing that out! But I think the point remains, we may want to draw the distinction between actually published by Rabbi ABC and put together by his talmidim bishmo, posthumously. Regardless, oops and thanks! TLMD13 00:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
[edit] Spelling
I've seen discussion elsewhere about R' Ahron spelling his surname without the 't'; does anyone have a source for R' Moshe or R' Shmuel? I'm not challenging this, just curious. And should we explain the difference in spelling, or just assume readers will either not notice, or understand that there were different spellings? TLMD13 14:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
[edit] Propose move
I propose to move this page to Brisk (movement). How's everyone feel about that? --Eliyak T·C 19:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
- You mean renaming this page, I assume? (Sorry, new with the Wiki terminology here.) Better than "yeshiva" for sure ... again, what happened here is that the original page was about Brisker derech and dynasty (to fill in the link from the RYBS's page), then someone came along and slapped on the "yeshiva" title. I'm not complaining in the least if you change it to "movement", but Idunno, that title is still missing a certain ring ... wish I had something better. Words like "derech" or "yichus" just don't translate properly -- "Brisk path? Brisk lineage"? No matter what we do here, the problem is that we're trying to impose a 21st century structure on something very amorphous. Nu, should be the worst of our problems. Hatzlacha Rabbah! TLMD13 19:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
I would agree to anything that would make the inclusion of RYBS more factually accurate. 71.250.194.153 20:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Maaseh with R' Velvel, Dina D'alma, etc.
Thought it was a good demonstration of the point, and hopefully understandable to a novice. (R' Rakefet used this one soon after introducing Brisk lomdus.) Let me know if you think it's really out of place. TLMD13 10:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
[edit] R' Chaim Brisker & college
I wrote that "the views of R' Chaim and the Bais HaLevi on ...education" are topics of current debate. Since then, I found out that R' Chaim told one talmid he could take a job on Shabbos to get out of Nazi-controlled territory, as it was pikuach nefesh; but he told a different talmid he could not take a scholarship at YU to get out of Europe, because the minus/apikorsus is yehareg v'al ya'avor. From other stories I've heard, it sounds like R' Chaim's only concern was minus/apikorsus. (Which I assume would refer potentially to classics, literature e.g. New Testament, some forms of philosophy, and Bible criticism and the like; college then, including YU, is not college now, including YU.) Just as I wrote, R' Chaim Brisker had been anti-JNF, but that was pre Holocaust and 48, so who knows ... you could make the case, R' Chaim would have nothing against, say, a Touro or something where all they teach is computer programming, I don't know. The question I'm putting out here, regardless, is l'shem emes, should I (or someone else) include something about R' Chaim being anti-college? TLMD13 10:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
Look at the Birkas Shmuel at the end of Kiddushin on the issue of college. He quotes R' Chaim's views on the subject.
- Thanks, will try and get to that soon b'n. Not "this table has dinei cow", but get down and milk it! Thank you. TLMD13 19:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)TLMD13
