Talk:Boy Scouts of America

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	Boy Scouts of America is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Boy Scouts of America article.
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Archives
Page organization issues: September 2005 – February 2006 Controversy issues: January 2004 – December 2005 Other issues: December 2003 – January 2006 January 2006 – March 2006 March 2006 – November 2006

Contents 1 Norman Rockwell and pictures generally 2 "Main Article" lead-ins 3 Last Paragraph in Intro 4 Improvements 5 Reorder the sections?

[edit] Norman Rockwell and pictures generally

Norman Rockwell is mentioned in passing on this page. I suggest somehow highlighting his work for the Boy Scouts, his love for the Boy Scouts, etc. It is yet another way to show how the BSA is a pillar of American life. It includes wonderful pictures, one of which should appear on this page, perhaps one from the cover of Boys Life magazine. Look at the description for A rated pages. They say the article should have great pictures. This article does not, in my opinion, have the best of pictures at this time. A Norman Rockwell will really add quality in appearance and in tying in the BSA with American culture. The BSA is not just an organization; it's a major factor in the American way of life and has been for a long time, and this article should reflect that. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 17:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we can't use a Rockwell painting here just because it looks good. Take a look at the {{art}} tag and check the useage. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

We can't use a cover of Boys Life that happens to include a Rockwell painting? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 14:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Possibly. Compare the one Rockwell image I know is loaded here[1] to the Time cover of [2] West. The licensing on the artwork only allows useage in an article that is specifically obout that piece. The Time cover allows useage in an article that notes the issue represented by the cover. Time may have released article covers in this manner. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Can we just ask Rockwell's heirs and get permission to satify Wikipedia? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 00:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

We can use a painting in an article if there is substantial discussion of the painting. It does not have to be a complete article specifically about the painting, but it does need to be discussion, not just a mention. So, depending on how much room we want to give to the topic, it would be possible to bring it in here. I question, though, whether we want that much discussion here about one painter and his works in this top-level article. Johntex\^talk 00:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Rockwell is not just any painter. He is the epitome of America. The Boy Scouts are the epitome of America. The two merge in beautiful paintings that really set the BSA apart from any other organization. A sentence or two is enough, but it does set the stage for a deeply rooted American institution, and that's what I hope this article conveys, among other things, because it is true. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 01:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Main Article" lead-ins

I am under the impression that when a section in this article (such as origins/history, uniforms or advancement) is associated with a "main article" that it is customary for the lead-in paragraphs of the main article be used as the text in the referring article, as is done with the membership controversies. I would make those changes myself, but they would be major changes so I brought it here to Talk. I actually think that those lead-ins would work quite nicely and would like to see the changes made. --204.113.19.8 22:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right. I will add it to a todo list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last Paragraph in Intro

The 4th paragraph, describing famous scouts, doesn't summerize the organization, does it? Notice how the Girl Scouts of the USA page has a nice section "Impact on American life", which I think would hold these famous people, the Norman Rockwell reference mentioned on this talk page, mention of the List of notable Scouts (and Eagle Scouts) pages, etc, instead of trying to cram it into the organization's summary. Doesn't "11 of the 12 men on the moon were scouts" read like a factoid, not an overview of the organization? Wild Pansy 17:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This article is still in need of a lot of work- we haven't even tried to promote it to GA yet. I do like that section in the GSUSA article and have indeed considered ripping it. This article has developed a lot in the last year. I will be back as soon as I get List of notable Eagle Scouts to featured status. If you want to start it, go ahead. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it needs work. Actually A-class is above GA, but many people have been editing it. Rome wasn't built in a day-;) Rlevse 18:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

i just wanted to add a little bit to the article. Under the OA i inserted brothhood because that is a main role as well.Spo9999 21:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)spo9999

Looks good. I'm going to start an improvement worklist so we can get a sense of where this should go. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement. It is hard for me to just dive in and change someone else's work, I still feel too new! I'll see what I can do :) Wild Pansy 01:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No one editor owns an article or the text thereof. You really can't break anything permanently. If you don't understand how something works, just ask. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements

Here are a few thoughts, please comment and add as you see:

• Add "Impact on American life" like the Girl Scouts of the USA article. Move the last paragraph of the lead-in to this section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Concur. --Smack (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • can someone add another example to the "Derby" about scouting in general, then collect the moonwalkers/presidents/etc together? Wild Pansy 03:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Good Turns: Should be expanded, but I think it will grow beyond this article. Perhaps fold into the History of the Boy Scouts of America. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • This does look like it should be a section of the "History" article. However, this article needs to define a Good Turn. Originally, the term refers to any favor or kindness, but nationwide actions such as the "Good Turn for America" obviously represent something different.

• Advancement and recognition: Needs to be updated from the membership articles. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Other United States Scout organizations: This list is missing any number of groups like Star Scouts America and SpiralScouts, but I'm not sure it should be in this article. Perhaps this needs to be moved to List of Scouting organizations in the United States of America or List of youth organizations in the United States of America and linked. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Concur. --Smack (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• "Impact on American life" - written from American perspective rather than international, e.g. "... Boy Scouts are well known throughout _our_ culture" should be perhaps written as "...are well known throughout American culture" etc. Also I'm not sure about the 11/12 Astronauts comment. Did the 11 specifically identify themselves as scouts or attribute their achievements to scouting? If not it's a random statistical coincidence (albeit unlikely). --Nickj69 16:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That is an awkward sentence. The astronaut info is pulled from the BSA fact sheet that is used as the reference. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorder the sections?

Again, not sure this is right, but I'd change the major sections to something like this:

• Origins ..which leads to the BSA's unique...
• Ideals ..which is implemented by ...
• Program Divisions ..which REALLY is implemented by ...
• Organization

I like that. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

The section on National Council confuses me a bit, does it mean that the Boy Scouts of America (the title of the page) is a non-profit organization known as the National Council, or are they two different things? Does the National Council publish the two magazines referenced? Does it run the museum?

Obviously this needs work. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

The rest of the sections look fine to me, except that Good Turns section does stick out a bit, does a mention of that go under the new Impact on American Life section and the meat of it go into the new page proposed earlier?

At least part should go under Impact. Good thought. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

Wild Pansy 03:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)